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Preservation of Quran

(38 posts)
  1. Ifzal
    Member

    How Quran was preserved?

    For the first twenty-three years the Prophet himself was the fountainhead of Qur’anic learning. Then he appointed certain of his followers to convey the message of the Qur’an after him. These were men who, having memorized the entire Quranic text with complete accuracy, were fully competent to impart its teachings.

    The Prophet always arranged for each passage of the Qur’an to be recorded in writing as soon as it was revealed. This kitabat (writing down on paper) was so meticulous a procedure that after verse 95 of chapter 4 had been revealed, and the words “except those who are disabled” were revealed again as an addition to the same verse, it was arranged that this phrase—according to Imam Malik—be written at the same moment by the transcriber. (Durr Mansoor, Vol. 2, p.203)

    It was customary for the Prophet to ask the transcriber to read out the verses after writing them down. According to Zayd ibn Thabit, if any part was missed out in the writing, he would correct it and only after this written work was fully completed would the Prophet allow the propagation of those verses (Majmauz Zawaid, vol.I, p. 60).

    The number of transcribers who worked at different times is put at forty-two. According to Ibn Abdul Bar, Hanzala ibn Rabi was the chief transcriber. He was asked to remain in the company of the Prophet at all times (Aqd Al-Farid, v. 4, p. 114), a foolproof arrangement whereby a number of the companions possessed passages of the Qur’an in written form by the time of the Prophet’s death. A sizeable number, four of whom are worth mentioning: Abu Darda, Muaz ibn Jabal, Zayd ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd even possessed the complete Qur’an in its present arrangement.

    It has been established from authentic traditions that the angel Gabriel, who conveyed the revelations of God to the Prophet, himself arranged these verses: each year during the month of Ramadan, Gabriel would come to the Prophet and recite before him all the Quranic verses revealed up till that time in the order in which they exist today, after which the Prophet would repeat the verses in exactly the same order. This dual process has been termed al-Irza, ‘mutual presentation,’ in the books of hadith.

    It has also been established that in the last year of the Prophet’s life, when the revelations had been completed, Gabriel came to the Prophet and recited the entire Qur’an in the existing order twice, and similarly the Prophet also recited to Gabriel the entire Qur’an twice. This final presentation is called al-Arz al-Akhirah in the books of hadith. (Fathul Bari, p. 659-663)

    When by the help of Gabriel the Qur’an was fully and systematically arranged, the Prophet recited it to his companions on different occasions in the order with which we are familiar today. The Qur’an was thus preserved in its pristine form in the memories of tens of thousands of the companions during the Prophet’s lifetime.

    The preservation of the Qur’an passed through three stages: transcription, compilation and collection. In the first stage, as soon as a chapter or a verse was revealed, it was committed to writing. The following items are mentioned in books as examples of the writing materials used:

    Riqa‘a—Thin leather piece
    Likhaf—Thin slates of white stone
    Katf—The round bone of the shoulder of the camel
    'Asib—The wide part of the root of the date branch.

    In the hadith, the second stage of this process is referred to as “compilation.” That is, first the verses were written down at the time of revelation. Then, when one chapter was completed, the whole chapter (often it took several revelations to complete one chapter) was written in compiled form, i.e. arranged in proper order on riqa‘a (leather). Such copies of the compiled Qur’an (complete or incomplete) were in the possession of a large number of people during the lifetime of the Prophet. We have the well-known incident of Umar who beat his own sister and brother-in-law mercilessly for having accepted Islam. Finally, when his anger had subsided, he asked them to show him the book they were reading from. His sister replied that he could not touch it in a state of impurity and only after he had bathed himself did his sister give him the book (Ibn Hisham).

    The third stage of this process is termed “Collection” that is, writing down the entire Qur’an together in one volume. The form of the bound volume consisting of pages of the same size was not prevalent in the Prophet’s time. According to a narration recorded by Bukhari, only four companions Ubayy ibn Kaab, Muadh ibn Jabal, Abu Zayd, and Zayd ibn Thabit had the entire Qur’an put together during the life of the Prophet. In Kanz al Ummal, referring to Muhammad, Ibn Kab Al-Qurzi gives us the names of five such collectors of the complete Qur’an. However the status of their collections was that of a personal possession. The official version was produced under the direction of the caliph Abu Bakr, who had it bound after arranging for all the verses to be written on square papers of the same size. Imam Malik has also recorded (citing as his source, Shahab Zahri, who had learned it from Salim, son of Abdullah ibn Umar,) that Zayd ibn Thabit wrote down all the verses of the Qur’an on al-Qaratis (papers of the same size) at the command of Abu Bakr. This volume was called Raba‘a (square). (Itqan, v. 1, pp. 84-85)

    It is said that during the caliphate of Umar Faruq there were more than one hundred thousand copies of the Qur’an in circulation in Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Yemen, etc.

    In later times the written Qur’an became the main source of Islamic learning. But one danger was still lurking. In sacred books even very minor differences can become a source of great controversy. It was feared that if people wrote the Qur’an on their own, differences in transcribing (kitabat) e.g. writing ‘eether’ for ‘either’ and in recitation would create widespread dissension and there would be no way of putting an end to it. For instance, just one word in the first chapter of the Qur’an was written in different ways according to the pronunciation of different dialects: maalik-e-yaumuddin, malik-e-yaumuddin and maleek-e-yaumuddin, etc.; with the passing of time and changes in the style of writing, the differences in the manuscript would have become a source of great contention. Therefore, on the advice of Umar, Abu Bakr decided to have an authentic copy of the Qur’an prepared under state patronage and thus put an end forever to the possibility of phonetic differences obscuring the true meaning of the text.

    For this purpose Zayd ibn Thabit was the most competent, as he was the katib of the Prophet. Zayd and Ubayy ibn Kaab both had joined in the ‘last recitation’ having heard the Qur’an directly from the Prophet in the order still extant today. Not only had they memorized the entire Qur’an, but they also possessed the whole text in written form. The first caliph commanded them to collect all the available parts of the scriptures and to compile them. (Bukhari). After this decision had been taken, Umar made an announcement in the Mosque that whoever had any piece of writing from the Qur’an should bring it and hand it over to Zayd.

    During the first caliphate, the Qur’an not only existed in written form on the bark of date palms, stones, leather, etc, but was also preserved in the memory of the companions. The Qur’an, when made into a book, was arranged in the order memorized by the companions, and the verses have been preserved in that same order right up to the present day.

    Zayd ibn Thabit’s work was more a process of collection than of compilation. That is, the scattered bits and pieces of the Qur’an in written form were collected by him, not just to be assembled and bound in one volume, but to be used to verify the authenticity of the Qur’an as memorized and passed on in oral tradition by countless individuals. Once this exact correspondence between the oral and written forms of the Qur’an had been established beyond any reasonable doubt, Zayd proceeded to put the verses of the Qur’an down on paper in their correct order.

    Harith Muhasibi writes in his book, Fahm As-Sunan, that the transcription of the Qur’an was nothing new, because the Prophet himself had arranged for it to be written down. But it was written separately on Riqa‘a, Likhaf, Katf, ‘Asib, etc. All the materials on which the Qur’an was written were available in the Prophet’s house, but had not been put in any special order. What the collector did was assemble all these parts and then bind them together so that no part was destroyed. (Al-Itqan, v. 1, p. 40)

    This elaborate arrangement of the Qur’an was made so that there should not be even the minutest discrepancy vis-à-vis the original revelation. If this extraordinary care had not been taken, differences would have resulted from the slightest lapse in memorizing and transcription. For instance, when Umar recited this verse to Zayd ibn Thabit, “As for those who led the way, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansar, those who nobly followed them,” Zayd said, that he remembered this verse with waw, that is, with ‘and’ after Ansar. So the investigation started, and finally the other memorizers of the Qur’an came and confirmed that the opinion of Zayd was right. So in the volume the verse was written with the addition of ‘and’.

    In former times, when the accepted way of disseminating the subject matter of a book was to memories it, then recite it, it was quite exceptional that the Qur’an should have been preserved in writing as well as memorized. This was like having a ‘double checking’ system, whereby memory plus written words and written words plus memory could be constantly compared for verification.

    After Zayd ibn Thabit had prepared the entire Qur’an and bound it in the form of a book, all other materials collected from different companions, for the purpose of checking and rechecking, were all burnt. Now this volume was handed over to the caliph. After Abu Bakr’s death it remained with Umar, the second caliph. After the death of Caliph Umar it remained in the custody of Hafsa, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.

    During the caliphate of Uthman, Islam had spread far and wide, and the number of Muslims was legion. Moreover, the companions who taught the Qur’an had gone to different countries that had come within the fold of Islam. For instance, the Syrians learned the Qur’an from Ubayy ibn Kaab, the Kufans (the inhabitants of Kufa, a city in Iraq) learned the Qur’an from Abdullah ibn Masood and the Iraqis in general from Abu Musa Ash’ari. However, due to differences in accent and styles of writing, controversies again began cropping up. People even called one another heretics owing to such differences.

    Ibn Abi Daud writes in his book, Al-Masahif, quoting Yazid ibn Muawiyah Nakhai, that once when Huzayfa ibn Al-Yaman was present in the mosque of Kufa, he found a group reciting the Qur’an. One of them recited a certain verse and said: “This is the way of recitation of Abdullah ibn Masood.” Another recited it with a different accent and said that was how Abu Musa Al-Ashari recited it. Huzayfa, enraged on hearing this, stood up and admonished this group: “Those before you (people of the book) differed just like this. By God, I will go riding to the leader of the believers, Uthman, the third caliph.”

    Huzayfa was a military officer posted in Armenia and Azerbaijan, and had just come back from doing battle. But when he reached Madina, and witnessed the scene in the Prophet’s mosque, instead of going straight home, he went directly to the third caliph and addressed him thus: “O Leader of the believers! Take care of the people, before they fall victim to the differences regarding the book of God just as the Jews and the Christians did.”

    During the caliphate of Uthman there entered the fold of Islam peoples whose mother tongue was not Arabic, and who were not able to speak the language with the proper accent and pronunciation. Even the various Arab tribes themselves had different accents and pronunciation. Hence the variations in the recitation of the Qur’an. The result was that the Qur’an, too, began to be written according to varying pronunciations. Ibn Qutayba writes that the Bani Huzayl tribe used to pronounce ‘hatta’ as ‘atta’. Since Ibn Masood belonged to this tribe, its members saw no reason to deviate from this pronunciation. Such differences in recitation came to be reflected in the transcription of the Qur’an, this being only one of many such examples. Given this state of affairs, Uthman, as advised by Huzayfa ibn Yaman, had copies made of the volume prepared by Abu Bakr, then sent one copy each to all cities. This task was again entrusted to Zayd ibn Thabit Ansari, who was provided with eleven people to assist him. As per the order of the third caliph, the committee wrote down the Qur’an in accordance with the spelling of the Quraysh, so that it should conform to the accent (lehja) of the Prophet of Islam. Caliph Uthman subsequently ordered that all other copies of the Qur’an, which people had written on their own, should be handed over to the government. These were all then burnt by his order.

    By this method, all the copies of the Qur’an were made uniform as far as writing was concerned. However, taking natural differences into consideration—since all the people were not able to pronounce the Qur’an uniformly—permission was given for the Qur’an to be recited with seven different pronunciations and accents. The collection prepared by Abu Bakr was done one year after the death of the Prophet. The copies ordered by Uthman were produced fifteen years after the Prophet’s death.

    These copies of the Qur’an, made with extraordinary care and precision, were passed on from generation to generation until the age of the press dawned. Many printing presses were then established in the Muslim world, where the beautiful calligraphy of the scriptures was reproduced after its content had been certified by memorizers of the Qur’an. Thus, once again, with the help of the memorized versions and written texts, correct, authentic copies were prepared; then with the publication of these copies on a large scale, the Qur’an spread all over the world.

    It is an irrefutable fact acknowledged by the orientalists, that any copy of the Qur’an found in any part of the world at any time will be exactly the same as that handed down to the Muslims by the Prophet in his last days, arranged in the form still extant today.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Jul 2009 23:51 #
  2. Ifzal
    Member

    To Mulla:

    Mulla sorry that name was not Zaid bin Haris but Zaid bin Thabit. It was a miner mistake in my answar in that other thread. So here is the correction.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Jul 2009 23:53 #
  3. chechen
    Member

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm

    There are copies of original Quran from the time of Osman RA. One at Topkapi museum at Istanbul and other at Tashkent, Uzbekistan and third one in Egypt.

    Regarding the first copies of the Quran written by Zaid bin Harith - As sanctioned by the 3rd Caliph Uthman, 20 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

    "...Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph Uthman, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed toUthman."
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

    "The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia....and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing."

    From http://www.iiie.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html

    1. The Tashkent Quran (Uzbekistan)
    http://www.islamicawareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/samarqand.html - Samarkand Text Link

    Original Mushaf written by Zaid bin Harith. A Photocopy of this mushaf is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA.

    2. The Topkapi Quran (Turkey)
    http://www.islamicawareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/topkapi.html

    3. The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript. (Egypt)
    http://www.islamicawareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/hussein.html

    "...is perhaps the oldest of all the manuscripts, and is either `Uthmanic or an exact copy from the original with similarity to the Madinan script..."

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 0:04 #
  4. NNL
    member

    Why do they keep forgetting that the FIRST METHOD by which Quran was transmitted is RECITATION.

    Anything which was contrary to the written text was re-verified by the reciters the Hufaz dont they not believe in them either ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 1:05 #
  5. shahzad1924
    member

    brothers, thanks for sharing the info

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 3:17 #
  6. Ifzal
    Member

    Hi guys
    I started this thread just for information but most importantly it is the answar to all the useless questions raised by Mulla to every participant on this forum. So plz feel free to discuss but I am not going to talk on this topic anymore as it has got enough to answar all tricky question raised by Mulla.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 8:58 #
  7. skyfacts
    Blocked

    shia minority at this forum may never be satisfied as they have RIVAYAT through their shia ppl.So they will talk again and again and insist but without any proof...
    They have no proof either in their single types of WORSHIPS.All the things they doing are just a result of politicle AQAIDS imposed and worked for by the jews like hasan bis saba..
    Their NAMAZ,ROZA,HAJ,ZAKAT and most of the things ahve no trace either in Quran and Hadees...
    Theirfore they are trying to prove every thing FAKE (NAUZUBILLAH).Look at the mentality here.They want more and more to be poluted.The ratio between shia is much high to convert to sunni and many ppl are hidden sunni due to social pressure of their community...As at the end they will come up with crap like their is no QURAN ,no HADEES and at the end no ISLAM.....What a sick minded they all.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:06 #
  8. Ifzal
    Member

    that is very true skyfacts. thats why I am going to avoid these people. To me they just speaks crap.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:13 #
  9. Heather_Ali
    Member

    ThAnks a million for this informative post. There was nothing new which I didn't know but it was a good read. I am not surprised that Mulla has raised these tricky yet useless questions about Quran. Like quite few people on this forum, I do like the questions raised by mulla time to time but in a bid to call himself "the cleverest of the clevers" he oversteps in the region of a no go/ fly zone.

    To question the authencity of Quran and sunnah, he and likes of him are yet proving themselves as Literate Iliterate of the 21st century. Allah has taken the responsibility of Quran and Kabba so all of the bloggers with pain in their hearts for Quran's Authencity.... Plz Shssssssh!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:15 #
  10. skyfacts
    Blocked

    khan,
    But some ppl here to promote ZANDIQ ppl.Look if some one would abuse here personally ppl will react but if some one is abusing ur religion he is welcomed here and promoted here by his some of fellows.The minimum of the muslim duty is to avoid and complete ignore such type of ppl...But ppl still claim for their true muslim may be find joining hands with the ppl abusing religion....

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:23 #
  11. Highly appreciated effort by ‘khan’:
    A comprehensive and informative read about the authenticity of the Holy Quran, here at this forum was a much needed, timely post, when questions had been raised slyly but repeatedly with a hidden intent leading towards a possibility to the addition of ‘a lost portion’ to the existing Quran.
    I am aware of such people belonging to a certain sect that dares questioning the ‘promised authenticity’ of the Holy Quran by Allah (ST).
    Hopefully this post is enough for those ‘conspiring minds’ laying all further conspiracies against Islam and the Holy Quran by them, finally to an end.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:48 #
  12. Anonymous

    Do we care what Mulla says?
    Does it worth wasting our time on these issues?

    but it is an informative post, so thanks for that.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 17:43 #
  13. Ifzal
    Member

    Hi guys
    I started this thread just for information but most importantly it is the answar to all the useless questions raised by Mulla to every participant on this forum. So plz feel free to discuss but I am not going to talk on this topic anymore as it has got enough to answar all tricky question raised by Mulla.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:08 #
  14. utter **** and stories!

    and I am amazed that really really serious scholars here are buying this cut and paste crap...guys this is fabricated stories to provide authenticity to the republished reformatted Quran of the Holy Prophet.......

    I m in a rush at the moment and would love to respond back but to what avail....will i be able to change anyones heart ..no....so what and why should I waste my energy .......

    I said earlier....munafiqs will do anything to provide authenticity and craft looooooong stories and put them in good looking essays and keep us enslaved to the kingdom of Islam rather then the prophetic version of Islam!

    They will keep burning poor of society for disturbing the quran!

    Quran is the word of Allah and those who play with it, will be destroyed from above! (look at yourselves and realize what I say)

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:25 #
  15. Ifzal
    Member

    So it is proved that u r the one and only kid. If not wid age then definitly mentally kid. Immature utter useless person who is in big khushfehmi. Chal war paray. Don't respond anymore coz u won't get any answar. or come wid ur 2nd ID now. U such a loser in this forum.

    Guys plz avoid this ID if u could. He got nothing but just a childish mentality, as u say "Childern should set aside and listen thats it."

    Coooool

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:30 #
  16. NNL
    member

    lol
    ok

    Noorani Mulla! is busy with a very important task i.e entertaining guest and wallahi its an important task as it comes under ikhlaq and Haquq-ul-Ibad.

    So here is a debate which just happened recently in UK where a Jilaya from Nomadic Lands of Amerika came to throw water on the Qidayni turned Christian man who claims that Quran isnt preserved.

    Opening Statements:-

    Rebuttals and Conclusions :-

    I hope it will be beneficial to you all Insha Allah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:36 #
  17. khan:

    you lost your stance....now you are crying like a baby!

    we all know, tumhara knowledge mashallah! dead sahabi collected quran ....ghost stories lol...mashallah

    hay mein qurban , bechara quran jis ke defenders to dekho....

    tum ne quran ko mitaya issi liye allah tum ko mita raha hai!

    jesi karni wesi bharni, jesi karni wesi bharni....

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:39 #
  18. Ifzal
    Member

    just chill man. m sure u will not get in ur crap discussion after this. Mentally retarted people can only say that it is fabricated. tmhary pas ans nhi hai therefore its ****.

    thanda piyo jani.....

    Allah tmhy mature kar day bas yahi dua hai tmhary liye.

    One more thing....!
    I didn't done for winning or losing. I done it for all the muslim who wanted to know about preservation of Quran. I hope s ka faida howa ho ga kafi samaj walon k liye.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:47 #
  19. yes we all know your level of knowledge....

    jhoot bolna or tolna choor do....net par bhi jhoot ?

    pehle khud ko sahi karo phir doosron ko....

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 0:06 #
  20. NNL
    member

    People watch the linked videos.
    Its an interesting topic.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 0:35 #
  21. msohail83
    Member

    Mulla,

    Look who you getting praise from. Must be a proud moment for ya!

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 1:10 #
  22. msohail83
    Member

    Don't worry about my country. Mind your own damn business. You have enough problems at home.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 1:28 #
  23. chechen
    Member

    Thank God Mulla and his kind are slaving for America.

    Khas Kum Jehan Paak.

    Pak sarzameen needs to cleanse all napakis.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 1:30 #
  24. skyfacts
    Blocked

    ZANDIQ stuff in action......

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 5:48 #
  25. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Actually stuff like having blasphemic attitude need to be boycotted completly with no response to their threads,this approach for balsphemic stuff need to be stoped now by some of the people,will make them go out of this forum......what u people suggest???

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 5:54 #
  26. NNL
    member

    completely agree bro.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 6:42 #
  27. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Every one must be clear now why shia's are treated in Pakistan,having killed in the streets and every where.....DUE TO THEIR BLASPHEMIC APPROACH......

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 11:08 #
  28. misalligned
    Member

    yahya

    close your eyes for a moment and thing what will happen if a handful Muslims in US will burn Bible, even they dont follow bible but what will happen?

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:11 #
  29. misalligned
    Member

    Mulla

    I have not seen even a single argument from you, you instead of proving with your arguments are only calling rest of the people munafiqs. Ok i give you fair chance, please show me that you have got knowledge. If you have something show the proofs.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:13 #
  30. Fahim23
    Member

    @misalligned

    I'm sorry to say...in West ppl have done everything abusive and disrespectful to Prophet Jesus whom they believe their god! And nothing has happent. In our countries...ppl are burnt alive, public property destroyed, strikes, and violence erupt immediately merely on rumours. How many ppl actually read Salman Rushdie's satanic verses before coming to streets and behaving like animals?

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:16 #
  31. NNL
    member

    Have you read his Book Fahim.

    If you have then what are your views.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:27 #
  32. misalligned
    Member

    dear Fahim

    I am not saying that no one insulted Jesus or chiristionity in the west. My point was what will happen if minority will take such steps. if you are minority then you have to live according the norms of the country. I am also living in Europe, and i know my limits. I also know if i will test my limits i have to stay prepared for the reaction.

    The Rushdie scenario which you are talking about had exactely repeated in Europe many times in the past when they were not developed and living under the influence of their MULLAs.

    Understand my point i am not defending the action of people in Gojra, even according to Islam it should be the state which should take actions, its not the individuals which should take action. But i was just highlighting one point that I am Muslim Alhumdullilah but in my own country, Pakistan i will never dare to criticize Shia, or Brailvi or Deobandi openly otherwise i know that i will be killed very easily and if i will do so then i know that i am prepared to face any thing.

    So what was in the mind of those Christians, they are also living in the same country, they know the ailing situation of law, they know the sentiments of local people then why they took this step? what is agenda behind this

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:33 #
  33. Fahim23
    Member

    @Dear misaligned

    Your point acknowledged.

    I think in our society even if we want to discuss/debate few things we will be facing death threats. Some scholars say few words which are picked by insane crowd and we all know what happens next.

    So, what should we aim for? To create a society where dissenting views not disrespect is tolerated. Or we burry our heads in the sand like ostrich and continue living in our miserable state as we are?

    Currently...(just 50 years ago westerners were worst thn us IMO) West is holding the beacon of Progress, human and social welfare. We should not be ashamed accepting that they value...tolerence, respect, honesty and integrity much more than us.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:49 #
  34. Fahim23
    Member

    @NNL

    I have not read that book except few excerpts and the reaction I experienced was certainly Exaggerated.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:51 #
  35. misalligned
    Member

    Dear fahim

    truly speaking often i feel i am more free to practice my religon here in Europe than in my own country where at least 5 out of 6 groups will criticize my way of offering prayers, here Alhumdullilah we all pray as we like and most importantly together.

    You wrote that they are more honest and they have more respect to the humanity etc. but sorry to say i hold a little different point of view. I guess its their political and social system which is very strong, its not that their individual is better than ours. I know what they do when they get some chance but its their system which dont give them liberty all the time. Its the law which is truly equal for every one.

    To make our society like their, we only need justice, and lawfulness in our country. when this will achieved humanity, tolerance and everything related to this will automatically come in our society.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 0:14 #
  36. shahzad1924
    member

    a very good point there misalligned. to most, a society is just a collection of individuals whereas in fact thats not the case. the system is the key thing in the society. if the system is correct, the people would be good. if the system is bad, the people will be bad.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 0:18 #
  37. NNL
    member

    Fahim

    I sincerely urge you to read that Book completely and then say that sentiments were more than exaggerated. I would agree that style of sentiments expressed was inappropriate but if you had really read the book then might have understood where the reaction was coming from.

    Shiekh Deedat has given a good talk about it. Its a good talk listen to it please.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 1:07 #
  38. This was also in 'video links'

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 21:45 #

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