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Pkreligion?

(36 posts)

  1. javedsheikh
    Members

    When Halaku Khan invaded Baghdad, the Molvis of the City were involved into a discussion:
    "If crow is Halal or Haram?

    Pakistan is facing the most critical economic, social and political crises of its history and the scholars at the Pkpolitics forum are discussing something absolutely irrelevant, indicating the intellectual bankruptcy.
    Did someone notice how many threads tracing the evolution of religion are under discussion?
    Most it is cut and paste
    Irony is that all these topics have been discussed, concluded, discarded and killed a long time ago at the very forum without any positive outcome.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 3:45 #

  2. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    "When Halaku Khan invaded Baghdad, the Molvis of the City were involved into a discussion:
    "If crow is Halal or Haram?"

    Okay so they should engage in discussion now how to collaborate with halaku khans of today?Pointing weaknesses is easier than providing solution.And your solution to mix crap in cookin not gonna taste better than the same molvies you despise.

    "discarded and killed a long time ago at the very forum without any positive outcome"

    Why you still talkin about it then? over that you have opened a new thread?Lead by example and forget about it.

    :)

    ps.Just my two takaz!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 3:48 #

  3. shahzad1924
    member

    exactly, we have bigger problems than shia vs sunni

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 3:50 #

  4. shikra
    Blocked

    These brainwashed scholars at the forum suffering from religious phobia think if they are doing any service to their religion by discussing the history of Quran, Hadith, Shia, Sunni, Kharji etc. they are totally mistaken.
    The 1400 years history unfolds that the more discussion on religion the more conflicts and hatred.
    This discussion is not for unity but for dividing further.
    Well said by Mr. JS, it is time to find a solution for energy crises, and fight the corruption.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 4:34 #

  5. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    And to fight corruption and energy crisis the best way is to kick out Bhangis from power and for that you need a real revolution which would be violent offcourse cause Bhangis not gonna leave power by turning other cheek and it would be violent mostly for those Bhangis but then again you Bhangis would **** in your pants instead of joining them and would blame islam for it.....lol

    Bhangis are clueless!

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 4:54 #

  6. Anonymous

    Exactly, this halal haram debate is a waste of time, energy and resources and we end up having hatred for each other. None of these discussions solve any problems, instead they create even more. We should have learnt this from our history of 60 years but some poeple on this forum continue to indulge in wasteful discussions.
    You can easily identify individuals who hardly ever participate in a constructive discussion but you should see their excitement when somene starts a halal haram debate. They are all over those threads and encourage and motivate people to participate. On the other, when there is a serious constructive thread, they discourage people by saying "who cares", "sab bakwaas hai", "nothing will change" and other crap like that.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 6:04 #

  7. skyfacts
    Blocked

    PPL having abused and blasphemy over this forum always ignored and wellcomed.
    Implementation of secular agenda and NGOnised analysis is covered with statments like religion should not be discussed here..
    Just tell me what achievement did we made fllowing the present imposed politicle system??nothing and now again discussing this crap all the time,what did it mean??
    The words used are nice to hide the actual brainwashing of secular agenda....
    No Alim was ever engaged in such time of Debate its just a politicla statement by seculars.
    Moreover some ppl over here are paid to right the secular crap day and night..This is never possible to give precious time to discuss day and night secular thoughts..
    In Pakistan these days media is the target to promote westrenised thoughts and the funds already been released..
    You will find this type paid ppl so much worried about the dieying EVIL culture and thoughts and they contineusly using different techniques to fight back and made the brain poluted of the every member at the forum...
    SO PATRIOTIC PAKISTANI MUST DECIDE ABOUT THE PAID AGENTS HERE HOW TO DEAL WITH???
    AND HOW ITS POSSIBLE TO USE MORE THAN ONE ID's TO PRESENT WITH THE SAME THOUGHTS....

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 8:37 #

  8. Heather_Ali
    Member

    Hats off to JS who one's again have pointed in the rite direction. This forum has been infested by low life worms who can only be part of big filth and rotten views of dividing Muslims generally and pakistanis specially.

    We have forgotten about corrupt Zardari and killer Altaf's crimes and are now pre conditioned to Drone attacks ! What a bunch of waste products we pakistanis are!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 8:59 #

  9. Ifzal
    Member

    @Heather Ali:

    When ur foundation is not strong enough then how come the whole building would be? As muslims we should first look at our aqeeda and beliefs. Geebat karna, chugliyan karna etc every body can do this. Important is how to get your basics rite dude and then look forward. Zardari aur Altaf sey bahir aa jao. Kisi ki Gaibat karna aisa hai jaisa k tm apny mary hoye bhai ka gosht khaty ho. isn't it?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:04 #

  10. skyfacts
    Blocked

    khan,
    The people over here use this trick of Hats Off to his own ID.
    This is double ID chakkar to make apny mon miyan mithoo dont respond it..and ignore....

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:11 #

  11. Ifzal
    Member

    Well as u know I am new to this forum thats why I didn't knew it. thanks for the info. I will try to avoid it nxt time.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:15 #

  12. Heather_Ali
    Member

    @khan,
    I am not a dude but a dudess! As regards to your post, I was pointing to the un necessary discussions on the authencity if Quran raised by the so called intellectuals who are creating a rift between all Muslims.
    As regards to zardari and altaf! You may be one of those keen die hard supporter who don't want to discuss these evils but I won't stop to discuss these corrupt and evil people as this is the least I can do as a Muslim female.

    For sky facts!

    You are an idiot! Rukh shaaa mara!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:59 #

  13. Ifzal
    Member

    Skyfacts da kho pukhtana da. der aala. I really appreciate ur effort dudess. Just for the record I am not anyone's fan. I am thinking of bringing some patriotic people together on this forum and form our own party. wat u say pakhy?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 10:21 #

  14. javedsheikh
    Members

    Analyze and examine the contributions of the Muslim Scholars widely known as Ulemas.
    What is their information level?
    For the last 1400 years they are repeating the history of Khilafat-i-Rashida from different angles.
    That’s all.
    Did they introduce any thing new?
    Did they ever produce a new direction for the progress of the Muslim in particular and humanity in general?
    Did they ever suggest a practical scheme to fight social evils?
    Most of their efforts are to declare and prove each other Kafir, Murtad, Wajab-ul-Qatl, Wahabi, American Agent and Indian Spy.
    50% of the Muslims are Kafirs for the other 50% and vice versa.
    Logically 100% Muslims have been pushed to the domain of Kufr.
    Khel Khatam.
    The repetition of history doesn't need any brain exercise.
    Very easy job. Cut and Paste and earn the degree of Scholar.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:25 #

  15. shahzad1924
    member

    and your solution to this problem is....?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:30 #

  16. semirza
    Moderator

    A factor, and one that needs to be closely and critically examined, is a marked extremist approach among a significant section of Muslims to various issues. For instance, many Muslims have a strange sort of obsession with the notion of the enforcement of the Shariah by the state, with the concept of the ‘Islamic state’ and with the call for the establishment of ‘The Caliphate of the Glorious Caliphs’, in that they consider these as the basis of religious progress. They even imagine that if these are not brought about, a Muslim cannot do anything much at all for Islam, although he might still be able to guide people from disbelief to faith.

    This is a wrong approach. It is undoubtedly true that Muslims must, as a duty, seek to mould the state on the lines of Islamic teachings, but this task is certainly not their only concern. In fact, there are numerous other things that Muslims need to do before this.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:33 #

  17. shahzad1924
    member

    "This is a wrong approach"

    how?

    "It is undoubtedly true that Muslims must, as a duty, seek to mould the state on the lines of Islamic teachings"

    where do you get this from?

    "In fact, there are numerous other things that Muslims need to do before this"

    examples?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:36 #

  18. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    But mirza ji do you think there are not many good hearted muslims who are already doin their best to survive and help others to survive....But Is it working as a system? What benefit that kindaf charity brought to the average person throughout the country?

    For the good peoples work to be acknowledged and bringing up new wave of "good peoples" work one has to have a working system and hence the call for that system!

    Which system you would personally like? Current, Bhangi Kiyani- The Gandhi's system or Zardari Bhangis secularism?

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:39 #

  19. semirza
    Moderator

    Moral bankrupt masses, including me as well as you, should be our prime concern before we even think of re-establishment of Khilafa!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:46 #

  20. javedsheikh
    Members

    1. It is time to fight the brainwashed mentality which is prone to declare most of the realistic persons like Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, M.A. Jinnah, Allama Iqbal as Kafir.
    2. It is time to fight those who create hurdles and speed breakers to slow down the progress in the name of religion.
    3. It is time to preach for tolerance and unity.
    4. It is time to reject the non-productive traditions and emotionalism.
    5. It is time to acknowledge and accept the universally recognized principles for a decent and better living.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:47 #

  21. shahzad1924
    member

    @javedsheikh

    what do you acheive with 1?

    how do you do 2, 3, 4 and 5?

    and btw, what does "universally recognized principles for a decent and better living" mean. who defines what is universally recognized?

    @semirza

    and how do we do that. what indicators will tell you that the masses are not morally bankrupt anymore. i mean if we decide to put our efforts in a particular direction we should have some milestones that are tangible. we should have some indicator that would tell us that 25% of the masses are morally good and so on until we reach a stage where we can start thinking of establishing a khilafah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 11:54 #

  22. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    moral bankruptcy is a relative term.You would then again have to define it according to particular set of thoughts.Again ones moral bankruptcy could be the most cherished and preserved cultural peak of the other.Example,homosexuality is promoted and quite acceptable in western world but say in russia call some one "homo" and watch him punch you in anger.He wont have to be even muslim.So again I would say whichever is the case the system has to be brought forward first and then the laws can be enforced by that system for the people living in it to follow.Without system , charity or moral righteousness wont work either.

    Plus what model of system JS is presenting? I mean again the line would end with the words "what system?" or "which system?".You must chose it first! and then according to that system "moral correctness" or whatever code is presented can be implemented.So secular moral correctness is acceptable?Then be ready to see more of Begum Nawazish Ali's...Would you like that for your son?

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 12:19 #

  23. semirza
    Moderator

    Again thinking of masses while all the way forgetting your own self!
    This is not an addition to what JS has already suggested:

    1.IMPROVE your level of EDUCATION, to achieve SELF IMPROVEMENT and FOR the BENEFIT to OTHERS.
    2.IDENTIFY among FRIENDS and FOES.
    3.PROMOTE Unity and Tolerance ‘ HONESTLY
    4.REJECT Personality Cults
    5.ERADICATE diety rituals from among your kith and kin.
    6.NEVER FORGET ‘Hakooq Al Eiba’ad’.
    7.LIVE and LET LIVE with PEACE and HARMONEY
    8.Be a ROLE MODEL for Muslims, and others to OBSERVE Practiced Islam.
    9.REMEMBER Allah (ST) and his CREATIONS are never without a PURPOSE

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 12:33 #

  24. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    And then wait for mehdi to make it work alright automatically.Talking about others is important because those others are in authority! What system they are following?Are they following your nine points? Plus the point here is to what level the moral correctness of me would work?

    If I try all your nine points would that change the system? I have never hurt anybody rather have helped people but did that make any difference to the people who have authority? It offcourse can change my life and my kith n kins but What those people are doin' that are in authority and right people like you are just advising me to correct myself which already would not make much difference.The moral bankkruptcy of those people in authority counts mirza ji...ours comes at second place be sure of that.Individual moral bankruptcy can hurt few people but System's moral bankruptcy would hurt everybody.Point to be noted!

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 12:41 #

  25. semirza
    Moderator

    My dear, keeping 'elites in authority' aside, lets focus on
    having improvement in our minds:

    our self
    our kith and kin
    our friends
    our immediate surroundings
    our localities
    our areas
    our villages
    our towns
    our cities
    our provinces
    our country
    and Ummah
    Remember you will only attract to yourself 'the likes of you'!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 12:47 #

  26. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    Okay agreed !
    what next?

    When i was 13 year old i came up with the idea of "welfare society".We kids use to spend our pocket money and collect money (few rupees though) from others too and see what needs to be done in our locality.we used to find people that are in utter misery and see if that lil money could help them.It might have given them food or some temporary relief but did that work?Those people would still be living in misery i suppose cause there is no system and after all we were only kids.That idea flopped badly though the struggle went on till my college and university level.It didnt make penny's difference to that system.Millions of people are still living in misery cause of whom? Me? or those 'others'?

    I can easily neglect 'Elites' or can easily give them a rat's **** but then again even talkin about it would bring question of me being morally bankrupt?It doesnt make sense.Plus it sounds like telling a "challi farosh" that hasool-i-rizq-i-halal ibadat hey...that poor fck is already workin his arse off to survive and surviving positively.But the people in authority;are they listening to 'halal earning" advice? answer is NO!

    So again bottom line would be what to do? I tried your nine points or would improve further.Did that make Pakistan a paradise?

    Like I said earlier the line would end with "what system?" which system must be brought as an alternative to over throw these 'others'...!

    self-hatred or blaming oneself wont change it either!

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 13:06 #

  27. shahzad1924
    member

    okay, i get what you are trying to say and i dont have any issue with it. the only thing im asking is the indicators. what are we working for? what will happen?

    we need to know the indicators that would indicate that our work is going in the positive direction or not and that whether we have achieved our goal or not.

    do you get what im trying to say?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 13:08 #

  28. skyfacts
    Blocked

    ((((Analyze and examine the contributions of the Muslim Scholars widely known as Ulemas.
    What is their information level?
    For the last 1400 years they are repeating the history of Khilafat-i-Rashida from different angles.
    That’s all.
    Did they introduce any thing new?
    Did they ever produce a new direction for the progress of the Muslim in particular and humanity in general?)))
    ================================================================
    MUSLIM ULEMA HAS ALREADY FULFILLING THEIR DUTIES AS REGARDS TO RELIGION..AND SOME NONSENSE ORDINARY PEOPLE HAVING DIFFERENCES ARE NOT RECOGNISED AS ACTS OF MUSLIM ULEMA.

    Muslim scholars or ulema dont have such duties to invent any thing but the religious duty to make available all ur needs in religious field..to cope with the new chanleges and fitna raises time to time.

    This type of question and expectation or demand from a person is just an abnormal case.

    We have the religion and its books and teachings available all the time.
    The moderen chalenges also given solutions in light of ISLAM and a contineous search is going on.But people having approach to think about PAIT and comfort and life will never understand this type of any development usefull,nor they have any knowledge about it..
    The rest of the development was the goal of the politicle or ruling class which is still to be achieved..
    Religious development and work may be clear from the crying and sad faces of the people want a decline in religious ideology....They are open all the time to utter words like this is a hurdle in development......

    KHILAFAT OR MOVEMENTS AGAINST GOVTS IS THE TARGET TO HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DEVELOP IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE .........................

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 13:12 #

  29. semirza
    Moderator

    I am able to fully comprehend the frustration you hold against the so called 'others'.

    Your example of a 'challi wala' and his meager earnings are certainly rizk-i-halal, could be a fact but the real point being discussed here is 'moral bankruptcy' at an individual level.

    I had asked myself and others to follow what I stated earlier so that:

    I am not lying.....hopefully the others will not
    I am not cheating....the others will not
    I am not stealing....the others will not
    I don’t offer bribes.....I can’t be bribed...the other will follow

    When I wont be doing all this, and the others will take example It becomes clear that the 'moral evils' that have plagued our societies such as lying, cheating, stealing, bribes etc etc will sure be arrested; after all these evils lead to much bigger evils.

    Moral values at an individual level cannot be overlooked. Individuals add up into a nation!

    From Punjab, just due to the 'power of vote' a 'tandoor wala' was elected as an MPA. Imagine this simple tandoor wala 'that poor fck who is already working his arse off' is also a junky (heroine addict) than what will happen; exactly that what is happening now!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 13:41 #

  30. Anonymous

    We have to get focused. We have to getfocused on four things:
    1) Good health care
    2) Good education
    3) Law and Order
    4) Better economy

    Ignore everything else and do everything to achieve the 4 goals. When socities are not focused and directionless, people tend to engage in useless debates. When society in general and government in particular is focused, general public will automatically start focusing on issues that matter rather than the issues related to halal haram. We need action and movement.

    A clear example is Swat issue. There has been endless dicusion and debates on swat issue. Once the operation started and life starts getting back to normal, we can clearly see there is hardly any discussion on Swat anymore. If government starts focusing on education, health, economy we will see a shift in public priorities as well. It is all about priorities and actions!

    We must not confront anyone, instead we must be focused towards our goals. Kaam, Kaam aur sirf Kaam. This way there will be no need for confrontation because the issues that cause confrontation will automatically become less important and low priority ones.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:00 #

  31. semirza
    Moderator

    How come pkreligion is reverting back to pkpolitics? Good bsobaid.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:04 #

  32. rocketrevolt
    Blocked

    Sobaid Bhangi writes:
    "
    focus
    1) Good health care
    2) Good education
    3) Law and Order
    4) Better economy"

    How to focus? and Who would focus?

    and Mirza ji personal change would effect 90% personal matters.Change has to come to the system and for that an alternative solution for system must be given.So My question for JS would be when he's gonna reduce his fat arse and put himself to work for the system change?I mean real work not just talking crap.We have loads of talkers and bullshitters penny-brain thinkers.And what secular mullahs gonna give different than regular mullahs?

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 3:23 #

  33. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Secular ones just want used the trick of propaganda against religious persons to prove that they are good alternatives but religious ppl are not responsible for the duties they are hited for.They have well established their roots in the siciety through best efforts for the society and 99 % of the ppl accept these efforts.
    Rest of the mental slaves i would just say,let them BARK at the carvan.......

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 10:55 #

  34. shahzad1924
    member

    @bsobaid

    "We have to get focused. We have to getfocused on four things:
    1) Good health care
    2) Good education
    3) Law and Order
    4) Better economy"

    and how do we do that?

    yaar, aik gattar kholna ho to local council walon ko bulana parta hai...these are big tasks. how can we do all these things?

    on second thoughts, lets first discuss about society. how do you define "society"? then we will move on to the methods of changing the society.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 11:08 #

  35. Anonymous

    shahzad
    By we I meant all Pakistanis but it is usually government who sets the agend of discussion. Government priorities set the agenda for general discussion among public.
    During Bhutto times, it was awami rights and socialism vs islam. In Zia times it was jihaad and namaz. During NS and BB times it was national politics and governance. During Musharraf times it was terror war and enlightened moderation and in today's times it is Taliban and governance.

    We all have to do what we can do in our domains. We at pkpolitics should discuss how to make improvements in all 4 areas instead of discussing validity of ahadees and quran and fiqh. I dont understand what we can achieve by fighting each other over the validity of ahadees, quran and fiqh. If someone does not believe in Quran or Hadees, does that make these two scriptures less sacred? Does anyone denying authenticity of Ahadees make Bokhari and Sahah Satta less credible? Even if we convince one or the other over validity (or invalidity) of any of these books, how does it help us improve our health care and literacy rate? How does that help us make IT professionals and engineers? How does that giev us good governance? Does either one of these noble scriptures ask or expect government to not provide public good health care or education? Do any of these books have conflicting instructions on how to reduce our infant mortality rate? Which book of fiqh tells us how to improve level of education in our industries? Which hadees tell us about increasing our exports? Does Bokhari and Daood have conflicting instructions over providing good governance?
    I dont udnerstand with so many problems in our hands, why we waste our time comparing jihaad details described in Anfaal and ahadees? What purpose does it serve?

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 21:25 #

  36. shahzad1924
    member

    and your answer to my second question about "society" ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:44 #

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