NNL
member
I would suggest to the child born in a Muslim family to be more educated in religion before he chooses to be called a Muslim.
Again disagree on the Jewish tribes. I never said that they were apostates i said their were traitors. Different laws apply.
in Answer to your last question i have a response but time doesnt allow me to post it now. will do later.
hkbajwa
Member
NNL
of course. One should do everything to reason with the child and show them how islam is THE religion. But what if he chooses to not believe?
Is it not his basic right to choose what he beleives??
Does his inability or unwillingness to understand justify his murder? Would his murder convince others who think like him that Islam is the RIGHT religion or will it convince them that islam is a VIOLENT and OPPRESSIVE religion??
Think about it... apostasy laws only weaken the faith and cohesion of the ummah. Especially when uneducated **** mullahs start weilding those laws to strike fear and obedience into people.
How many innocents haven't died in pakistan due to the invocation of this law by some idiot village mullah?
raheb
Member
It is very OPENLY in Quran that there is NO punishment for those who leave Islam, in fact it is Allowed, without any fear, and that is good enough to see in the Book of Allah.
raheb
NNL
member
Raheb it may be in the Quran that you read but the Quran and the example of Rasool Allah used by Abu Bakr , Umar, Uthman and Ali tells a very different story than what you like to think. We who call ourselves as Muslims try to follow those who are already in Jannah rather than people whose future is unknown.
Hk
no again there are different ways to apply the punishment. If a person chooses to change his religion can do so. But when the announcement is made public then Public Laws apply.
Like I said for the people who followed the Nabi without any questions considered the Shahada as a Contract with Allah and breaking that contract would result in consequences.
As for weaken religion thats what you may think but its not like that. Its all in the perspectives and thats pretty much it.
hkbajwa
Member
NNL
Why should a person borne into a muslim family not be allowed to publicly profess his religion?
I think this goes against the precedent set by the Prophet (pbuh) who not only allowed non-muslims to openly practice and preach their religion but even allowed christians to pray in his mosque.
It is every human's right to publicly announce his religion without fear of reprisal or punishment. This is not an innovation in islam, but has been part of islam from the very outset.
Like i said, i may consider that a person who converts from another religion to islam of his own volition cannot be allowed to convert again. However why should a person who inherited a religion without his express agreement and consent by denied the right to announce his change of religion?
You are basically saying that muslims are allowed to change their religion in secret as long as it is not made known... How do you justify that?
The fact is that whatever consequences there are for turning away from the right path are only Allah's to decide. You or I are in no way qualified to make a judgement reserved only for Allah.
The insistence that humans are allowed to make this decision and mete out such barbaric punishments is based entirely on the need of the mullahs to maintain the size of their flock. that is why they justify the unjust murder of others by twisting and misrepresenting the actions of the Caliphs.
Think about it man... In no historical account can there be found an example of the Prophet (pbuh) having a man killed for apostasy. There is certainly an account of a Quranic scribe whom Mohammad (pbuh) sentenced to death for aggressively spreading lies and disinformation about the muslims, yet at the conquest of Mecca the Prophet (pbuh) forgave and pardoned him. And his initial death sentence was not based on his personal belief, but rather on his aggressive actions against the muslims i.e for his political actions, not his change in faith.
Now you tell me... should the muslims follow the clearly unjust and obviously misrepresented ruling of a Khalifa... or should a muslim follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh)?
Breaking of the contract with Allah does indeed carry its consequences... however no human is entitled to decide those consequences... those consequences will be decided and imposed by Allah in the hereafter.
raheb
Member
NNL! do you mean that I should see something more after what I have read The Quran????? How comes!!!!!!
When Allah allows that anyone can leave Islam any time, then WHY should you/we "muslims" need to see something more???
There is NO punishment to leave Islam. Just STOP it.
raheb
NNL
member
Raheb so you deny hadith ?
lol well then how do you follow the Ayah in the Quran.
وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّـهَ وَالرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ
Can you enlighten me as to how you obey your messenger ?
You have read the Quran i agree you say you have understood the Quran i agree but have you understood it as Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wa Sallam understood it , i m highly doubtful. Have you understood it like Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wa Sallam Companions understood it ? I dont think so.
We take our religion with the Approval of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wasallam rather than from a person who is unknown.
NNL
member
Hk
The answer to entire post lies in teh understanding of the ruling on Apostasy.
read it up please.
hkbajwa
Member
NNL
Whose ruling?
and where would one read up on it?
raheb
Member
NNL! any book in the world should be understood by the reader, from where you have got that any book should be understood according to what anyother understand it?
Do I really need to understand Quran exactly how The Prophet did? If Yes! WHY Prophet did not write another book to tell and exaplain how he understand Quran? He did not wrote anything beside Quran, but some non-arabic people after about 150 years of the death of Prophet, collected thousands of stories (hadith) but they complied only few thousands in their books, rest they themselves rejected, NOW you are asking to believe on those story books, which The Prohet NEVER wrote and even asked NOT to DO SO.
Omer said, " Hasba-na- Kitab Allah" (Allah's BOOK is enough for us. Prophet was still alive when said it.
raheb
NNL
member
Do I really need to understand Quran exactly how The Prophet did?
so you literally believe that you have a better understanding than your own Nabi on whom the Quran was revealed ? What Arrogance.
you really are ignorant about your own religion arent you?
Have you heard of Al-Sahifa Al Sadiqa or of Al-Sahifa Al-Sahiha ?
NNL
member
What prove do you have regarding what Umer Radhi Allah Unhu Said for all i know you have just made it up ?
Give me your proof ?
fayyaz214
Member
NO one can have better understanding of Quran than our beloved prophet. He was living Quran. The question is, do we have real understanding of how prophet (PBUH) understood Quran?
NNL, I asked you a question, the hadith that you quoted a while back had said that prophet (PBUH) said that he is ordered to fight till people accept Islam. But we don't practice that, because when we read that hadith with verses of Quran, with other Ahadith, with the actions of prophet (PBUH), it becomes clear that if we took that Hadith in isolation from everything else, our understanding will not be that of our beloved prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah (SWT) be upon him).
I am humbly suggesting that if you use the same approach on the punishment of Apostate, you will come to the conclusion that a SIMPLE aposatate, who has not committed any crime should not be punished. I'll request you to read the verses that I quoted in my first post of this discussion and ask yourself on what authority you will limit the meanings of those verses to people who are not muslim. I'll also invite you to read the incidents in the first post by Khan_Sahib where Apostates were NOT killed during the time of prophet. May Allah (SWT) keep our intentions pure and guide us to the True understanding of Islam that was preached and practiced by our beloved Prophet (PBUH), who was merci to mankind.
NNL
member
And i have asked you my friend that you bring your evidences and statements of the Actual Ulema on this subject matter. I have given you evidences with respect to Rasool Allah, His Companions and next 2 generations after that and then the methodology of Four Imams.
So far you have given me some quotes by some retard called Moudoodi and your version of interpretation of the Ayahs.
Ya Akhi i have said earlier my understanding or yours dont matter if they go against Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Aalayhi Wa Sallam.
raheb
Member
NNL! you choose what you want to choose, you reject what you want, exactly I do, who is the judge to decide whom is right?
In this you yourself declare as a judge. If I confront with a hadith, I been declare as "non-believer of hadith", if I don't believe that Jesus is alive I declared a Qaddiyani..... so on and on.......???? how simple it is to put a label on others believe and consider ownself as "truth knower"..??
The evidence you give are correct evidence, the things I wrote you don't believe and ask for evidence. Reminding you that all your evidences are drived from someone's book, same is mine, but you declare your evidence correct but want evidence of my given evidence?????
Can you understand yourself what you are writing and saying? My response is simply "NO", you have no clu of what you are talking about- confused and denial of all such thinkings which do not resemble with yours... by the way, you don't have OWN thinkings as you just quote things which you have read somewhere, but I try to use my own brain cells also, Right or Wrong!!!! consequences are mine but I am NO dependent of any certificate from any one. For me there is NO authority which dictate me what Islam is- MYSELF is authority, and that is GIVEN to me by Allah in HIS book, so I don't need to see anyone outer than me.
I hope you understand what I mean?
raheb
NNL
member
Well Raheb you like to work hard and then achieve nowhere and i like to work smart and get everything with limited effort.
For me the best way possible to follow the thought process used by Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Sallam and its evidenced by the lives of the Companions and the 2 generations after them.
Regarding Bukhari Wa Muslim you didnt answer my question on the other books of Hadiths.
AGain shows you arrogance in your thinking.
Continue my friend and watch the consequences in your life.
raheb
Member
NNL you seems to be a typical mullah like SS and trying to fear me.............. you cannot ne sucessful in such cheap methods. While you also gliding away from main topic and like other mulla's asking personal questions which you have nothing to do with. That is a typical style I am fimiliar with, that when the small knowledge in samll heads become not enough then one starts to ask stupid questions, which do not lead to anywhere, and often such questions are of personal sort and you do not have any right to ask anyone if you understand Islam. I recommend GO and learn Quran and that should be enough for a wise person. And ALLAH called that book as COMPLETE but small and tight minds needs many more books to understand it or so called *complete it*.
raheb
fayyaz214
Member
NNL .. I have given you verses of Quran, incidents from the prophet's (PBUH) life where apostates were not killed. I have explained that the ahadith that you quoted when they are read with verses of Quran and other incidents from the prophet's (pbuh) life, apostate’s issue becomes clear. If you need quotes from ulamas of past, i'll look for those as well. It will take me sometime.
I don't have an iota of doubt in my mind, if my beloved rassool ullah (may Allah's merci and blessings be upon him and his family) were around today, he would absolutely not kill an apostate who has not committed any crime such as mutiny against the state, or killed someone etc. How do I know this? Because this is exactly what he did when he was around. Please read bottom half of Khan_Sahib’s first post. I love our prophet. It breaks my heart when people associate things towards him that is 180 degree different than what he stood for.
@NNL It proves that islam is a brutal religion, it is a total contradiction to the word peace that Muslims claim as the meaning of Islam.
There is a way in but no way out. If there is no way out of Islam, there must not be a way out of any other religion. In other words, no one should convert to islam or any other religion other wise get killed.
raheb
Member
H20!!!! who says there is no way out from Islam????
It is very clear according to Quran that anyone can leave or accept Islam as many time as one wants.... there is NO restriction and NO punishment for it. There is NO Force in Islam which either one can use to convert anyone towards Islam or Stop anyone to leave Islam.
raheb
@raheb then who is NNL and all others who claim killing in case of leaving islam. Your answers are very clear in all discussion, how nnl can claim against Quran?
fayyaz214
Member
@lifeH2O
Please read post number 2 on this thread and decide for yourself what does Quran say about this topic.
raheb
Member
Life H20 it is very clear according to Quran and Fayyaz is also correct.
NNL and Semirza going out of Quran for something which Allah has CLEARLY mentioned in Quran, question is WHY to go to other references while Allah's book is clear??? How and why one need to see other references for something which is crystal clear??? NNL and Semirza with many others can explain it. Semirza even throwing people out from Islam if they do not believe that one cannot leave Islam. There is NO ONEWAY traffic in Islam. I hope they should explain that why they ignore Quran and go to other MAN-MADE references?
raheb
shafiq12
member
/////
I can't believe that Dr. Zakir has said that. He is going against his own words.
NNL
member
This is probably my last post on this topic.
To Raheb.
If you dont consider Hadiths to be a valid form resource of the Sunnah so then how do you know the way you prayer the, nisaab of your zakat and various other things that havent been mentioned in Quran and how would you follow your messenger if you dont know what he did or didnt do ? Where you will you get the Sunnah from ? Denying Hadith or questioning its Authenticity as a fabrication is nothing more than a false claim on the authenticity of the Quran cos the Quran as you have today was written by the same people who have narrated various hadiths. The chains and chains of narrators have been verified as they are the same ones who have narrated the Quran.
As for the apostates being killed AL-Hamduillah in the Religion of Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhis Wasallam the apostate who after making a public announcement of his apostasy and given time to rethink his position and get his doubts/claims/confusions cleared by the Ulema and still doesnt get the point, he is then to be executed (or exiled by the ruler). Its a whole lot better for the Apostate to leave the land and then declare his apostasy cos if the land is under complete Rule of Sharia then his head belongs to the State. I will repeat this again that this only possible in a country where Sharia law is the Supreme law and is to be done by a Judge of a court and the ruler of the Country. No random person is allowed to take such matters into their hands. (Pakistan is not a Sharia oriented country this law doesnt apply)
hkbajwa
Member
@ NNL
Firstly, in the Quran God has only given a guarantee regarding the unchangeable and incorruptible nature of the Quran. No such guarantee has been given by God or his Prophet (pbuh) for the hadith. TO question the hadith is NOT the same as questioning the Quran, and for you to imply that it is the same is not only ignorant but actually deceitful.
secondly, the quran was already written down during the Prophet's (pbuh) time and compiled shortly after his death. The hadith did not start being written down until more than 100 years after the Prophet's (pbuh) death. During this time, in spite of the best intentions of those who transmitted the hadith orally, some inaccuracies could have crept in. In the same way over the many centuries afterwards a slight shift in emphasis, a realignment of words or an outright fabrication is not only possible but highly likely given the ease with which it could be fabricated.
Thirdly, the process of authenticating hadith has never been above reproach. The chains and chains of narrators have been "verified" you say , but verified by whom and under what criteria? Any historical researcher will tell you that the process outlined is full of gaping holes and inadequacies.
You point to the fact that apostates must be killed, but you don't explain where in the Quran you can find any reference to such an atrocity.
The killing of a person because he cannot see reason (which may as well be because of the Ulema's ineptitude in explaining) cannot be deemed as anything but the gravest injustice that shames and disrespects our Merciful God and his Merciful Prophet (pbuh).
Again i repeat... where is the Quranic ayah that justifies the murder of people for no reason other than their belief?
Is life on the wrong path not punishment enough? Will a disbeliever not feel the consequences of his faith in the afterlife? Is there no Day of Judgement where all men will be held accountable? Is there not Allah who will judge each man alone?
If there is, then who are we to take upon ourselves a privelige reserved for Allah EXCLUSIVELY? The Day of Judgement belongs to HIM and so does the Right to Judge.
raheb
Member
First I have to appreciate hkbajwa for his very impressive arguments, containing some reasonable thinkings, thanks Sir.
Now to NNL! first of all you are going out from the topic and make it unnessarily long and boring with typical questions (I want some new and more refined thinkings and arguments).
It is so simple NNL that when things are quite clear in QURAN why should one run to other books? As hkbajwa asked where in Quran it is written to kill someone who leave Islam? Forget shria or not. BUT it is written that just leave such people upon their fate who change from Islam, means NO PUNISHMENT.
NNL! by which criteria can you decide which hadith is correct and which false? What do you think if Prophet should not tell us how to pray, do you think we were sitting from last over than 1400 years and waiting to know how to do the prayer? How do you know to ride a cycle or drive a car?
I do not agree when you say that same people narrated hadith who wrote Islam. The first book of hadith was Bukhari's- who born more than 150 years after the death of Prophet. Bukhari was not a arab. He want around and collected about 4 lakh (400,000) hadith, but he chose himself only about 3 to 4000 thousand to publish, means he himself wasted/ discarded about 396 000 hadiths. Later came, abu-dawood, tirmizi, muslim and many more with their own collection and versions. NOW how you and some people can ask to relay on such material???? I wish those hadith collectors should not have done it, as their material has caused problems and divided muslims. Even Prophet himself warned NOT to wrote anything beside Quran from HIM.
So the reliability of hadiths should not be more than 4-5%.
NNL! WHY and for What I always turn backwards and see how others did???? You are right, Prophet understood Quran best, but when he said to IMMITATE Him? While I have a thinking brain, why should I be a BLIND follower? What will be the difference between me and an animal?
raheb
@NNL As you claim that in Islam apostate must be killed. Ok, you know that other religions etc are not true. They have their own rules.
They must make a another rule to not to leave their religion or even a sect. If one does, kill him. As a result no one should be allowed to leave his/her religion for Islam because he/she is breaking a promise and going against that religion.
When a hindu converts to Islam, he goes against Hinduism. (Meri billi mujhe miaaon, just kill him)
When a Ahamadi accepts Islam he goes against Ahamdis, they must kill him.
So on so forth. I request all other religions or sects to kill the one who leave you and goes against you. All of you are on the right way (you know it very well, that why you are what you are)
hkbajwa
Member
The simple fact is that the death sentence for apostasy is not a punishment for the benefit of Islam the Faith but for the benefit of mullahs and other power-brokers who depend of religion to control the masses.
It is the same as the death penalty for desertion in an army. It is there so generals can kill anybody that does not follow them unquestioningly.
God did not destroy Satan for rebelling. Why then would He demand the death of his most beloved creation for doing so?
The death penalty for apostasy is a lousy human innovation created by weak minded, cruel, unjust and corrupt "scholars" of yesteryear and the quicker the ummah discards this mockery of the Propeht's (pbuh) message, the quicker it will return to its former glory.
shafiq12
member
hqbajwa
The simple fact is that the death sentence for apostasy is not a punishment for the benefit of Islam the Faith but for the benefit of mullahs and other power-brokers who depend of religion to control the masses.
I agree with u, but u know where i differ
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