Practicing And Non-Practicing « PKPolitics Discuss

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Practicing And Non-Practicing

(41 posts)

shikra
Blocked

Who served the Muslim Ummah in particular and Humanity in general, more effectively?
Practicing Muslims or Non-Practicing Muslims?

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 2:02 #
chechen
Member

there is nothing called non practicing Muslims. It goes against the definition of word Muslim.

One example: Ask the Jews of Sarajevo, Bosnia and Morocco that prospered and lived under the Ottomans after they were expelled from Spain during inquisition. No European country gave them asylum. As a matter of fact they were sided Spain and turned their backs on any refugee. They found refuge in Muslims lands after the catholics let lose a reign of terror in Spain killing, and exoling all who were non-catholics.

Once again repeating the famous article by Carly Fiorina

Enlightened civilizations by Carly Fiorina (HP's former CEO after 9/11)

There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world. It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to ocean, and from northern climates to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins. One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of people of many nationalities. Its military protection allowed a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of this civilization's commerce extended from Latin America to China, and everywhere in between.

This civilization was driven, more than anything, by invention. Its architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration. Its writers created thousands of stories - stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things.

When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive and passed it on to others. While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.

Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not exist without the contributions of Muslim mathematicians. And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It Was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population that included Christianity, Islamic and Jewish traditions.

This kind of enlightened leadership - leadership that Nurtured culture, sustainability, diversity and courage - led to 800 years of invention and prosperity. In dark and serious times like this, we must affirm our Commitment to building societies and institutions that aspire to this kind of greatness. More than ever, we must focus on the importance of leadership - bold acts of leadership and decidedly personal acts of leadership. With that, I'd like to open up the conversation and see what we collectively believe about the role of leadership.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 2:14 #
shikra
Blocked

Chechan,
Good article.
I would like to ask where you will place the Great Muslim leaders like Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Qauid-i-Azam, Allama Iqbal, Liaqat Ali Khan, Abul-Kalam Azad, Maulana Moudoodi, Allama Mashraqi, Maulana Mufti Mahmood, Z.A. Bhutto, Maulan Shah Ahmad Noorani, Khan Abdul Ghuffar Khan and Maulana Bhashani?
Out of this lot who delivered something more positive to the Muslim Ummah?
Who was more sincere to Pakistan and Islam?

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 2:49 #
chechen
Member

I will not include the politicians. The rest did whatever they could. Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan wanted separate Pakhtunistan and was always cozy with Indians as if they were his well wishers. Don't know about Bhashani.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 2:56 #
zia m
Member

I think the question should be if Humanity in general and Muslim society in particular benefited the most under moderate Muslims or fundamentalists(extremists).
The answer in my opinion is moderate Muslims.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 3:08 #
chechen
Member

Not at all. The article by Carly clearly states the indebtness of Islamic civilization to humaity at large and ithappened during the era when Muslims were "fundus" as per your warped thinking.

The period of that zenith of Islamic civilization was when Shariah was the law of the land that enabled progress, tolerance and harmony.

The so called Moderate Muslims never existed in Islamic history except after the colonialization. These moderates are puppets that are deliberately left behind by retreating colonialists for long term interest.

Just look at the disaster of Turkey, where the domla Jew Ata Turk dismantled Khilafa by collaborating with the West and preching fake nationalism. After 70 years of secularism and moderate rule, Turkey is still standing with begging bowl to be accepted in European Union. It is neither East nor West and are living like animals aping the decadent West.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 3:20 #
shikra
Blocked

Zia M,
Thanks for your wise suggestion.
Yes we should evaluate the contributions of Moderate Muslims and Fundamentalist Muslims for humanity.
The achievements of Liberal Muslims are more productive and positive as a whole where the fundamentalists mostly created division and problems for the State and Society.
This could be a very interesting study.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 3:45 #
zia m
Member

Khalifa Al-Mamun established the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.
He spent huge amounts of money on scholars who were translating Greek and helenistic literature.
Ibn Rushd and Ibns Sina were moderate Muslims.Al Ghazali on the other hand was orthodox.(He was against aristotlean philosophy).Muslim orthodoxy is one of the reasons for decline of Islamic civilization.
Al-Mamun believed in "The ink of a scholar is holier than the blood of martyr"
When Ghaznavid came in power every thing changed.Mongol invasion also had a major impact on Islamic decline.

Similarly in the West (AL-Andulas).Abdur Rehman 111 and his son were very tolerant,during their rule Jews migrated to Al Andalus to avoid prosecution from Christians.
After their fall Al-Mohads took over and started prosecuting the Jews.

In India after Aurangzeb took over the Mughal Empire started to fall apart.
Islam has suffered a lot due to its orthodox rulers.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 3:53 #
Sahnaz
Member

chechen

hv u ever been to Turkey????

well if u nt u must go there n c how develop it is now. c the infrastructure n suprastructre there. n c how friendly society it is. well Ata Turk is a cause of pride fr them. Go to Turkey n say a bad word abt him n i bet u will regret fr tht.

Turkey is nation to be followed by other muslim countries.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 3:59 #
shikra
Blocked

According to my research most of the rulers, philosophers, scientists, political leaders and social reformers in the Islamic History, were very broad minded, moderate and liberal.

Whatever achievements in the fields of Art, Culture, Paintings, Music, Literature, Science, Medicine and Sports, we as Muslims feel proud of, are the dedications from the moderate and liberal Muslims.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 4:11 #
chechen
Member

shikra,

Let us talk about Turkish model that has been the prime focus and role model of so called Liberal Muslims. It was he who crated divisions in his quest for nationalism that was alien to the spirit of Islam. Ata Turk the so called father of Turks was a domla jew supposedly converted to Islam. He was a agent implanted by West to dismantle Khilafa. Although nominal it kept all the Muslim states under one banner from Morocco to Iraq.

Ata Turk preached the fake model of nationalism aping the Europeans. There was no place for nationalism in Islam but he invented the Turkish nationalism. If you refer to any dictionary the name Turk is synonymous with Muslim and not ethnic race. Even if we agree to Turkish speaking Muslims who originated from Central Asia, Ata Turk conveniently forgot his own ancestors from Central Asia. There are more "Turks" living outside Turkey than in Turkey. As most Turks including the Uighurs of China were under communism, Ata Turk completely ignored his own kith and kin.

This nationalism cult spearheaded by Turks incited the Arabs to their own rotten nationalism and a chain reaction followed and you see th edisastrouns results. It is ironic that the same nationalistic Europeans are in forefront of globalization and Europen Unuion with one passport and one currecny due to economic necessity but our Muslim brothers dismantled Khilafa pleasing the West. It is about time to return to Khilafa to save ourselves from doom.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 4:44 #
shahzad1924
member

"He is not one of us who calls for Nationalism (asabiyyah) or who fights for nationalism or who dies for nationalism." Hadith Narrated by Abu Dawood

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 4:50 #
chechen
Member

I spent time in Turkey and cried for their future. They are suffering identity crisis. They are neither East nor West. They are cut off from the great civilization of their forefathers by changing the alphabet. They don't know their history. The decadent western lifestyle has devastated their culture and they are still the "sick man" of Europe as they were given that name by Europeans in 19th century.

In spite of changing their language, script, dress, political and social affiliation in line with Europeans they are so far denied entry into European Union. Look how Europeans accepted their NATO membership to use their troops as canon fodder against Russians but denied them EU membership. They never fopught against Russia and now the Turkish army is in Afghanistan at the behest of NATO and US war criminals. But rest assured they will never be accepted as Europeans. They are standing at gates of Europe with begging bowl and will keep standing until eternity but will never be accepted.

Also taka a clue from Bosnian Muslims as to how they were treated. They were Europeans in language, culture, ethnicity and drank and ate pork like their neigbors but remained Muslims just by name. Hundreds of thousands were massacred, murdered and raped in atrocities committed that were worse than Hitler. Just because they were Muslims.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 4:55 #
zia m
Member

@Chechen,
The article you quoted by Carly is not about Ataturk,it is about Golden Age of Islam.
I do have to give you credit for your honesty,while there are others here who are guilty of plagiarism.You did attribute the article to its author.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 4:57 #
chechen
Member

zia,

I vehemently oppose nationalism that is root cause for all problems of Ummah. And the Turks were responsible for that disease to get foothold in Muslim world.

Just take few seconds and see a dictionary about the meaning of word "turk". It meant Muslim. In large parts of India, Muslims are referred to still as "turks" by Hindus. The Turks injected nationalism coiped from West and thrust it at the throats of the ignorant Muslims that were fresh from colonial onslaught. As Allam Iqbal said after the dismeemberment of Khilafa in 1923

Utha kar phek di Turk e Naddan ne Khialfa ki chob ko
Apnon ki nadaani bhee dekh auron ki ayyari bhee dekh

The ignorant Turk has thrown away the mantle of Caliphate
look at the our ignorance and look at other's cunning

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:08 #
zia m
Member

Muslims all over the world are sandwiched between religious fundamentalism on one side and western imperialism and neo-coloniasm on the other.They need to rise above both to create a peaceful world...These are the words of a very wise friend of mine.I believe this is very true.
Khalifa is not the answer we need some fresh ideas.We have to start producing more scientist to catch up with the rest of the world.Look at Saudis with all their money they are opposing science.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:29 #
chechen
Member

The West will never allow environment conducive to scienctific growth and development. Case in point is saudi arabia. It is totally under grip of Uncle Sam. It has become the biggest cosumer nation. Whatever oil money is generated is recycles back to US. Billions of worth of armaments are bought and the US car industry sells all the gaz guzzlers to saudis. Even the railroad projects in Saudi Arabia were discouraged and stopped by US presuure. Instead highways were constructed as first priority to make room for auto industry. Although one of the first railway line in history was constructed during the Ottoman Khilafa from Istanbul to Madina but was sabotaged by the stupid Arabs, that were manipulated by Lawrence of Arabia.

Every year Saudi gets billions of dollar of arms. What for? Fight against whom? When time to fight Saddam came they "invited" foreign trrops to their soil which got Bin Laden mad. Saudis are not opposing science they are opposing Islam. They are using shhriah to control the masses. There is no monarhcy in Islam in the first place.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:39 #
shahzad1924
member

look, nobody is going to take the word of your friend however wise he may be. you gotta give reasons.

and it looks as if you are trying to correlate between "religious fundamentalism" and khilafah. the term "religious fundamentalism" is not from Islam, it is a term coined by the west for a particular purpose. so frankly its very naive to use such terms and link it to concepts such as khilafah.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:41 #
shahzad1924
member

"Although one of the first railway line in history was constructed during the Ottoman Khilafa from Istanbul to Madina but was sabotaged by the stupid Arabs, that were manipulated by Lawrence of Arabia."

here is an article about the hejaz railroad.

http://islamicsystem.blogspot.com/2008/05/hejaz-railroad-symbol-of-muslim.html

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:43 #
chechen
Member

Jazakallah Shahzad,

Lawrence of Arabia convinced the ignorant tribal Arabs that the Turks were "foreigners' and exploiting the Arab lands and using railway to transport troops from mainland Turkey to control vast expanse of Arabian desert. They never credited the Turks about ease of pilgrimage. Even to this day, Turks have one of the largest Haj contingment.

I visited a old Turkish fort near Yemen border inside Saudi Arabia. The Turks left soone after the collapse of Khiafa burying their weapons. The locals still comb the area search the area hoping find that "treasure". But most disgusting attitude of the saudis is that they ask the guides not to talk about Turkish history. They were ruled by Ottomans for over 500 years and there is nothing in their history books. It starts with Prophet Sas and some early Khalifs and directly to King Abdul Aziz, the saudi monarch who founded the Kingdom. All in between is big blank. This is to encourage saudization. No wonder good citizens of that country hate the word "saudi" and call themslves just Muslims.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:57 #
zia m
Member

We can keep blaming the West or America for all our ills or start doing some introspection.We don't lack talent.We lack tolerance to accomodate people with different point of view.
Take the example of Abdus Salam,he was respected in the international scientific community.We treated him badly just because of his religious views.Our orthodoxy will always keep us backwards.Just my opinion.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 5:58 #
chechen
Member

No one is blaming the West. Just ask them to leave us alone. They are all over you from Saudi to Iraq to Afghanistan. Why? neo-colonialism? Right?

West cannot survive on its own unless it changes its dof eat dog materialistic lifestyle. It produces 10% of world's resources and consumes 80%. They need lands to plunder and exploit. Not that simple Zia.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:02 #
shahzad1924
member

@chechen

wa iyyakum

"No wonder good citizens of that country hate the word "saudi" and call themslves just Muslims."

Subhan Allah!

@zia m

Abdus Salam was not treated badly in the khilafah.

i hope you get the point

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:03 #
talalkhan
Member

Shikra and Zia m!
i agree with you.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:07 #
zia m
Member

Ibn Rushd was declared heretic during your so called khilafa and run for his life.I guess Abdus salam was treated a little better.He was lucky it was not khilafat he could have been beheaded.
Ibn Haythem had to fake insanity during Khilafat.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:09 #
shahzad1924
member

whats your point?

nobody is calling towards the ummayyad, abbasid and ottoman caliphates.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:14 #
chechen
Member

Agreed it was so called Khilafa not orthodox Khilafa. As a matter of fact it was heriditary monarchy. But the days of orthodox Khilafa are coming back.

Nothing you or combinmed might of mankind can do to stop it

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:14 #
zia m
Member

The point is either we can face reality or live in fantasy land.The choice is ours the consequences are dire.Muslims are killing Muslims and we keep blaming others.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:19 #
shahzad1924
member

o bhai! doosri line bhi parhni thi!

"nobody is calling towards the ummayyad, abbasid and ottoman caliphates."

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:24 #
zia m
Member

Oh,you mean UTOPIAN KHALIFA........

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:28 #
shahzad1924
member

there is no utopian khilafah.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:30 #
NNL
member

Atta Turk

He is indeed one of the most known figure that proudly ruined the Islamic Khilafaa and destroyed everything that is related to Islam!! Closing Islamic Schools, banning Arabic language, spreading turkish nationalism and superiority and etc.

Only an ignorant or a blind following nationalist or a secular or someone who lives in the space and never knew anything about earth will praise such character!

May Allah punish him what he deserves to be punished.

Wallahu A'lam

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 6:58 #
DeadlyHonest
member

(((The achievements of Liberal Muslims are more productive and positive as a whole where the fundamentalists mostly created division and problems for the State and Society.)))

Differences mentioned are at bottom level where ordinary ppl living.In Pakistan and all over the world there is no such division created by the top Religious leaders...
DIVIDE AND RULE POLICY WAS IN ACTION IN PAST.....
aT PAKISTAN LEVEL ALL THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS WERE THEIR AND UNITED.......

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 8:02 #
Revivalist
member

Well done Bro Chechen and shahzad, the problem with these guys is that they prove and disprove Islam at the same time. They don’t have a clear reference point rather they wear western glasses and trying to judge Islam making west as their yardstick. Unless we believe that we are Muslims not moderate Muslim or extremist Muslims etc and make Islam as our reference point for each and every issue of our life we can not reach to a positive conclusion and it seems that these guys are not interested in Islam rather what they are interested in is attacking Islam for all these crap and baseless reason which they get from here and there in some propaganda and anti Islamic websites....

Little correction, I wont agree to the laqab given to Mustafa kamal as 'Ata-Turk' he was indeed "Ata-Kufr"!!!!!

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 8:04 #
shikra
Blocked

Every thread is twisted at the end to one and only one point:
Submission to Allah without using the brain.
Actually what they are preaching it is not submission to Allah but submission to Mullah.
Each time we reach the same dead end.
The question, Why the fundamentalists could not deliver much to the humanity as compared to liberal, secular and moderate Muslims, is still unanswered.
1. Who caused and created over 72 clans of the Muslims?
2. Why the Muslims could not achieve a position to dictate the West?
3. Why the Western Secular States got more healthy and powerful than the Muslim dominated States?
4. Why the pace, progress and the pattern of life is more attractive and comparatively peaceful in secular, and liberal society than the Muslim dominated States?
5. Why the Muslim Society is always defensive?
6. Why Muslims are behave like a melon and not knife?
Please Don't repeat the pages from the Past History.
Look at the ground reality.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 9:57 #
msohail83
Member

Shikri,

Since you're mr know-it-all, why don't you spare us ignorant closed minded people and enjoy your 'liberal' life?

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 10:04 #
shikra
Blocked

Why don't you put the same advice to those close minded ignorant people to live and let live?
A vast majority of the human beings want to enjoy a peaceful and tolerant life.
Why your favorites are creating hurdles to block the flow of normal life?
Allah has blessed the liberals with all sort of facilities of life, indicating that He has approved their way of life.
The close minded people are frustrated because they are working something against the Real Will of Allah, the Creator of the Universe Who knows how to manage and operate.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 10:23 #
msohail83
Member

How do you know whether someone is working for or against the will of Allah??

Are you omniscient?

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 10:30 #
Revivalist
member

shikra,

When we will establish Islamic khilafah then we will tell you what progress is, what is justice, what is tranquility etc. The reason why Muslim world is backward is because of western secularism/democracy and capitalism and because of the western duplicity and hypocrisy. They have installed puppet regimes in the Muslim world and are killing people, looting their resources and want them to live by their terms. Those who expose their evil designs are then labeled as Fundamentalist, extremist and trouble makers. In Iraq people who are opposing the western colonialism and challenging their hegemony are known as trouble makers but at the same time the ruling class is labeled as moderate, peace loving, progressive. HOW SHAMFULL and IRONIC the secular west is!!!! Their only criterion is ‘benefit’ nothing else and for that they can even sell their mothers let alone killing innocent human beings!!!!!

The day khilafah state will establish you will see with your own eyes capitalism falling like spider’s web, as it has already lost the battle of ideas and failed to win hearts!!!! Look at the world around you and you will see billions suffering because of your evil ideology!!! So stop being evil and devils advocate and use your brain cells to understand things that are very simple to understand!!!

Get the truth before it gets you!!!!

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 10:58 #
chechen
Member

Shikra says: A vast majority of the human beings want to enjoy a peaceful and tolerant life.

Sure I want to live like that. But ask West to leave us alone. They are all over you from Saudi to Iraq to Afghanistan.

But the track record of West is dismal in this respect. They are still creating nuisance with their neo-colonialistic mindset. Dr. Morad Hoffman, the German ambassador who embraced Islam said in his famous speech after 9/11. He did not find any fault with so called Muslim extremists.

Let us now take a good look at the record of that marvelous, self-appointed center of rationality, the enlightened Western world. Since the 18th century, in contrast to the high ideals pronounced and exported, what one discovers in terms of actual behavior is highly disturbing: Slave-trading, extermination of native populations-100 Million, apartheid and colonialistic adventures-countless millions killed; two savage world wars-75 million killed ; Stalinist massacres-29 million killed and the Nazi holocaust-6 million ; ethnic (in reality, religious) cleansing in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kosova and atomic warfare against civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

These disasters were the bloodiest the world has ever seen. But even if Western people were not at war with each other, they have behaved violently against nature: against animals, plants and even minerals-to the point that the destruction of resources and environmental disasters like air pollution threaten the survival of mankind.
None of the bloody excesses I mentioned took place in the Muslim world; and yet the West, in spite of such a record, has the nerve to ask the rest of the world to follow its example and to deny not only the existence, but also the possibility, of an alternative. You will now perhaps understand that I called one of my books, published in 1992, "Islam: The Alternative," out of sheer disgust with Western hubris!
So there are many good reasons for rejecting the West.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 11:09 #
Rider21
Member

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Aug 2009 4:00 #