PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

"Second Marriage in Islam" Polygamy more than one marriage

(24 posts)

  1. adnanarham
    Member

    Dear Readers i put a contraversial issue infront of all of you people. As this debate begins from punjab assemble after a member raised this issue and a female parlimentarian support it named samena khawar. I need fruitful comments as this issue is one of the core issue not only in pakistan but also all over the world.
    I wrote my comments as welll in a programme neme Front line a non-muslim also criticize about the said issue over there i think we should give valid reasons for the said topic and don't be emotional and narrow minded. and should consider islamic point of view in our answer.

    http://pkpolitics.com/2010/02/20/front-line-20-february-2010/#comment-290737

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Feb 2010 21:01 #

  2. adnanarham
    Member

    Link of the programme

    http://pkpolitics.com/2010/02/20/front-line-20-february-2010/

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Feb 2010 21:03 #

  3. adnanarham
    Member

    Now i pay my tribute to miss sameena khawar b/c atleast is door men aise bold baat kehna bhi kisi jahad se kamm nahi hay,
    17% female hamari society men aisi hain jo umarried hain due to over age divorse or widowed u know its about 1,3000,000. un aurtoon ka kya bane ga suppose app ki apni sister, daughter kisi waja se shadi na ho sake ya phir talaq ho jaiye ya widowed aisi aurtoon ka kya hoga kya unhain society kay rehm-o-karam pe choor diya jaye?

    A person asked a question over there. After a littile discussion i find he is a non-muslim

    His question is that
    But if it is allowed I am just curious why only man is allowed to keep multiple wives, why woman can not keep multiple husbands?

    When I asked this question to molvi sahib back in days his brief explanation was how would you know who is the father of the kid. Well DNA tests these days can sort this out beyond doubt. As far as financial affordability of multiple spouses is concerned I think there ‘d be few women, like men, who ‘d be able to manage that.

    Then i replied

    imam abu hanifa kay time pe ye masla khawateen ney pocha tha kay why female were not allowed to get more than one marriage at a time then his daughter gave the answer to this question that it is not possible to differentiate that to whome the child belongs. DNA test haha, jis mulk men logon ko rotti moyaser nahi wahan pe app DNA test ki baat kar rahe hoo shayad khalayee makhlooq hoo? by the way DNA test jahan pe hota hay wahan aurat kay sath kya kuch nahi hota i m in uk yehan pe only 1 shadi by law allow hay male ko but a male can make relation as many female as he wanst koye restriction nahi hay. and most of the male do it kya earstern women dosri shadi kay bajaye apne husband ka aisa raltion bardasht kar sakti hain. Second DNA test ajj ki invension hay ajj se 50 years pehle kya app ka jawab bhi yehi hota? jo cheze har time kay liye yaksan nahi ho then it is wrong aur ye shaitani answer hay. jo app ka dimagh men aya hay.

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Feb 2010 21:09 #

  4. adnanarham
    Member

    I do apologize about that the person who ask from me such question he replied that he is not a non-muslim but accoding to his question i guess it i also post his question over here.

    His name is time
    "I am against polygamy be it for man or woman. In your books the later doesn’t exists at all. My out-of-the-box question if you allow for one why not both? If it’s up to me I won’t defend/allow any sort of polygamy."

    and

    BTW I also do not understand why muslim male can marry non-muslim divine religion follower female but muslim woman does not have that option? Male domination is reflected in all religions and old doctrines and Islam is no exception. And why just devine religions why not hindus, Budists etc? Probably bcaz Islam originated in Arab pinnesula and it adressed their issues primarily. If it’s origin were in subcontinent it might had different sort of cultural influences?

    These are his question due to which i guess. I apologize from him and from Allah but my point of view is also clear
    what does mean by your books
    and a muslime critisize on islam like that way i never believe?

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Feb 2010 22:23 #

  5. adnanarham
    Member

    time said:
    @adnanarham

    You picked my one line out of context and declared me non muslim and that was the end of the argument, mashallah. I am not surprised I have talked to contractors of Islam like you many times in the past. There best answer to every question that they can not answer is that you are not muslim.

    My reply is simple I am not satisfied with he rights Islam has given to women. I do not believe in polygamy, I believe women’s vote is equalivent to men, women can lead the nation. I donot believe woman is lesser than a man in any way and I do not need your certificate to be muslim. If you don’t have arguments don’t defend Islam. You are not entitled to define Islam. You have no right to throw

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Feb 2010 22:24 #

  6. adnanarham
    Member

    adnanarham said:
    @ time
    I am extremely sory for that but if you ask someone else about your comment and context so i think i is cleared that you are related to any other religion. Let me paste all the things what you post before

    “I am against polygamy be it for man or woman. In your books the later doesn’t exists at all. My out-of-the-box question if you allow for one why not both?”

    If a person read this line what should he thought your books simply( Quran and Hadees )

    I misguide not due to my intension but what you poste over here. I appologized from Allah

    second post of yours

    “BTW I also do not understand why muslim male can marry non-muslim divine religion follower female but muslim woman does not have that option? Male domination is reflected in all religions and old doctrines and Islam is no exception. And why just devine religions why not hindus, Budists etc? Probably bcaz Islam originated in Arab pinnesula and it adressed their issues primarily. If it’s origin were in subcontinent it might had different sort of cultural influences”

    you criticize not only marriage of a muslim male at the time of Prophet muhammad sala-o-alai wasalam but also comment on that period of islam and relate religion with an area all such comments if any muslim will read i don’t think he will consider it is an opinion of a muslim.

    Apni Millat pe Qiyas Aqwam-a-maghrib se na Kar
    Khas Hay tarkeeb men Qoom-a-Rasool-a- Hashmi.

    During your whole discussion you never ever put any comment or any referance of any quranic verse or any Hadees even did not said any thing about Prophet Muhammad so what should i think about you.
    For you discussion ends but my views are clear enogh first read whatever you right i don’t think a modern muslim even he knows a little about islam will write whatever you post over here.
    You are not clear about why islam give such type of permission, you misguide people by giving some moderate views about equality of women.
    Islam give much more right to a women if you are not satisfied its your personal issue don’t bother people. before islam there is no concept of women rights read the history of arab, indo pak and any civilized nation of that time. Islam give much more right to a women than any religion and nation in the form of mother, sister, daughter and wife.
    I use to live in a moderanized and well cultured and well mannered society here law give much more rights to a women but even then here there is no value of a women
    just like a tissue paper they change a girl like a tissue. only fulfill their disire from women there not exist a relation like a mother a sister a daughter or even a wife. Female leave a horrible life over here after maturily they left their parents, use to live an independent life. after used by 100th of male and crossing the age limit no one think about them.
    You never ever justified my raisese question. only try to see one side of the coin or from your own glassese.
    I again say be realistic put your comment with realization and justification. and kindly show your identity. Even now i m don’t think you ask any thing from any molvi or you search anything about islam and did not get answer if you truely try to find it

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Feb 2010 22:25 #

  7. hkbajwa
    Member

    Well Samina Hayat's statements was massively stupid to say the least.

    Already we live in a country where women are scarcely treated as human, and now she is suggesting that women be deprived of yet another right to veto the husband's decision to bring another woman into the family. How can that be termed as fair?

    Is Islam really a religion where women are supposed to have NO RIGHTS?? Is a muslim wife really nothing more than a man's possession?

    Mind you, even in islam, contracting 4 marriages is not termed "ideal". It is a MAXIMUM LIMIT to ensure that rich men with overactive libidos don't go ahead and create harems with hundreds of wives.

    And even then it is only permitted if the man can afford to take care of all 4 on equal basis. If a man contracts a second wife without the acceptance of the first, is he treating her equally?? After all equality of treatment is not jsut in terms of mentary goods, but also in terms of time, attention and love.

    I believe that there is no harm in polygamy. In some cases it can actually work out very well for a family. However it requires the consent and involvement of ALL members of the family and not just the male.

    Also, there is another aspect that seems to be forgotten. In today's world if a woman is not married, that does not mean that her life is at an end. This assumption that the height of achievement for a woman is marriage and children belongs to the middle ages.

    Women are thankfully beginning to play a larger role in our workforce and economy, and they are becoming capable of supporting themselves and their families like never before. Did madam Hayat ever stop to think that what women REALLY need is equal opportunity in the workplace and a public environment free of sexual discrimination. Then perhaps these problems for single women would be solved. Taking yet another right away from then absolutely WILL NOT do that.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 5:19 #

  8. azzmat
    Member

    hkbajwa
    Mind you, even in islam, contracting 4 marriages is not termed "ideal". It is a MAXIMUM LIMIT to ensure that rich men with overactive libidos don't go ahead and create harems with hundreds of wives.

    Facilitating the sexual life of the rich men sounds very moral. The sky would fall if rich guy does not have halal sex with mulitple partners.

    And even then it is only permitted if the man can afford to take care of all 4 on equal basis.

    How do you treat 2, 3 or 4 wife's on equal basis? Is it something that is possible to acheive?

    If a man contracts a second wife without the acceptance of the first, is he treating her equally?? After all equality of treatment is not jsut in terms of mentary goods, but also in terms of time, attention and love.

    What is this equality?

    I believe that there is no harm in polygamy. In some cases it can actually work out very well for a family. However it requires the consent and involvement of ALL members of the family and not just the male.

    Are you a part of a polygamous family? What are you basing this assumption on? Does your wife know about your ideas? Please let her know what you think of plural marriages and kindly share her reaction

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 10:58 #

  9. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Azzmat

    Well first of all i do not consider polygamy to be the choice for ME. As a man, it takes the utmost amount love, attention and effort to deal with the wonderfully complex and complicated beings that are women. I personally feel i am barely managing with one woman, and i could not image ever trying to do it with 2 or more.

    That said, i can not claim to speak for all men and women in this world. Polygamy is practiced in many forms with varying degrees of formal agreement all over the world. I believe it is a personal choice of lifestyle, and if all parties in a plygamous union agree, then who am i to pass judgement.

    However it is extremely important that all parties involved in such a relationship, do so of their own free will. Otherwise it cannot work out to everyone's satisfaction.

    My point about the 4 marriages allowed in Islam was to clarify that 4 marriages is the MAXIMUM LIMIT. Considering the social structure in which this limit was passed i.e 600Ad in the arab peninsula, 4 wives was a severe limitation on what was the norm at the time. When you take this into account, Quranic law was actually to minimize the number of people involved in a polygamous union.

    Muslims today should also not take the maximum limit as an obligation to marry at least 4 wives. Indeed i believe that the conditions set in the Quran that all 4 must be treated equally is simply not possible in real life. That is why i mentioned love, care and attention.. how can that ever be measured equally??

    I believe that men and women are equal and each has the potential to contribute and complement their partner equally but differently. To me, a monogamous relationship allows each person to complement each other to the maximum.

    But again.. as long as all parties involved have their rights secured and are agreed upon the relationship, who am i to judge?

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 11:52 #

  10. azzmat
    Member

    Agar Islam maie sujda jaiiz hota tu aurat khawand ku kartie. If i can get a dime for the times I have heard that. Most women in polygamy are in it because they were born into a religion that brainwashes them and persuades and conditions them that they must obey and be controlled by men or go to hell, quite literally. Polygamy isn't about religion. It's about greed and dominance. It is exploitation of women. Men get their "jollies" and the women share the man. Polygamy is only successful when women's rights are suppressed. When you study religious polygamy, you find that the men leave the women to work it out. The women have to compete for what are always scarce resources. That means affection, money, food and time. They have to compete for resources for their own kids and they have to protect their kids from the other wives who want the most for theirs. It turns into a jealous and competitive mess. There are no rules for how to get along or run things. Often one wife is in charge of money. How would you like trying to get stuff from a supposed equal whom you hate? These women aren't in it by choice in the sense that the rest of us see 'choice'. When you are 22 with 4 kids, you have nowhere to go. The children are neglected. They get less time with the father as compared to children in a normal (single wife) marriage. Most children are raised by slightly older kids rather than adults. They dont get one on one quality time with the father. Why should this be encouraged?

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 12:39 #

  11. zia m
    Member

    It is a shame, instead of trying to eradicate the wretched cultural custom of dowry our MPA wants to legalize abomination of polygamy.
    I don't think we have disproportionate female population in our country like 1400 years ago when a large number of male population was getting killed in battles.
    We need to focus on cultural and social issues and bring women on an equal footing in our society.Polygamy and misogny is not the answer better education and providing employment opportunities for women is the solution.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 18:37 #

  12. adnanarham
    Member

    For Ziz a , azzmat and hkbajwa

    I have a request from all of you kindly listen the follow answer regarding polygamy.

    All of you trying to say or it looks like that polygamy is just like a sin. For male, kindly if you don't want polygamy then don't try to impose your personal views that it is just like a sin. kindly go through the following link
    All of you people did not discuss about the 17% of women(1,3000,000) in pakistan who are unmarried due to the said reasons either widowed, over age, divorced or due to the culture of dowery in our society. Plz don't become emotional justified your answer if you people are really talk about female or their issue.

    First listen then comment. so that i be able to reply what you people really want to discuss.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 20:48 #

  13. adnanarham
    Member

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 20:49 #

  14. adnanarham
    Member

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 21:05 #

  15. adnanarham
    Member

    For Financial point i want to share Two Hadis

    Hadees ka mafhoof hay Aik Daffa aik sahabi Razialla-anhon Hazrat Muhammad Sala-o-alai wasalam
    kay pass aye and say Allah kay Rasool Sala-o-alai wasalam meri aik B.V hay aur bache hain men bohat Tangdast hoon mera rozgar nahi hay men kya karoon. Nabi kareem Sala-o-alai wasalam ney unhain kaha kay tum nikkah kar loo. Wo sahabi chale gaye then kuch arse baad phir atey hain and say Allah kay Rasool Sala-o-alai wasalam men tang dast hoon mere halat kharab hain Nabi kareem Sala-o-alai wasalam ney usay kaha kay tum nikkah kar loo then he go back and he do it means third shadi phir kuch arse baad Hazrat Muhammad Sala-o-alai wasalam se un sahabi ki mulaqat hoti hay then App Sala-o-alai wasalam
    un se pochte hain tumhara kya hall hay he say men abb bohat khoosh hall hoon, he says mene App Sala-o-alai wasalam kay kehne kay mutabiq third marriage kar li meri tesri b.v bohat samajh dar thi us ney ghar men akar hamari kharab muashi halat ki waja dekhi aur us nay mujhe mashora diya kay hamain kis tarha se is halat se nikalna chahiye then hum sab means meri baqi 2 bevian aur bache sab mill kar ghar men hi aik business start kiya meri b.v aur bache ghar men kuch chezain(might be carpet or some commodity) banate aur men market men sell karta is tarha bohat jald hi mere halat ache ho gaye aur ajj men khoosh hall hoon.

    Aik sahabi Hazrat Muhammad Sala-o-alai wasalam kay pass aye he says men shadi karna chahta hoon but mere pass kuch nahi hay Hazrat Muhammad Sala-o-alai wasalam ney poch koye cheze ho he says ye metal ki ring hay Hazrat Muhammad Sala-o-alai wasalam ney kaha yehi kafi hay mehar kay liye tum nikkah kar loo. then he do nikkah

    sabaq ye hay kay islam ney nikkah ko asan banaya hay aur hamari society ney nikkha ko mushkill aur zinna ko asan kar diya hay aik normal shadi men expense jo hota hay wo normaly 5 to 7 lack hay from one side. I discuss about in city areas like karachi lahore etc.
    shadi kay badd larki aur larke kay ghar wale qaraz dar ho jate hain b/c society ko mun dikhane kay chakar men aur society ki rasam pori karne kay liye wo aisa karte hain.
    like shadi men jaheez lazmi dena hay jewellery wo bhi gold ki lazmi deni hay movie , shadi hall kay expense, luxirious dinner. if some one calculate then hamare mulk men ghareeb ghar ki 70% bachion ki shadi possible nahi hay.
    Meri guzarish hay Tamam afrad se shadi ko asan karain specially male se kay he should take some bold steps.

    Jaheez ka inkar kar dain kay condition hi yehi rakhain kay jaheez nahi lain gain, Sedhe tareqe se nikkah karain masjid men ya ghar pe and then Larki ko rukhsat kara lain means koye barrat ka chakar movie xyz na karain .
    Then valima sunnat hay lihaza apni taufeeq kay mutabiq valima ka dinner dain thats all. shadi jitni sada aur asan hogi future men rishte utne hi mazboot hongain; ye kehna kay jaheez ki waja se susral men izzat nahi ho gi ye hamari society ki soch hay jo is talk show men bhi nazar ati hay but i say step lena mard ka kamm hay aur aurat ko support karna hoga chahe wo mother ho sister ho or the girl to whome he is going to marry. All should think.
    Education give us thinking so should think and implement.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 21:25 #

  16. adnanarham
    Member

    How polygamy in west. How they mannage and thinking.Please listen carefully

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 21:31 #

  17. zia m
    Member

    Save your breath.I have watched this rubbish before.All the Abrahimic religions advocate subjugation of women.
    I was sick of Christian televangelists, now we have Muslim televangelists.
    Slavery is also allowed by the same religions.We have a very high unemployment rate so let us bring back slavery.
    These Holy Parasites (Mullahs) are bent upon taking us back to iron age.
    Be true to your religion, go marry as many women you want.Nobody is stopping you, I'm not buying your nonsensical arguments.Talk about social reforms and we will support you.

    PS:You should have read some of the comments under the links you posted could have saved a lot of effort on your part.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 22:25 #

  18. adnanarham
    Member

    Which social reform you want to discuss. It is not a social issue?
    You want to provide good environment for women to work only.

    "It is a shame, instead of trying to eradicate the wretched cultural custom of dowry our MPA wants to legalize abomination of polygamy."

    "I don't think we have disproportionate female population in our country like 1400 years ago when a large number of male population was getting killed in battles."

    Your thinking is yours but statistical data tell us the truth. Go outside and see your sarrounding! really it is a wrong statement about 17% women they are not a part of your society you say social issue. what else issue you want to dicuss.

    "We need to focus on cultural and social issues and bring women on an equal footing in our society.Polygamy and misogny is not the answer better education and providing employment opportunities for women is the solution"7

    You only want women to work. only work what is the purpose of creation of man and women. I never ever say women should treated like a slave and don't allow to get knowledge education and even work. I suppose women should be more educated so that she can educate the future generation in best way.But education does not mean that women must do a 9 to 5 job.
    But for your type of person the purpose of women is only having job job and job to nourish your type of male only.

    I do agree women should do job and provide a good environment if she wants to run her family and try to fulfill basic needs of life due to economical condition and injustice in society but not every women wants to do a job of 9 to 5 like a male for the whole life with an exception of few. If you ask a women in general she never ever wants to do such type of job which will affect her family life, children so on. Thats why normally female do prefer a job of minimum hours and respectible one like teaching, physician etc. where they feel much more security.
    But for you every women starts do work work and work the purpose of life is only work,
    i never understand which social reform you want to discuss.

    You have no justification regarding the posted links. you only try to impose your mind set social i don't think you know what social means and how society became in balance.
    I did not tell i m going to marry as many women as i want.
    You turn the topic in wrong direction.
    By the way your arguments look like you are mulla regarding mixing two differant things i.e slavery.
    Here unemployement does not mean slavery. your arguments are baseless thats why i say before justify you answers if you have proper justification. I know you don't have any justification rather diverting from the topic and issues.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Feb 2010 23:23 #

  19. zia m
    Member

    Dowry: Crime or Custom?
    What is dowry? Encyclopedias, thesaurus and dictionaries have explained it beautifully and simplistically. To me it is a form of culturally sanctioned and socially acceptable violence not only against women but men too.Despite relatively uninformed and unprepared acceptance of globalization as a way of life, it appears rather strange that the institution of marriage is still intact in Pakistan. Marriage is an important event in the life of a Pakistani woman. Getting married early is being lucky.

    Obligatory Jahez takes a heavy toll on the family of dulhan - the bride. Dowry is a multi-faceted deep-rooted gender issue with social, economic and health consequences. In spite of a consensus on disliking the practice, only a few have the courage to disown it.According to renowned Indian writer Shri Sharma the “evolution” of dowry is originally from a gift creating expectation leading to demands and greed. A large dowry can be an important attribute of status to both men and women.Dowry, which is popularly considered as a Hindu custom, has visibly migrated, escalated and embraced in all the areas of the present day Pakistan. It has become an active tradition, norm and religious practice for those who believe that there is an absence of such custom and tradition in their faith. The implication of this convenient forgetfulness is inattentiveness to dowry-related violence.

    http://sachet.org.pk/home/gender_columns/webcolumn_27.asp

    Like i said in my previous post dowry in addition to violence against women is major cause of women remaining unmarried.
    If we can eradictae this curse and educate our women there won't be any need for polygamy.

    .

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Feb 2010 0:31 #

  20. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Adnanarham

    First of all the number of women in the country is actually greater than the number of males. The 17% that you speak of have a tough time getting married but enforced polygamy on the rest of the women is not the answer.

    Rather, single men having trouble getting married should consider letting go of some of their prejudices regarding divorced and widowed women. Perhaps it should also fall to the men to give up the demand for dowry.

    In fact to fix the situation of these unmarried women, we should give women more rights in the workplace so they can manage to support themselves without having to be dependent on a man.

    While i have no issue with polygamy as a lifestyle choice, if one so chooses, the answer to the plight of these unmarried women does not lie in robbing their sisters of yet another right. The answer lies in changing male perceptions and reducing male dominance in our society. Why should a woman not be able to support herself and her children and why should a divorced or widowed woman have to endure the stigma that prevents families from allowing their sons and brothers from marrying such women?

    @ Azzmat

    I believe you are right that many women get coerced into polygamous marriages simply because they feel they have no choice but to accept. And that of course does not meet the basic demand that no difference be made between a man's wives.

    However, there are some societies where gender roles are defined in a sucha way that women consider apolygamous union to be to their advantage. Though i could never understand why myself, nevertheless such societies and opinions do exist.

    My point is that just as enforced polygamy is not right, well neither is enforced monogamy. It's personal choice.

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Feb 2010 5:35 #

  21. kq
    Member

    adnanarham,

    You say that 17% of the women in this country are unmarried. Can you tell what percentage of the men in this country is unmarried?

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Feb 2010 7:51 #

  22. adnanarham
    Member

    I like the comments of Zia m regading dowry. He mensioned the right thing.
    I also do appreciate the thinking of hkbajwa, i also trying to add that it should not be enforced polygamy rather mutual understanding should exist.
    As far as 17% concern it is the proportion of those women in the society who are either overaged, widowed or divorced. not the genion unmarried girls of the society.
    As far as male is concerned i think male get marriade at any age but depends on their thinking. If a male don't want to marry then what can you do.
    Due to unemployement and inflation it looks male also did not try to get marry as they feel they can't able to bear a family which is worst in this society. So, they try to fulfull their desires from unlawful means.

    I appreciate the thoughtfull and justified thinking.

    Regards

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Feb 2010 12:03 #

  23. fanijee
    Member

    Allowing Polygamy....One of the best gifts of Islam...
    I have a fantasy to have four beautiful wives...:)

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Feb 2010 14:02 #

  24. LifeH2O
    Member

    In a pumflet by Balag-ul-Quran it was written that Quran does not 'allow' to have fours wives.
    It was a conditon for battles. Many men were killed in war leaving their family. In that verse they were told to care for their wives and childern. And if they think that they can not do justice with them (treat them with care) they can marry with them upto 4 maximum. So it is not allowed but ordered in such case.

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Aug 2010 16:55 #

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