Punishment for an Apostate in Islam (****) & Christianity

PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

Punishment for an Apostate in Islam (****) & Christianity

(81 posts)

12 Next »

KHAN_Sahib
Member

I have noticed in one of the threads (Dr Zakir Nayek Banned from UK) that Lota sarcastically posted a Video of Dr. Zakir Nayek in which he said that the killing of **** is according to Islam. In my Limited knowledge, I think that this is the case but I was surprised by other fellow bloggers who sound , not only against the notion but were criticizing this issue too. I would like to have a healthy discussion on this topic to improve my knowledge too.
I just have 3 Requests to all of you...
1. In your opening line, can you tell If you think that the ****'s killing is according to Islam by saying YES OR NO
2. Please DO NOT Label one & another with FITWAS as no one here is an Aalim.
3. People who are against it due to their belief, should give reasons and not ridicule Islam or Mullas...

I am going to give an account of this topic what I found from my own research from the net. please correct me if any of the references are wrong.
-----------------------------------------------------
I do believe that in Islam, the punishment of a **** is killing..... and my references are as follow:

Both Death penalties for apostate and Rajam (Stone to death for Adulterer) are not clearly mentioned in Quran but scholars do have interpretations of some verses of Quran that lead to this penalty. But in Sahih Ahadith matter is mentioned quite vividly.

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 83 :: Hadith 17
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”

Same Hadith is repeated in Sunan Nasai

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 83 :: Hadith 37
Narrated Abu Qilaba:

Once 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him. Then he admitted them and (when they came in), he said, "What do you think of Al-Qasama?" They said, "We say that it is lawful to depend on Al-Qasama in Qisas, as the previous Muslim Caliphs carried out Qisas depending on it." Then he said to me, "O Abu Qilaba! What do you say about it?" He let me appear before the people and I said, "O Chief of the Believers! You have the chiefs of the army staff and the nobles of the Arabs. If fifty of them testified that a married man had committed illegal sexual intercourse in Damascus but they had not seen him (doing so), would you stone him?" He said, "No." I said, "If fifty of them testified that a man had committed theft in Hums, would you cut off his hand though they did not see him?" He replied, "No." I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 84 :: Hadith 57
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

There are some deviated groups of Muslims, they deny all sahih Ahadith and say nothing can be added in religion from Ahadith like Ghamidi and Pervazi.
----------------------------------------------------
Punishment for an Apostate in Christianity
----------------------------------------------------
Mosaic Law (Old Testament)
------------------------------------

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13-6:10)

Reference:
http://www.iamhosted.net/image-upload/view/8027

That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:13)

Reference:
http://www.iamhosted.net/image-upload/view/8028

And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.(Deuteronomy 17-3:5)

Reference:
http://www.iamhosted.net/image-upload/view/8029

-------------------------------------
Law of Jesus (New Testament)
-------------------------------------

Gospel clears the doubt of implementing Mosaic laws for the follower of Gospels too. Jesus (PBUH) states in Bible,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (The Old Testament), till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5-17:18)

Reference:
http://www.iamhosted.net/image-upload/view/8030

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to hisdisciples, Saying, The scribes and thePharisees sit in Moses' seat: All thereforewhatsoever they bid you observe, that observeand do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matthew 23-1:3)

Reference:
http://www.iamhosted.net/image-upload/view/8045
--------------------------------------------------

A detailed response from Yusuf Estes regarding this matter :

To begin, there is not a hard and fast rule concerning this subject because there are perhaps as many reasons why people do what they do as there are people in the world. The answer must be based on each individual situation, as it depends largely on the person, his or her knowledge, intention and understanding as well as the conditions surrounding the circumstances.

**** (apostasy) a Muslim who makes the choice to leave Islam (submission to God's Will).

Next let them know, no one is ever forced or coerced into accepting Islam. This always was and always will be a matter of choice left up to the individual. Muslims are not ordered to "convert" people to Islam. Rather, they are ordered to deliver the message of Islam to others through their own righteous living as an example and in respectful "reminding" as taught in the Quran.

Islam (willful submission) to Allah's Shar'iah (God's Commandments in Islamic Law) and is the very balance needed for all humans for all times and in all places (according the teachings of Islam). The Paradise is reserved for only those who submit themeselves to the Commandments and Judgments of Almighty Allah.

There is never to be forced conversion to Islam (if it were forced, then the word "Islam" would not really apply anyway), and it is forbidden according to the Quran, in the second chapter, verse 256: "Let there be no complusion in the religioin ("deen": actually means way of life as opposed to "religion"). From this we understand no one can be made to believe anything by force. Rather, it must be by their own decision.

Now be sure they understand the difference between "Islam" and "Muslims", meaning: "Islam" is perfect, but we as humans (Muslims) are not. Therefore, we can and do make mistakes. This lets us know immediately if anyone is calling for something in the name of "Islam" or the "Shar'iah", this should be viewed in the evidence of the Shar'iah itself and not just what some jurist or scholar may conclude.

Even during the time of our prophet, peace be upon him, there were some who "left Islam" and then they were allowed to come back if they wanted to or stay away if they so desired. One example is from the Muslims who migrated in the first migration to Ethiopia and one of them left Islam, became a Christian (the people of Abyssinia were Christians at that time) and then even told people there he was an "author" of the Quran. Of course such actions are most despicable and worthy of some kind of reprimand, especially considering the extent of the lies against the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him. Yet, nothing was done to this man by the Muslims. His wife, Zainab, could not tolerate his lies and his turning his back against the truth of Islam and she returned back to the Muslims in Arabia. After the man died the Christians attempted to bury him, but the next day they found his body out of the grave and laying on the ground. Considering the Muslims must have done this act, they moved him to another area and buried him there. Again, the next day they found his body out of the grave and on top of the ground. So, they took him far from there and made another grave and buried him in it. But again, the next day his body was out of the grave and laying on the ground. At this point they decided the ground would not accept his body and they left it for the wild animals. We learn from this example Allah will be the One to finally deal with these people and He may even do so in this world as well as on the Day of Judgment.

Other examples include those who entered Islam in the presence of our beloved prophet, peace be upon him, yet when they were returned back to their people (during an agreement between the pagans and Muhammad, peace be upon him) some of them reverted back to their old pagan religion. Some of them did come back to Islam again later on after Islam came to be the governing state. In this case we observe what can happen in the case of the one who is in Islam and then for whatever reason decides not to stay.

Yet another example that occurred at the time of our blessed prophet, peace be upon him, was that of some who pretended they wanted to be Muslims only to take advantage of the believers, gain some worldly benefits and then abused and slaughtered an entire group of shepherds that memorized the entire Quran, who were caring for them. They killed them in cold blood and took everything for themselves. The prophet, peace be upon him, was very disturbed over this and ordered them to be severely punished and left to die without any food or water. From this example we learn how to deal with traitors and terrorists who have no intention of doing anything except evil and spreading fitnah (evil and terror) throughout the land.

Over the centuries since the inception of Islam, we can find cases of people leaving Islam and what was their example and what the pervailing jurists decided in their particular situation. Most all of these were not punished except in the cases of treason, other acts of viloence or for propagating corruption, dissention and promoting evil along with their apostasy. Those who were found to be causing sedition or of being enemy spies during times of war or advocating the overthrow of Islamic government could understandably be courtmartialed and executed.

To conclude, Islam comes from Allah, the actual Creator and Sustainer of the universe. Islam provides for all situations and dictates what are the rights and limitations. This all seeks to provide a safe enviornment for all people to learn the correct message of Almighty Allah and how to live as upright citizens in a place of pleace and mutual cooperation for all humans, regardless of their beliefs.

If a person wants to accept this belief and way of life, then they should be free to do so. If another person would reject this even though the evidence is clearly in favor of Islam, they are free to make this choice but would live in the society still receiving the benefits and services available, such as food, shelter, clothing, protection and charity. However, they would pay a larger tax on their wealth due to their not being conscripted to serve in the military and so on.

Conditions are really what bring about the different rulings on dealing with those who enter Islam and then leave it, with the clear intention of bringing about descention and unrest amongst the people. Also, those who seek to convert people away from Islam into other faiths or to destroy the Islamic government would naturally be considered as traitors and then dealt with as such.

All knowledge is with Allah and for any mistakes I seek Allah's forgiveness and beg the pardon of anyone whom I may have offended in this writing.

Again, may Allah reward you for your effort and accept from you and all of us, ameen.
Salam alaykum,
Yusuf Estes

http://www.islamnewsroom.com/if-someone-leaves-islam-hot-topics-45

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jun 2010 19:43 #
semirza
Moderator

@KHAN_Sahib
****'s killing is according to Islam = YES

Those who oppose this ruling from sharia/Islamic Jurisprudence are either non Muslims or those who have strayed away from Deen in exchange of non religious free living!

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jun 2010 21:18 #
fayyaz214
Member

Khan_sahib Assalamo Elikum wa Ramatullah

Killing an appostate is NOT an Islamic concept. As long as, that person did not commit any other crime.

I will first share with you reasons from Quran and then share with you the conclusion that one should draw when one takes into account the following verses of Quran and ahadith and the incidents that you quoted above. May Allah(SWT), guide us all and enable us to learn and present true Islam. (Ameen)

VERSES FROM QURAN

1: Many places in Quran, Allah (SWT) tells prophet (PBUH) that he is not responsible for people's faith and people have freedom to choose their faith. WHY WOULD WE EXCLUDE apostates from this freedom and why would we take responsibility of their faith when Allah SWT has told prophet Muhammad (PBUH) not to do so.

وَلَوْ شَاء رَبُّكَ لآمَنَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ كُلُّهُمْ جَمِيعًا أَفَأَنتَ تُكْرِهُ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَكُونُواْ مُؤْمِنِينَ 10-99

Had your Lord willed, all those on earth would have believed altogether. Would you, then, compel people, so that they become believers?

وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا أَشْرَكُواْ وَمَا جَعَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِوَكِيلٍ 6-107

If Allah willed, they would not have associated. We have not appointed you as a guard over them, nor are you a taskmaster for them.

لَّسْتَ عَلَيْهِم بِمُصَيْطر, إِلَّا مَن تَوَلَّى وَكَفَر, فَيُعَذِّبُهُ اللَّهُ الْعَذَابَ الْأَكْبَرَ َ 88-22,23, 24

You are not a taskmaster set up over them, but whoever turns away and disbelieves, Allah will punish him with the greatest torment.

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ 2-256

There is no compulsion in Faith

There are 1.4 Billion Muslims, if anyone of them wanted to change their religion and they are threatened with death, won’t it mean that they are being compelled in their religion?

2: There are many places in Quran, where Allah (SWT) talks about Apostates and does not mention punishment of death for them, instead he talks about the punishment they will get from Him. Few examples are below for your considerations, there are many more.

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىَ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيَجْزِي اللّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ
Al Imram 144

Muhammad is but a messenger, there have been messengers before him. So, if he dies or is killed, would you turn back on your heels? Whoever turns back on his heels can never harm Allah in the least. Allah shall soon reward the grateful.

يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ قِتَالٍ فِيهِ قُلْ قِتَالٌ فِيهِ كَبِيرٌ وَصَدٌّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَكُفْرٌ بِهِ وَالْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ وَإِخْرَاجُ أَهْلِهِ مِنْهُ أَكْبَرُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَكْبَرُ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ وَلاَ يَزَالُونَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ حَتَّىَ يَرُدُّوكُمْ عَن دِينِكُمْ إِنِ اسْتَطَاعُواْ وَمَن يَرْتَدِدْ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَيَمُتْ وَهُوَ كَافِرٌ فَأُوْلَئِكَ حَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَأُوْلَئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ
2-217

They ask you about the Sacred Month, that is, about fighting in it. Say, :Fighting in it is something grave, but it is much more grave, in the sight of Allah, to prevent (people) from the path of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, and in Al-Masjid-ul-Haram, and to expel its people from there, and Fitnah (to create disorder) is more grave than killing. They will go on fighting you until they turn you away from your faith if they could, while whoever of you turns away from his faith and dies an infidel, such people are those whose deeds will go to waste in this world and in the Hereafter, and they are people of the Fire. They shall be there forever

3: If Muslims were killing apostates, then why Jews will make the following plan

وَقَالَت طَّآئِفَةٌ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ آمِنُواْ بِالَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَجْهَ النَّهَارِ وَاكْفُرُواْ آخِرَهُ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ 3-72

And a group from the people of the Book said (to their people), :Believe in what has been revealed to the believers in the early part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, so that they may turn back.

4: Forcing apostates to change have been Sunnah of kufr and not of people of God

قَالُوا لَئِن لَّمْ تَنتَهِ يَا نُوحُ لَتَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمَرْجُومِينَ 26- 116

They said, Should you not stop, O Nuh, you will surely be stoned.

قَالَ الْمَلأُ الَّذِينَ اسْتَكْبَرُواْ مِن قَوْمِهِ لَنُخْرِجَنَّكَ يَا شُعَيْبُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَعَكَ مِن قَرْيَتِنَا أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا قَالَ أَوَلَوْ كُنَّا كَارِهِينَ 7-88

The chiefs of his people, who were arrogant, said, :O Shu'aib, we will expel you and those who believe with you from our town, or you shall have to turn to our faith. He said, :Even if we hate it?

فَلَمَّا جَاءهُم بِالْحَقِّ مِنْ عِندِنَا قَالُوا اقْتُلُوا أَبْنَاء الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ وَاسْتَحْيُوا نِسَاءهُمْ 40-25

And when he brought them the truth from Us, they said, :Kill the sons of those who have accepted faith with him, and spare the lives of their women. But the plot of the disbelievers is nothing but a failure.

SO WHAT DO ABOVE VERSES OF QURAN AND THE AHADITH THAT YOU QUOTED ABOVE ARE TRYING TO TELL US

The key to above question lies in the last sentence of hadith of Bukhari that you quoted. Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 83 :: Hadith 37. The last sentence that you quoted is

أَوْ رَجُلٌ حَارَبَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَارْتَدَّ عَنْ الْإِسْلَامِ
"a man who FOUGHT against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate"

An apostate who fights with muslims, should be killed. Just leaving the religion of Islam does not equate to fighting. If it did, then prophet (PBUH) would have ordered the killing of the people that Yusuf Estes mentioned, and if it did, then what do above verses mean.

May Allah (SWT) guide us all to the straight path and help us to dedicate oursleves only to Him. (Ameen)

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jun 2010 22:16 #
sasherwani
Members

@ Fayyaz,

You used the Quran as your reference. That itself is enough to disprove any counter-arguments.

Thanks for your insightful post.

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Jun 2010 12:25 #
sasherwani
Members

@ semirza,

:)

that's very fair! good job!

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 7:07 #
lota6177
Members

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy
homework.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 13:02 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

Thanks fayyaz for your excellent post...
@Lota.... Instead of this attempted "Humorous" posting, I wish that you could have come a bit clear and posted your views/arguments if any?

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 22:08 #
lota6177
Members

Khan Sahab
My personal belief is that religion is a personal matter between a person and God. Other humans should stay out of this A and B relationship. Anyone who claims he has a license from God to regulate the relationship between God and his creation should be ignored. I believe in intellectual freedom and if someone wants to believe in religion than good for him and if someone choose not to believe in religion than that is also a personal choice. How someone chooses to live is nobody else’s business. What is the punishment for offenses done to god is something we will find out after we expire. The Quran is clear that punishment for apostasy is not death. In my opinion most hadiath literature is Persian fiction so I tend to ignore it.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 23:45 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Topic: What is to be done with 'murtad' people ?

Video: Khatame Nabowat Takmeela Resalat 3/8- why Muhammad SAW the Last Prophet - by Dr Israr Ahmad

11-November-2010
--------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------

Video: Khatame Nabowat Takmeela Resalat - 2/8 - Qadiyani Fitna - by Dr Israr Ahmad

11-November-2010
--------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------
Source: Youtube Channel: atensari

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 15:12 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Youtube Playlist: Khatam a Nabuwat Legal importance and significance

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 15:39 #
hariskhan
member

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 15:49 #
hariskhan
member

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 16:21 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I posted full content in above posts. Why are they showing up as empty ?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 16:21 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

The Ayahs mentioned by 'fayyaz214' do not apply to the topic at hand.

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 17:50 #
fayyaz214
Member

HarisKhan and all, Assalamo Elikum wa Rahmatullah hey wa baraktu hu,

First of all, let me acknowledge that my introduction to Islam was thruogh Dr. Israr Ahmad. So I owe him for that. May Allah (SWT) forgive his sins and grant him paradise.

Secondly, the videos that you posted, deal with two topics 1) Murtad 2) Khatme Nabowat. Given this thread is focused on Murtad, I'll only focus on that piece of the video

Only argument that Dr. Israr Ahmad gave around killing Murtad, was based on that Sahabah waged war against Murtad. A closer study of those actions of Sahabah will reveal that they did wage war against them because they have started an armed revolt against the state. If they have waged wars just because those people change their religion, then how would you explain the incidents that Yusuf Estes quoted above.

My dear brothers and sisters, we are suppose to worship Allah (all mighty, all knowledgeable) and not the scholars. I know all of us know that. It was only few years back that I realized that I knew that but I was not practicing it. Quran (9:31) says

اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ
They have taken their rabbis and their monks as gods beside Allah

The explaination of this ayah in one of the Hasan Gharib ahadith of Tirmizi is following, I also learnt this from Dr. Israr Ahmad

People of the book did not worhship their scholars, but they made things haram that the scholars told them are haram and they made things halal that Scholars told them are halal.

hariskhan, you mentioned that "The Ayahs mentioned by 'fayyaz214' do not apply to the topic at hand". But can you please elaborate, how did you come to the conclusion that the Ayahs that I quoted don't apply to the topic at hand?

Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jun 2010 15:18 #
fayyaz214
Member

Assalamo Elikum,

I know people who argue that Apostate should be killed, use verse 2:54 as one of their arguement.

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسٰى لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ بِاتِّخَاذِكُمُ الْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُواْ إِلَى بَارِئِكُمْ فَاقْتُلُواْ أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

They say that this verse says that people who worhshiped the Gloden calf were ordered to be killed and hence the punishment of Apostate should be death. If that is what this verse means, then how would we reconcile that with the verses that I quoted above and the incidences that Yusuf Estes quoted above.

Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jun 2010 16:11 #
akhokar
Member

As per understanding of few this may be quite understandable for them to consider that a **** be put to death. But who decides that; who is **** and who is not?

The history speaks that at the time of advent of Jesus (as) the so called Israelis elites and the religious figures of the time, unamously declared the man an imposter and sentesed him to death and sent him to the Cross to die a humiliating death.

But later the Holy Quran reveals that what type of transgressors they were and that how God Almighty had defunct them and they found them themselves the recipient of the wrath of God for their despicable act.

Please keep in mind that our God(nazbilla) has not proceeded on his retirement; He is a living God who is in control of all the affairs (although some may like him to be seen on retirement so they can dictated others).

Allah declares that: [Al-Haqqah-69:43--45] It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. ()“And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,() We would surely have seized him by the right hand”,() And then surely We would have severed his life-artery”.

I think this must resolve the misgiving that some may be carrying.

Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 11:19 #
NNL
member

To the ones who argue against the beheading of an apostate they will have to bring clear proofs regarding the prohibition of such an act.

Otherwise they should know that if they argue for the apostates then they are guilty of Apostasy and will be charged as such.

For them we have some simple questions.

Have you even read the Tafsir of the Ayah 9:74 ? Do you know regarding whom it was said ? Or how about the Ayahs 9:65-66

Are they not aware of the punishments received by Banu Haneefah who believed Musaylamah as a Prophet. Why did Khalid Bin Walid Radhi Allah Unhu wiped them off from the face of this world by the command of Abu Bakr Radhi Allah Unhu also referred in the Quran as Al-Sadiq. And he Radhi Allah Unhu was also the one who started the Riddah Wars aka The Wars of Apostasy cos the ppl killed had only refused to give Zakat but still offered Salah so here is the question was Abu Bakr Radhi Allah Unhu wrong ?

And also why did Alee ibn Talib Radhi Allah Unhu dug a pit and burned a whole lot of Muslims and ibn Abbas Radhi Allah Unhu responded he Radhi Allah Unhu shouldnt have burned them but should have beheaded them ?

Also the Four Great Imams have dedicated a portion of their books on the rulings for an apostate where they have not only debated but concluded the issue of how an apostate should be killed but never the issue of whether an apostate be killed or not was either debated or discussed.

I can assure you and you should believe in this as you believe in Sun is a stationary planet or the Earth is round that Abu Bakr and Alee Radhi Allah Unhu were far more intelligent and well versed with the religion of Al Islam and its rulings than you or your ilk will ever be.

And I bear witness to Allah Azza Wa Jal that i will surely testify against the apostates and will ask Allah Azza Wa Jal that i be allowed to throw the apostates into Jahanum alongside the Angels.

Ameen.

(PS the crime of Apostasy and the punishment of an Apostate is only to be handled by the Rulers and only the Rulers of the Country State. The decision has to be made with the consensus of the Ulema and carried out by the Rulers. No vigilantism will/should be allowed in this issue. Period. The apostate has to be living in the Same country where the ruling is to be applied. Cant be a random decision by an random person in a remote area of the country. )

Posted 1 year ago on 27 Jun 2010 9:15 #
fayyaz214
Member

NNL, thanks for your post. I don't have an iota of doubt in my mind that Sahabah's understanding of Islam was exponentially better than mine. I am not for a second trying to take a position against the positions of Sahabah on this topic. What I am humbling suggesting that Sahabah did not kill people SIMPLY because people changed their religion, but they fought them because in addition to changing their religion those people revolted against the state.

How do I know that, please read my previous two posts for answers to this question. Please do read them and let me know what part of my aruguements are incorrect.

Regarding the verses of Surah Tawba, I'll inshallah comment in my next post

With all the respect for the four Imams, are you suggesting that agreement of those four Imams concludes that no more debate or discussion can happen on the issue. Is there no other issue where scholars before and after the four Imams had different opinion than the consensus of the four Imam. Why consensus of 4 Imam is a "daleel" and not of 3 or 6?

To your last paragraph before PS. I competely agree that Murtad, who willingly and knowingly denies the truth of Islam, will face Allah's anger and punishment on the day of judgement. But in this world, while those Murtad are alive, I'll pray that may they find the right path and get back to the truth of Islam and once they are dead, I'll leave their judgement to Allah (SWT). As he is the judge and not me.

Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 0:18 #
NNL
member

Read my post again regarding the Four Imams.

Secondly you will have to prove to me that they were killed because they had revolted against the state.

Thirdly if you are going by that logic that revolted ones were killed by Rasool Allah then why wasnt Haitb punished when he had been caught sending a forewarning to the Quraish before the battle of Makkah. Why ?

Or only 4 ppl were penalized by death after the victory in Makkah why ? while 2 of them were previous Muslims ?

Are you contesting that the issue of Zakat wasnt the main issue ? or that the ppl killed because of revolt or they had declared Ali to be Allah ?

Make up your mind

Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 8:26 #
hkbajwa
Member

The Word of God does not require the Sword of Man to validate its Truth

It is a weak and insecure religion that punishes those who do not beleive in it.

If a religion is incapable of retaining its followers without the threat of violence and death, then IMHO it is not a religion but rather a prison.

It signals the fall of said religion from a state of peace and grace to a state of violence and hatred.

It is the despicable power-grabbing tactics of clerics that create such draconian and ungodly laws. They do not fear that apostates will harm God (after all, it is not possible to harm the creator).. no these pitiful salvation peddlers are more interested in retaining their own power. Apostasy laws and punishments come not from a love for God but rather from a fear of losing power.

I mean think about it... when a man loses his way and leaves the path towards God, is that not a punishment enough in itself? Should one not pity an erring human, when one knows the punishment he will face in the afterlife? How does a person justify engaging in cruel and barbaric practices against those who are making the biggest mistake in their (after)lives??

The transgressors will surely get their just desserts in the afterlife... of that there is no doubt. But clerics do not care about the afterlife. They care only about the amount of power they hold in this life. And apostasy laws are their greatest source of power and intimidation.

Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 14:06 #
NNL
member

My Nabi Muhammad ibn Abdullah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wasallam handed out the punishments for Apostasy, the people who by the virtues of their good deeds have after their names Radhi Allah Unhu and the Ayah in the Quran whose meaning is that Allah is pleased with them enforced the Punishment of Apostasy. And the ones who followed them for the next 2 generations did the same.

Now here is the question who are you (referred to all) to criticize them and the act ? You cant be accepted completely by your family and in your city you are nothing but a piece of worthless crap. There is no Rahimullah, Radhi Allah Unhu after your names, at best the most good people who think you are good will be the ones who need you for something and after their need is done they will throw you out like used condoms. Its a harsh reality and its about time yall face it up. Allah Azza Wa Jal has made you worthless in this Duniya and Will Do the Same on Yaum-ul-Qiyama.

We know that you know this and are in denial of this fact and it really amuses us and its our wish you remain that way for we will meet face to face again on Yaum-ul-Qiyam and would love to see the look on your face when the same people whom you curse day in day out will be throwing you into Jahanum. This is a Promise that will happen Insha Allah.

Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 21:56 #
NNL
member

Fayyaz

The crux of your argument is .... ?

Can you sum it up so i can follow your evidences in that order. Cos you are kinda vague for me.

Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 22:00 #
hkbajwa
Member

NNL

Seriously? You presume to lecture us about righteousness when you in one single post managed to exhibit both your hatred and your miserably misplaced sense of moral superiority?

You even have the gall to presume that you are heaven-bound and the rest of us sinners are going to hell??

I bow with humility before God and admit that i am indeed an imperfect sinner. But it is also very evident that you are no less so. In spite of this however, you still have the nerve to presume only you have access to heaven??

I commend you for displaying so proudly the characteristic hatred, arrogance, vindictiveness and ignorant intolerance of your kind of "muslim".

Every man makes his own peace with God. He goes to the grave alone and he will be judged by God alone. You have no right to play God and mete out punishments that you are not qualified to give. No mullah, no aalim nor any of the idiot "teachers" who taught you how to think like this are qualified to interfere with the relationship between a Man and the Creator.

This apostasy bullsh*t is the last bastion of a pathetic and dying "islamic" clergy. It is only a matter of time (thank God) that the muslims of the world will take their faith out of the hands of idiot mullahs and claim their rightful ownership.

We will render impotent your rage, we will clip the wings of your fury and then we shall fight for your right to live your faith.

Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 18:30 #
NNL
member

To the Mirza follower.

The post was general not specific.

My post is a simple fact you may not like it for it wasnt written to please you.

Never did i claim i will be heaven bound. I just asked to throw the Apostates into Jahanum as an helper or alongside the Angels.

I know its a shocker for you and your ilk therefore you cant provide anything but senseless rant and diatribes. This isnt the Catholic Church that your rants of Protestantism will construed as valid arguments.

This is Islam a religion that was completed long before your entire lineage was even born.

Your posts in entirety are nothing sound only some notion of self fulfillment or a bubble that you have created around yourself to avoid reality. I can understand that it pains you to accept the truth and in the bottom of your heart you know it to be true therefore its very hard for you to admit that you are lying against Allah Azza Wa Jal and Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wasallam.

You cant do shi-t my friend so dont make claims that even you know arent true. My Destiny is already written and if i am to suffer any sort of humiliation it will be by the Will of Allah Azza Wa Jal and i will only be punished for my deeds and nothing else. If i were to ever enter Jannah it will be only thru the Mercy of Allah Azza Wa Jal and nothing else. If i am to befall a grave situation i will be keen to know if its a punishment or a test if punishment then i do deserve it for i m a sinner and if a test then gladly accept it cos Allah Azza Wa Jal deemed it fit for me to have the test out of all His Creation. A slave never questions his Master.

You cant do anything to me you can try but nothing shall befall me without the Will of Allah. And if the roles were reversed believe you me i will render you a way to quickly meet your Maker and then you can plead your case directly to the Creator and let us know of His Decision. Believe you me it will be a great pleasure for me if i can facilitate that meeting for it will lives of a lot of people easier.

Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 21:10 #
shafiq12
member

@Hqbajwa
@fayyaz

U both are **** according to Islamic Sharia and defending falsehood of Qadaniayat.

Is that not enough for all of qadianis, that they are following the teaching of Mirza Ghulam (The false Prophet)

rather than the true and Last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

There are so many differences in the teaching of Liar Mirza Ghulam Muhammad and the True Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

So u deserve to be punished, as truth seems to be very clear to you from first day.

Wait for that day when u will punished, because the life of this world is too short as compare to the next life, than u will see with you eyes what you have brought before Allah.

Only the illusion of Mirza Ghulam Muhammad for he will go with lots of innocent people like u to the Hell.

Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jul 2010 5:00 #
fayyaz214
Member

@NNL and others

The crux of my arguement is this

1: There are many Ayah's in Quran which are against the concept of killing an Apostate - Please refer to my first post Please let me know if I am not understanding those verses correctly.

2: There were many apostates during the life of prophet (PBUH), who were not killed, even though prophet (PBUH) and sahabah had ability to kill them - Please refer to middle portion of the first post to some examples of that. There are more examples including one apostate who was not killed after the conquest of Makkah

Therefore punishment of SIMPLE Apostate (a person who does not do any other crime) is not death

Now to answer your arguements

1: The Ayah's you quoted from Surah Tawbah. I read them again, I also looked at Tafheem-ul-Quran and I did not find any relationship of those Ayah's with killing Apostate. Can you please elaborate on your arguement

2: The incidents that you quoted where people were killed. We have to study what was different in those incidents compared to incidents when Appostates were not killed. I will submit to you that the difference was people who were killed they did more than just being an Apostate. It is also clear in one of the ahadiths quoted in the first post.

أَوْ رَجُلٌ حَارَبَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَارْتَدَّ عَنْ الْإِسْلَامِ
"a man who FOUGHT against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate"

3: Regarding your arguement on why all the four Imam's agreed on the killing the Apostate. I can provide you examples of the past Ulama who did not think that a Simple Apostate should be killed. What is even more important, you will agree with me, we should worship Allah (SWA) and not our Alims. We should respect them but not worship them. Worshiping our Alims means taking everything they said as word of God. Quran (9:31) says

اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ
They have taken their rabbis and their monks as gods beside Allah

The explaination of this ayah in one of the Hasan Gharib ahadith of Tirmizi is following.

People of the book did not worhship their scholars, but they made things haram that the scholars told them are haram and they made things halal that Scholars told them are halal.

4: there is one arguement that you have not given, but others give in favor of killing Appostate. Quran 2:54. If you interpret it that way, how would you reconcile it with the Ayah's that I quoted in my first post.

Please, please think about this and I would do the same. I pray to Allah (SWT) to guide us to the straight path. Please don't pray for people to stay on the wrong path, pray for them to get on the right path. Remember the incident of Tiaf and how our beloved prophet reacted to it.

Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jul 2010 21:58 #
NNL
member

Tafheem ul Quran by Moudoodi ?

ROFLMAO.......

You listen to that guy crazy person ?

no wonder

Bring me Ahadiths explaining and supporting your claim my friend not some prozac deprived individual's thoughts on what Islam is...

Thanks.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jul 2010 10:54 #
NNL
member

AGain the first verses that you have posted have nothing to do with apostates rather people who were non muslims to begin with.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jul 2010 10:55 #
shafiq12
member

Brother Fayyaz214

I agreed with u. U have very good understanding of Quran.

and also Muslim scholars agreeing with not all apostates to be killed.

But brother let talk about Why Qadiani are ****.

U are urging on platform which never exist i.e Qadianiat.

Ur base is corrupt brother believe me, If u leave Qadianiat and accept Islam u will be blessed.

I can prove u that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was Liar and False prophet?

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jul 2010 12:44 #
fayyaz214
Member

@NNL I read different point of view to figure out what is right. In your post you mentioned Ayah of Surah Taubah and I did not find those Ayah having anything to do with Murtad. So I went on looking to see if I am missing something. Reason I chose Maudodi, because he advocates for killing Murtad and I thought he might have used these verses to prove that Murtad should be killed, but that was not the case.

Regarding the firt Ayah that I quoted, it talks about not forcing anyone to believe in Islam, today there are 1.4 Billion Muslims, overwhelming of them are muslims by birth. If they decide to leave, why won't that be forcing them to believe. Please read all the Ayah's together and see what kind of thing that are trying to tell us.

My dear NNL, are you doing speed reading my posts or are you really reading them, in addition to the Ayah's of Quran that I quoted, I also quoted a hadith that says

"By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who FOUGHT against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate." Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 83 :: Hadith 37

In above hadith it is combination of fighting and apostacy that lead to killing them, not just apostacy. I agree that there are other hadith that don't mention fighting, but when you take above hadith, the Ayahs from Quran, incidents in prophet's life where SIMPLE apostates were not killed, then the answer to Apostate becomes clear. May Allah (SWT) be our guide. Ameen.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jul 2010 14:47 #
fayyaz214
Member

My dear brother super soldier, Assalamo Elikum, This post has nothing to do with Qadianiat. It is about what is the punishment of Apostate in Islam. Not sure from where are you getting that I am using the Qadiani (Ahmadi, as they prefer to be called) platform. Only thing I have been using has been Quran and Sunnah. Please feel free to open a different thread if you want to discuss Ahmadis and Mirza Sahib.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jul 2010 15:00 #
NNL
member

Fayyaz regarding speed reading.

Well to be honest you have quoting ayahs which have no or little revelance to the matter at hand.

Then your preference not use hadiths in your arguments and then finally u quoting Moudoodi led me to believe that your style is nothing more of an modernist/khawarij style. therefore i paid little attention.

Now can you complete the HAdith that you have quoted in your last post from Al-Saheeh or should i ?

Just a couple more to establish that Apostates are to be killed

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His (other) affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right. in Kitab AL Eman in Sahih Muslim. From this Hadith it can be very well understood that Abu Bakr whose Islam is not questionable considered non payers of Zakat to be apostates.

Again from Sahih Al Bukhari
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Book #83, Hadith #17)

Again from Al Bukhari
Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " (Book #52, Hadith #260)

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 0:27 #
fayyaz214
Member

NNL .. Assalamo Elikum, thanks for further engaging in the discussion. Can you please help me understand what does following part of the hadith mean and how is it not in contradiction with the Ayah لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ 2-256 (There is no compulsion in Faith)

"I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right?"

Jazakallah

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 2:30 #
NNL
member

Read the tafsir ya akhi its very simple.

You dont have to force a person to accept Islam if he does and if he doesnt he doesnt.

Again you havent responded to the original questions i had for you instead you bring another.

Ok then again complete the hadith that you have posted in the end and give its reference.

Ya Akhi you have to understand that my understanding or yours for that matter dont mean **** if they dont agree with the understanding of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wasallam and have the Consensus of the Sahabah Radhi Allah Unhum behind it.

That is the safest way and thats about it.

Walaykum

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 2:52 #
fayyaz214
Member

The hadith that I quoted in the end was the hadith that was quoted by the Khan_Sahib at the very first post. The full text is following

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 83 :: Hadith 37
Narrated Abu Qilaba:

Once 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him. Then he admitted them and (when they came in), he said, "What do you think of Al-Qasama?" They said, "We say that it is lawful to depend on Al-Qasama in Qisas, as the previous Muslim Caliphs carried out Qisas depending on it." Then he said to me, "O Abu Qilaba! What do you say about it?" He let me appear before the people and I said, "O Chief of the Believers! You have the chiefs of the army staff and the nobles of the Arabs. If fifty of them testified that a married man had committed illegal sexual intercourse in Damascus but they had not seen him (doing so), would you stone him?" He said, "No." I said, "If fifty of them testified that a man had committed theft in Hums, would you cut off his hand though they did not see him?" He replied, "No." I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Now coming back to my question .. you said "You dont have to force a person to accept Islam if he does and if he doesnt he doesnt.", but the hadith you quoted appears to say that you should fight with them till they become muslim. What am I missing?

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 5:08 #
NNL
member

like i said Recheck the Quote and the reference you might find it interesting my friend. Because the Quote is from the wrong book of Sahih and is still incomplete.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 5:34 #
fayyaz214
Member

here you go. Here is the full hadith, from Sahih Bukkari, book of Blood Money (Ad-Diyat). What is your point?

Narrated Abu Qilaba:

Once 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him. Then he admitted them and (when they came in), he said, "What do you think of Al-Qasama?" They said, "We say that it is lawful to depend on Al-Qasama in Qisas, as the previous Muslim Caliphs carried out Qisas depending on it." Then he said to me, "O Abu Qilaba! What do you say about it?" He let me appear before the people and I said, "O Chief of the Believers! You have the chiefs of the army staff and the nobles of the Arabs. If fifty of them testified that a married man had committed illegal sexual intercourse in Damascus but they had not seen him (doing so), would you stone him?" He said, "No." I said, "If fifty of them testified that a man had committed theft in Hums, would you cut off his hand though they did not see him?" He replied, "No." I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate." Then the people said, "Didn't Anas bin Malik narrate that Allah's Apostle cut off the hands of the thieves, branded their eyes and then, threw them in the sun?" I said, "I shall tell you the narration of Anas. Anas said: "Eight persons from the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Apostle and gave the Pledge of allegiance for Islam (became Muslim). The climate of the place (Medina) did not suit them, so they became sick and complained about that to Allah's Apostle. He said (to them ), "Won't you go out with the shepherd of our camels and drink of the camels' milk and urine (as medicine)?" They said, "Yes." So they went out and drank the camels' milk and urine, and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of Allah's Apostle and took away all the camels. This news reached Allah's Apostle , so he sent (men) to follow their traces and they were captured and brought (to the Prophet). He then ordered to cut their hands and feet, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, and then he threw them in the sun till they died." I said, "What can be worse than what those people did? They deserted Islam, committed murder and theft."

Then 'Anbasa bin Said said, "By Allah, I never heard a narration like this of today." I said, "O 'Anbasa! You deny my narration?" 'Anbasa said, "No, but you have related the narration in the way it should be related. By Allah, these people are in welfare as long as this Sheikh (Abu Qilaba) is among them." I added, "Indeed in this event there has been a tradition set by Allah's Apostle. The narrator added: Some Ansari people came to the Prophet and discussed some matters with him, a man from amongst them went out and was murdered. Those people went out after him, and behold, their companion was swimming in blood. They returned to Allah's Apostle and said to him, "O Allah's Apostle, we have found our companion who had talked with us and gone out before us, swimming in blood (killed)." Allah's Apostle went out and asked them, "Whom do you suspect or whom do you think has killed him?" They said, "We think that the Jews have killed him." The Prophet sent for the Jews and asked them, "Did you kill this (person)?" They replied, "No." He asked the Al-Ansars, "Do you agree that I let fifty Jews take an oath that they have not killed him?" They said, "It matters little for the Jews to kill us all and then take false oaths." He said, "Then would you like to receive the Diya after fifty of you have taken an oath (that the Jews have killed your man)?" They said, "We will not take the oath." Then the Prophet himself paid them the Diya (Blood-money)." The narrator added, "The tribe of Hudhail repudiated one of their men (for his evil conduct) in the Pre-lslamic period of Ignorance.

Then, at a place called Al-Batha' (near Mecca), the man attacked a Yemenite family at night to steal from them, but a. man from the family noticed him and struck him with his sword and killed him. The tribe of Hudhail came and captured the Yemenite and brought him to 'Umar during the Hajj season and said, "He has killed our companion." The Yemenite said, "But these people had repudiated him (i.e., their companion)." 'Umar said, "Let fifty persons of Hudhail swear that they had not repudiated him." So forty-nine of them took the oath and then a person belonging to them, came from Sham and they requested him to swear similarly, but he paid one-thousand Dirhams instead of taking the oath. They called another man instead of him and the new man shook hands with the brother of the deceased. Some people said, "We and those fifty men who had taken false oaths (Al-Qasama) set out, and when they reached a place called Nakhlah, it started raining so they entered a cave in the mountain, and the cave collapsed on those fifty men who took the false oath, and all of them died except the two persons who had shaken hands with each other. They escaped death but a stone fell on the leg of the brother of the deceased and broke it, whereupon he survived for one year and then died." I further said, "'Abdul Malik bin Marwan sentenced a man to death in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, basing his judgment on Al-Qasama, but later on he regretted that judgment and ordered that the names of the fifty persons who had taken the oath (Al-Qasama), be erased from the register, and he exiled them in Sham."

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 15:07 #
fayyaz214
Member

@NNL .. your speed reading is killing me :). You did not answer my previouse question .. you said

"You dont have to force a person to accept Islam if he does and if he doesnt he doesnt.",

but the hadith you quoted, if understood without context and without other sayings of prophet and Quran, appears to say that you should fight with them till they become muslim. What am I missing? Here is the portion of the hadith

"I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right?"

no speed reading please :)

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jul 2010 15:13 #
NNL
member

ok
Jazak Allah Khair.

The entire point of it was for you to read the next part of the Hadith where the tribe of Ukl and their actions. They didnt declare war at anyone did they ? they just killed one person that didnt warrant all of them to be killed did it ?

Thus there conclusive evidence that Apostates are to be killed but only under a Ruler's Supervision and by his command or by a Judge's command and NO Vigilantism.

Now to you second question.

What if they dont want to accept Islam simple. Jizya or Fight ?

90% of the people chose Islam (for whatever reason) those who didnt paid Jizya and those who didnt agree to all this left the Muslim lands or fought.

Again dont quote Hadiths when you cant find references for them cos usually the answers are within the Hadiths. Quoting out of context is the tradition and habit of the Jews who are perfect in irritating the Messengers of Allah. Refrain from it please.
Quote the references as much as you can

That Hadith is also quoted in Al Muslim as the following.
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. (Book #001, Hadith #0033)

So you can make of it any which you want Salah and Zakat are also mentioned so what are you trying to convey here.

I seem to be missing the point. ( Promise no speed reading)

Posted 1 year ago on 05 Jul 2010 2:24 #
hkbajwa
Member

I suppose it should come as no surprise that i am categorically against punitive measures in matter of religion and belief.

Resorting to this sort of violence is a fundamental contradiction of the peaceful nature of islam. It's basically like saying "we are peaceful unless you disagree with us in which case you must die". What utter nonsense.

As a muslim who beleives without reservation in the supremacy of allah the undeniable prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh)and the complete authenticity and divine protection of the Quran i consider it a mark of pride that Islam is the only religion with no clergy and no process of excommunication.

The fact that we have a de-facto clergy in the shape of mullahs and a process of excommunication (declaring people apostates and murtads) is a clear sign of the degenerative effects of human innovations in islamic theology.

It is because mullahs need their power and they need a club to weild over the "faithful" that they have rationalized the existence of a primitive and ignorant violent solution.

during the Prophet's (pbuh) time nobody could think of leaving the fold of islam because he provided an ideal example of islam. Our mullahs today have not even a billionth of this capacity to lead by example. instead of correcting themselves and becoming examples worthy of emulation, they shift the onus from their own behavior and instead focus on the easier solution which is to simply kill anybody who disagrees.

The fact that there are people who wish to leave the fold of islam is not a sign that these people are evil, but rather a sign that the "protectors of the faith" are not worthy of following.

If your religion is pathetic enough to lose adherents to other faiths it means there is something fundamentally wrong. instead of fixing this fundamental weakness, the mullahs do what any other primitive baboon would do... resort to violence and threats...

Wow.. well done indeed.

Posted 1 year ago on 05 Jul 2010 9:24 #
fayyaz214
Member

Dear Brother NNL,

1: I respectfully did not come to same conclusion after reading the complete text of hadith as you did. Your conclusion is that that they were killed because of being Apostate and not because they killed someone and ran away. We can agree to disagree on that.

2: I agree with you that you cannot take one hadith and draw a complete ruling from it. To draw the ruling, as you did, about Jizya, you have to look at the complete picture, other ahadith, verses from Quran etc. As the ahadiths that you quoted had NO room for Jizya

3: In the same spirit, what I am humbling suggesting is follwoing ... when you look at the verses of Quran and ahadith and historical events together, it becomes clear that SIMPLE apostate (one who has not committed any other crime) is not punishable to death. We may have to agree to disagree.

قَالَ الْمَلأُ الَّذِينَ اسْتَكْبَرُواْ مِن قَوْمِهِ لَنُخْرِجَنَّكَ يَا شُعَيْبُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَعَكَ مِن قَرْيَتِنَا أَوْ لَتَعُودُنَّ فِي مِلَّتِنَا قَالَ أَوَلَوْ كُنَّا كَارِهِينَ 7-88

The chiefs of his people, who were arrogant, said, :O Shu'aib, we will expel you and those who believe with you from our town, or you shall have to turn to our faith. He said, :Even if we hate it?

In the above verse, Hazrat Shu'aib is expecting from the Kufar to have some common sense and not force people to believe in what they hate. Expectation from a momin, should be at least the expecation from a kafar.

May Allah (SWT) open our hearts to the truth and help us present Islam as it was understood by our beloved prophet and his sahabah. (Ameen)

Posted 1 year ago on 05 Jul 2010 21:07 #
NNL
member

Ya Akhi

I dont know you are doing this on purpose or you are not getting my point.

My post was regarding Apostasy and nothing else. Jizya wasnt under discussion at all. Moreover i didnt derive any ruling on Jizya i followed the example of Rulers who sent expeditions to other places.

There Hadiths and Athar of the Sahaba Radhi Allah Unhu where we can see the apostates were being killed. you can argue with it all you want but at the end of the day there is conclusive evidence that those who took religion directly from the source killed the apostates.

You my friend dont have to like it or agree with it but the ruling stands.

Give the explanation of the Ayah as the Sahaba understood it and mention me an example where an Apostate was set free based on that Ayah.

Dont lie against your Nabi if you are truly a Muslim then Allah as my witness i m telling you that you are lying on the prophet.

In conclusion, the answer is that Allaah is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed. This ruling does not come from the Muslims’ ideas or suggestions. As this is the case, then we must follow the ruling of Allaah so long as we are content to accept Him as our Lord and Ilah

Posted 1 year ago on 06 Jul 2010 5:02 #
NNL
member

To everyone else.

There are numerous Hadiths in the above discussion where Apostates are killed so for the retards who wish to argue with that well can keep on arguing with the Creator and we can facilitate that meeting.

Posted 1 year ago on 06 Jul 2010 5:05 #
hkbajwa
Member

NNL

How does one reconcile the Quranic edict that there is no compulsion in religion with the compulsion and force exerted by the threat of punishment for leaving islam??

Posted 1 year ago on 06 Jul 2010 6:40 #
NNL
member

Very Simple Hk

Rasool Allah never forced anyone to become Muslims. The Sahaba never converted anyone unless they learnt Arabic...

Look Hk Shahadatyn is not a simple saying of words. Its a contract with Allah Azza Wa Jal it has to be fully understood before one can take upon.

You have to know the complete knowledge to what you are about say and its implication. Cos once you enter the contract you are liable for everything that is in the contract.

I would rather have people be non Muslims and then be Muslims and face reprehensible consequences.

And one more thing.

90% of the Sahaba used to talk to the Apostates and work with them before the punishment was given. They tried to figure out why the person is changing his religion and for what reason. IF they can remove the issue maybe he wont. They didnt go into everyone's house to be like Big Brothers and watch over them 24/7 to see when the people have apostatized. When you publicly declare a matter then it becomes a public issue and the public laws are applicable.

Bottomline dont become Muslim before you know what you are signing up for. Its an intelligent decision not some random decision that one can change everyday.

Posted 1 year ago on 06 Jul 2010 7:23 #
hkbajwa
Member

Well no doubt you cannot force anybody to become muslims... but isn't it a contradiction of the said injunction against compulsion when you use the threat of force to KEEP people muslim??

I mean how does this really apply to somebody who was born into a muslim family??

becoming muslim was never his personal choice yet there is a societal compulsion that prevents him from leaving the fold of islam.. he is compelled by the threat of death is he not??

I find apostasy punishments to be dubious to say the least. Firstly because there is no mention of any wordly punishments for an apostate in the Quran, and secondly because the death penalty for anybody who does not agree with the mainstream dogma of islam is a direct contradiction of a very clear quranic edict.

I also sincerely believe that the hadith relating punitive measures against apostates had nothing to do with their BELIEF, but rather their political affiliation. Just as the Jews of khyber were punished for their treason rather than their faith, so too do i belive that the "apostates were punished for treasonous acts against the state and not for their personal belief (or lack thereof).

God only guarantees the autheticity of the Quran for all time. The autheticity of hadith has been established by 1400 years of islamic clerics who honestly have a clear vested interest in the acceptance of such punitive measures.

In this instance the use of force to control the personal faith of people is a breach of the quranic edict and thus i believe that its justification is based on an inaccurate or misunderstood historical account of the Khalifa's ruling.

Posted 1 year ago on 06 Jul 2010 9:33 #
NNL
member

Again its all about the contract and thats it. If you know the contract dont sign up for it if you dont want to and if you do then as everything has consequences so does this contract too.

HK its all about knowledge. In Pakistan they will never ever let you get more knowledge then they have.

Jews were traitors not apostates.

There numerous examples given above and its not only one Khalifa's ruling that we are talking about its all in there. Various accounts which are coming to you if dont give you the clear picture or if you cant seem to understand it. Then i sincerely urge you to read Kitab Al Tawheed Wa Radd Alal Jahimiyya in Sahih Al Bukhari. There is another interesting thing that you will notice that the Arabic version is different from the English version. so my suggestion is that you use the Arabic version.

See for yourself.

Posted 1 year ago on 07 Jul 2010 18:58 #
fayyaz214
Member

@NNL ... I realize that we are not talking about Jizya. My point was, that the ahadith that you quoted, they appear to say that we should fight till people become muslim and there is not exception for Jizya. The conclusion that I am drawing will be incorrect, because elsewhere in hadith and quaran it shows that my conclusion is in correct

Similarly, I am suggesting that if you take all the verse and Quran, Ahadith and Seerah of prophet together, you are bound to come to the conclusion that a SIMPLE appostate who did not commit anything else, should not be killed.

Posted 1 year ago on 07 Jul 2010 20:48 #
hkbajwa
Member

NNL

How is a child born into a muslim family responsible for the contract made on his behalf by his parents??

How is it fair to be imprisoned in a faith because your ancestor made the decision?

Look i am not saying islam isn't THE religion. what i'm saying is that adherence and affiliation to it is a personal matter. Apostasy laws and death punishments are a contravention of the individual's right to follow his conscience.

I could perhaps agree that once a person converts to islam from another religion, he cannot convert back or to a third religion. While i may find the punishment harsh i suppose it's an effective way to establish the seriousness of the committment.

But the VAST majority of muslims int he world are so because they were born into muslim families. They had no choice in the matter, and they will NEVER have the choice because of the apostasy laws. That is not just. It is merely a club wielded by mullahs to ensure that their flock (and thus their power) does not diminish.

And lastly only CERTAIN Jews were traitors, and they were condemned by the other jewish tribes of medina also. Their treachery had nothing to do with their religious affiliation, but rather with the political choice of their leaders.

I presented it as an example of the fact that punitive measures of that sort was taken in keeping with the culture of arabia 1400 years ago and it was purely for political reasons and not for matters of faith.

the simple fact is that the Prophet (pbuh) had no need or wish to maintain his flock through the culling of dissenters. That is what inspired faith and belief. Culling dissenters by sentencing them to death for apostasy inspires fear and weakens faith.

Apostasy laws achieve the exact opposite of what they are meant to. That's because punitive violence in matters of faith is barbaric, inhuman and downright despicable.

Leave unto God the judgement that is His alone. Who is a human to think that he has the right to regulate the individual's relationship with the Creator?

Posted 1 year ago on 08 Jul 2010 9:41 #