PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

right hands possess?

(21 posts)
  1. What does right hands possess means?

    004.003
    YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
    PICKTHAL: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
    SHAKIR: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html
    033.050
    YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
    PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
    SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/033.qmt.html

    004.023
    YUSUFALI: Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
    PICKTHAL: Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
    SHAKIR: Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    004.024
    YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
    PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
    SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
    004.025
    YUSUFALI: If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
    PICKTHAL: And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    SHAKIR: And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html
    023.005
    YUSUFALI: Who abstain from sex,
    PICKTHAL: And who guard their modesty -
    SHAKIR: And who guard their private parts,
    023.006
    YUSUFALI: Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,
    PICKTHAL: Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
    SHAKIR: Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/023.qmt.html
    070.029
    YUSUFALI: And those who guard their chastity,
    PICKTHAL: And those who preserve their chastity
    SHAKIR: And those who guard their private parts,
    070.030
    YUSUFALI: Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,
    PICKTHAL: Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy;
    SHAKIR: Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/070.qmt.html
    033.052
    YUSUFALI: It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.
    PICKTHAL: It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth, nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is ever Watcher over all things.
    SHAKIR: It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat_aymanukum
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat_aymanukum_and_sex

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Apr 2010 6:54 #
  2. alraji
    Member

    lota6177

    borther, there is no such thing called ''wa ma malakat aimanukum'' in islam. it is jewish and american propaganda against islam. there have never been any slaves neither males nor females in the history of islam. the links that you have provided are clear proof of it. all these links are form american and jewish websites and they are part of the ongoing propaganda against islamic law (shari'a).

    this is just recently that some of the enemies of islam inserted these things in our books. they want to distort our glorious history and our human rights compatible laws. all the muslims should be aware of such conspiracies. they need to read their glorious history to know the reality of this propaganda.

    they even have the same propaganda against our prophet (SAW) that he had slaves and that his son Ibrahim was born from slave girl Maria. there is only one purpose behind all this conspiracy that Quran has clarified 1400 years ago in these words:

    '''Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.''' 2:120

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Apr 2010 10:22 #
  3. alraji
    Can you please recommend some books I can read to get the right information? Can you also shed some light on how Jews and christens have corrupted Muslim history? What does right hand possesses means in the Quran? Did you take the time to read the Ayahs above?

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Apr 2010 10:45 #
  4. alraji
    Member

    lota

    '''''Can you please recommend some books'''''

    brother the book of god is not so easy to be understood by common people with self study. you need the help of real god fearing ulama to understand it. as you need years for learning engineering and medicine same is the case with islam. one has to spare years only then can it be understood in its letter and spirit coz the letter can be misguiding many times.

    actually we try to read texts with our distorted view of the world. how can we then expect that we will understand the real meaning behind the word of God. if you are really sincere, as it seem that you are, i will suggest to enroll in a madrasa and give it at least 4 or 5 years. it will help you in this world and of course in the hereafter. wish you best of luck.

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Apr 2010 11:37 #
  5. Can you suggest a madrassa where I can enroll at my earliest convenience?
    The ayahs that are quoted above are from the Quran and they mention right hand possess. Can you explain to me with your superior wisdom and understanding what are they about.

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Apr 2010 11:50 #
  6. alraji
    Member

    ''''Can you suggest a madrassa'''

    i think deobandi madrasas are better. they have the best interpretation of islam these days... you will find their madrasas in every city and even in every village. even where there is no primary school our great ulama have established madrasas there to educate people. this is why even musharaf called them the best NGOs in education sector.

    you can find some of the madrasas here that you may like to join:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrassas_in_Pakistan

    i will however recommend lal masjid madrasa. i hope you know that our great mujahid hazrat maulana abdul aziz sahib has been released with the help of Allah and has again started his madrasa near faisal mosque (not far away from Dr. AQKhan's home). in current situation it would be the best choice for you.

    ''right hand possess'' mean something that you have got in the right way without the violation of any rule of sharia law. i hope its clear now. i already know you will ask more questions now. therefore i suggested to join a madrasa so that you can understand the spirit of islam.

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Apr 2010 13:39 #
  7. NNL
    member

    possibly some hindus girls from your town Vicky Mallu!!

    Yall couldnt save them years ago and wont be able to save them now.

    So now u know

    whatcha gonna do

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Apr 2010 11:45 #
  8. NNL
    tumhara family background tumharie language saie nazar aa reha haie.

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Apr 2010 21:32 #
  9. How can a just moral god can sanction slavery as an institution? If god accepts slavery as an institution and it can be entered by human beings under certain conditions. Is he really a just moral god?
    Is this what you would call perfect moral standard?

    Posted 2 years ago on 26 Apr 2010 22:24 #
  10. Can anyone educate me on where the perfect religion stands on the issue of slavery?

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 May 2010 21:05 #
  11. I wonder why this thread has no comments?
    Is slave ownership a good moral thing?
    Can good moral values be expected out of slave owners?

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 May 2010 9:23 #
  12. Curus the great in 576 BC abolished Slavery, only hired paid labor, gave men and women equal pay and gave freedom of religion to his subjects
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great
    http://www.answers.com/topic/cyrus-ii-of-persia#Legacy
    In 539 BC, Cyrus the Great issues the Cyrus cylinder and abolishes slavery[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

    The whole argument that slavery was to be abolished gradually and society was not ready for abolition goes out the window. Slavery was abolished in Persia 1000 years ago. Women had equal rights as men and there was freedom of religion.
    http://www.chnpress.com/news/?section=2&id=7423
    Cyrus Charter of Human rights.
    http://mani.tk/persepolis-cyrus.htm
    http://mani.tk/zoroastrian.htm

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jun 2010 4:54 #
  13. hkbajwa
    Member

    I think it's important to note that the focus in on the "proper acquisition" element in all the ayahs.

    It is not "slaves" or "servants".

    I find this to be important because in today's world a slave cannot be posseessed by the right hand. Meaning it is not possible in today's world to own a slave without being a criminal.

    Islam is flexible enough to incorporate civilizational changes, and in today's world the ownership of other humans is considered a crime. Thus referring to slave women who were a part of the social fabric in the Prophet's (pbuh) time in a way that puts greater importance on "legal acquisition" ensures that it cannot be exploited today.

    Since slavery is a crime worldwide, under no social norms is it possible to own a person legally. It makes the whole point moot.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jun 2010 16:32 #
  14. 1. I think it's important to note that the focus in on the "proper acquisition" element in all the ayahs.
    It is not "slaves" or "servants".

    Hkbajwa I really don’t understand your post. What is the focus on proper acquisition? Is there any other interpretation?

    I find this to be important because in today's world a slave cannot be possessed by the right hand. Meaning it is not possible in today's world to own a slave without being a criminal.

    Why is slavery illegal in today’s world? Did the perfect religion outlaw it? Cyrus the great did outlaw slavery a 1000 years before Islam. His kingdom spanned from Persia to Greece. There was no social upheaval so why was everyone else afraid to abolish slavery? Why did god choose not to say “Thou shall not do slavery”? He did take his time laying out the conditions for it and told the slave owners to be merciful and compassionate. He also told slave owners to free slaves if they saw the good in a captive. So by default keep him captive if you see bad in him So bad luck slave boy I don’t see any good in you but hey I am compassionate so eat this orange and praise the lord. Than finish your chores and if you’re a female captive let’s not even go there. You are right hand possess. Cyrus the great abolished slavery and paid equal pay to men and women. Was it it so hard to ablish slavery 1000 years later in Arabia?

    Islam is flexible enough to incorporate civilization changes, and in today's world the ownership of other humans is considered a crime.

    Please provide my with the flexible ayahs or point towards the flexibility in the ayahs listed above.

    Thus referring to slave women who were a part of the social fabric in the Prophet's (pbuh) time in a way that puts greater importance on "legal acquisition" ensures that it cannot be exploited today.

    I can’t wait to find out what is this “legal acquisition”? Cyrus the great who was just a Persian king made ground breaking reform 1000 years before Islam in his expansive kingdom. Did Islamic reformation surpassed or equal him a 1000 years later?

    Since slavery is a crime worldwide, under no social norms is it possible to own a person legally. It makes the whole point moot.

    Please answer this simple question “did Quran, Sunnah or Sharia outlaw slavery? What made it impossible to own slaves? Does the credit for abolishment of slavery go to god? If yes than please provide reference and that shouldn’t be asking for too much.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 4:30 #
  15. zia m
    Member

    lota,
    The persian Empire was the glorious period of human history.It was far greater than the Romans or the Greeks.It is a shame much of their history is lost.
    The videos you posted are great they need to be on main discuss page.

    You know the religions are all man made, Islam was a "New and Improved" version of Judaism.It emphasized on better treatment of the slaves.

    It is amazing how the Iranians are being fooled by these Ayatollahs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 5:50 #
  16. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ lota

    Listen i find the thought of slavery as distasteful as you do. The mere thought of "owning" another human being is enough to make me feel a little ill.

    Yet the whole point is that the Quran needs to be taken in its historical context.

    For instance, the acceptance of polygamy in Islam is not an endorsement. It is an acceptance of the political and social structure of the people among whom the Prophet (pbuh) lived. In no way is it promoted as preferable, rather conditions are laid down to make it extremely difficult for a man to manage 4 wives. Yet if at the time the Quran had promoted monogamy as the only form of wedlock, it would not only have seriously disturbed the social structure of arabia, but seen in the context of the many ayahs freeing women and accepting their worth as individuals, it would have unnecessarily have damaged the cohesion of the muslims.

    Likewise raids on caravans and the taking of booty and prisoners as slaves was an integral part of arabian culture. The Prophet (pbuh) could not deny a cultural reality and of course the Quran could not speak to a people while denying their reality.

    However by putting focus on the "proper acquisition" it left the judgement on the propriety of slave ownership to human beings.

    Today mankind has come to the conclusion that slavery is barbaric, a violation of basic human rights and a crime.

    Thus the right hand can never possess another human being. There is simply no way of proper acquisition of slaves. It doesn't exist.

    So while the Quran does not outlaw slavery ( leaving it instead to humanity to see the evil of slavery for itself) the words of the Quran do not clash with our reality today where slavery is a heinous crime.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 5:58 #
  17. zia m
    Member

    Divine laws are the Universal Constants, they never change.A slight variation in gravitational force or a change in laws of thermodynamics will cause the universe to cease to exist.
    To blame God for polygamy, misogyny or slavery is a cruel joke with Divinity.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 6:37 #
  18. hkbajwa
    Listen i find the thought of slavery as distasteful as you do. The mere thought of "owning" another human being is enough to make me feel a little ill.
    Yet the whole point is that the Quran needs to be taken in its historical context.

    What is historical context? It's to place an event or situation in a given period of time or era.
    The point I made in an earlier post was that Cyrus the great who was a Persian king whose kingdom spanned from Persia to Greece which is a vast area compared to Arabian Peninsula already abolished slavery 1000 years ago. His territory included areas where slavery was a norm but he outlawed it. His subjects obeyed him and the sky did not fall. Still 1000 years later we find that god again in his last book of perfection allows slavery as a thing that can be entered in under certain conditions. The owning of human beings as property is not a godly thing to do under any circumstances. Yet we see it codified and there are certain rules that can be followed to do right hand possess by divine permission. We see it happen in every major religion be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam or Hinduism. Can this be justified using the pretext of historical context?

    For instance, the acceptance of polygamy in Islam is not an endorsement. It is an acceptance of the political and social structure of the people among whom the Prophet (pbuh) lived. In no way is it promoted as preferable, rather conditions are laid down to make it extremely difficult for a man to manage 4 wives. Yet if at the time the Quran had promoted monogamy as the only form of wedlock, it would not only have seriously disturbed the social structure of Arabia, but seen in the context of the many ayahs freeing women and accepting their worth as individuals, it would have unnecessarily have damaged the cohesion of the Muslims.

    It would have unnecessarily have damaged the cohesion of the Muslims. Can you explain this a little further as how this would have damaged the cohesion of the Muslims? Again let me ask you a simple question. Who gave women more rights and freedom? Cyrus the great or …….?

    Likewise raids on caravans and the taking of booty and prisoners as slaves was an integral part of Arabian culture. The Prophet (pbuh) could not deny a cultural reality and of course the Quran could not speak to a people while denying their reality.

    I am sorry but this is not moral conduct. I understand this was part of the local culture but all this cannot be justified as conduct sanctioned by god. This conduct is human all too human. Slavery was integral part of every culture but how come Cyrus the great outlawed it 1000 years ago from Persia to Greece and everyplace in between in his kingdom. How come the sky did not fall but hell would have broken loose if slavery would have been outlawed by god in Arabia 1000 years later. I simply don’t buy this argument.

    However by putting focus on the "proper acquisition" it left the judgment on the propriety of slave ownership to human beings. Today mankind has come to the conclusion that slavery is barbaric, a violation of basic human rights and a crime.

    Today was 560 BC which was 1000 years before Islam. Some people just did not get the memo.

    Thus the right hand can never possess another human being. There is simply no way of proper acquisition of slaves. It doesn't exist.

    Then why do the ayahs say otherwise.

    So while the Quran does not outlaw slavery
    ( leaving it instead to humanity to see the evil of slavery for itself) the words of the Quran do not clash with our reality today where slavery is a heinous crime.

    The word of the Quran and other scriptures does clash with the reality of today. When we say no to slavery we are saying no to something that is permissible under certain conditions. It has been clearly codified. There is nothing in the holy book that says that a decision needs to be made in the future by humans after they see its evils. You are making morality as you go along according to what we know today to be right or wrong.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 6:48 #
  19. @ zia m
    I agree with everything you said in your posts and I think all the points you have made in your posts deserve a thread on their own.
    I would like to make a few must see recommendations to you
    http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=244
    2nd link for the same video
    http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=3884
    The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. This is a must watch six part documentary
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Myth
    The second documentary is the day the universe changed by James burke.
    The series' primary focus is on the effect of advances in science and technology on western philosophy. The title comes from the philosophical idea that the universe essentially only exists as you perceive it through what you know; therefore, if you change your perception of the universe with new knowledge, you have essentially changed the universe itself.

    To illustrate this concept, James Burke tells the various stories of important scientific discoveries and technological advances and how they fundamentally altered how western civilization perceives the world. The series runs in roughly chronological order, from around the beginning of the Middle Ages to the present.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Universe_Changed
    The third is again connections season 1, 2 and three by James burke.
    It took an interdisciplinary approach to the history of science and invention and demonstrated how various discoveries, scientific achievements, and historical world events built off one another in an interconnected way to bring about particular aspects of modern technology. The series was noted for Burke's crisp and enthusiastic presentation (and dry humour), historical reenactments, intricate working models, skillful use of classical music (most notably "Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi" ["O Fortuna"] from Carmina Burana), and location shooting from as far afield as Penang (Malaysia).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)
    You would get all this stuff at the first link in this post.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 7:03 #
  20. zia m
    Member

    lota,
    I watched Power of Myth series on PBS but has been a long time would love to revisit.
    Burke, i am not familiar with sounds good.
    Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 7:19 #
  21. A good example of "Right hand possession" is Rehana, a jewish lady who was a free woman before her tribe was attacked by the Prophet and his devout followers because male members of her tribe were doing some SHAZESHAIN against muslims.She became "Right hand possession" of the man who claimed to be mercy to mankind

    Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jun 2010 18:12 #

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