Secular Members..... « PKPolitics Discuss

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Secular Members.....

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tooba
Member

Assalam-o-3Alaikum WarahmatUllahi Wabarakatuhu!
Dear secular members here!
I dont get it,but u guys(LalBichoo,tamaazkhan,achtung etc...)always especially the Red Scorpion,never miss a chance to criticise Islamic teachings,and instead try to present their kind of "Enlightened Moderated Islam"!!!
please stop doing this!
This islam has given you an identity,a true identity as a "Muslim"!!!
So plz i request you all,to refrain from doing so...
JazakAllah o Khair
Shukran jazeelan

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 18:55 #
yahya
Member

"Shukran jazeelan"

The word is 'buhut shukria'...this is the sort of stuff that gets to some of us..we are not arabia, we are Pakistani with Urdu as national language...not English, not Arabic, not Farsi..but Urdu.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:09 #
lota6177
Members

@seculars
My interpretation of Islam is better than your interpretation of Islam. I have won this contest of interpretation after watching alim online everyday for three months. I request lal bichoo, tamaaz khan and achtung to grow a beard like me and give up travel by automobile to use a camel. Keep it green and let’s call alim online and obtain a fatwa if it is ok for sisters like muslimah to use the net and posts in thread where there are males. Also please stop playing cricket which is a victorian sport and take up the wondeful sport of camel jumping.
Shukran

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:14 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@Muslimah

When has anyone criticised Islamic teaching on this forum?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:14 #
sweettruth
Member

@Muslimah
Keeping Religion and State matters separate is essential if you want to keep this country intact otherwise what cunning moulvis are doing to religion is enough for this country to doom sooner than expected
Religion has always been a big and thriving business worldwide not just muslim religion. We have seen so much fasad because of religion. Simply take example of Afghan fasad of 1980's where we hired mercenaries to use them in Afghanistan. Everything was done in the name of religion and today we are paying price for our past mistakes.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:18 #
tooba
Member

@yahyya
brother,just stick to the topic!
nobody has asked you whether i've to speak Arabic or not!!!!

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:19 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Muslimah: Don't let your good will fool you.

For Mr. yahya was proposing division based on ethnic lines.

He's opposed to unity of Muslims based on loyalty to ALLAH ALMIGHTY, loyalty to Islam's standards.

@lota6177: You may subscribe to secularism, but consensus within Muslim UMMAH tells that secularism is at odds with Islam. So my request to you would be to -> stuff! it.

There is nothing wrong with MULLAHs taking part in Politics,. That is the way of Muhammad (SAW). They are doing nothing more than following Sunnah of Muhammad (SAW).

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:21 #
achtung
Member

meray khial mein islam aik musalman ko jaisa deekhna chata hy, wo aik secularist sey mukhtalif nahee.

aik terrorist apney aap ko musalman keh sakta hy?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:34 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@achtung: Aap ka khayal, aap ka khayal hai na, is liye. Jab ke UMMAH ke sare Ulamaa ka consensus ye kehta hai ke Islam aur secularism aik doosre ki nafi karte hain.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:46 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

zara saray Ulema ka fatwa to dikhayiay!

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:50 #
lota6177
Members

@haris khan
copy
@lota6177: You may subscribe to secularism, but consensus within Muslim UMMAH tells that secularism is at odds with Islam. So my request to you would be to -> stuff! it.
copy
Haris khan tum naie apnay saar kaie ird gird green pata itnie zorr saie banda howa haie kaie blood circulation brain ko nahie ja rahie. Koie idea tumharaie damag kaie under nahie jaa sukta. Idea tumharay ird gird gool gool ghoom kar jumpain bhie maraie aur oncha oncha cheekhaie, main idea houn maie idea houn mujhey apnie damag kaie under janay dou tu tamhra green putta usay rouk daie ga. Tum aik anti polloution activist ho jo samjta haie kaie brain activity saie pollution pehlay giee is liye tum naie us ko completely rouk diya haie. I agree with you completely brother, You are right.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:54 #
achtung
Member

haris bhai. aap key ulema ki itni taleem hee nahee keh woh secularism ko samajh sakein.

jahan tak ulema key fatwoon ki baat hy tou kon nahee janta keh mazi mein unhoo ney kaise kaise ghalat fatwey diye. bulkeh yeh tak dekha gaya keh mali fawaid hasil kar key bhi unhoo ney fatwey diye.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 19:57 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: If you are a Muslim, you should have curiosity about the DEEN you accept. You are the one who needs to make the effort.

Btw, it will be beneficial excersize for you to explore the DEEN you accept, that is if you accept it, at all.

@lota6177: Can you please stop this beating about the bush and come straight to the point ?

@achtung: Zindagi guzarne ke tareeqo'n main un ki taleem DEENi maamlaat main AALA! hai.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:03 #
Anonymous

Its not about criticizing Quran, Hadeeth, Sunnah etc its all about criticizing the way it is thought in Pakistan and thats what many dont agree with so first try to understand the criticism then come up on saying that we should stop or not....

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:05 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@yahya87: As I'v already mentioned over and over again, people of Pakistan have rejected secularism. It doesn't matter how much hugh and cry you make.

Its a fact of life. Accept it.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:06 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Thats right Haris,

They rejected Sir Syed, Iqbal, Jinnah, Bhutto!

I forgot that they backed the non-secular JI and Pakistan was NOT created as per the wishes of Maudoodi and JI.

That the reality right?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:15 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I'v requested you to meet up with those who struggled to create Pakistan.

They will clear your misconceptions.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:19 #
SufiSoul
Member

Actually secular members over here wish to stuck the Islamists one between modrenism,westrenism,education,hightech ideologies and things like that.....

BUT when they get answers like,

We defeated USSR without any hightech weapons and eveloped education but just putting trust upon ALLAH and USSR was torn into pieces...

Americans are playing their final innings in Afghanistan and by putting trust upon ALLAH they are being defeated and daily jobless frustrated americans just pulled their guns and sprayed many americans around him...

Such type of arguments just made the secular/athiest irritating and confused and thier ideology JHAAG ban ker baith jathi hy....

They cannot even think for a second abt a victory without,dazzy cutters,apachi,and hightech weapons cuz they were brought up with the same ideology and this ideology becomes part of their IMAAN and psychy..
So its really shocking for them to change their minds and think like we think that we need just put our trust upon ALLAH bfore going to Battle field...
So they get stuck between two ideologies and due to absence of any strong YAQEEN mental destruction is their final destination..

I would also like and advise members to give some {room} to our athiests/secular members,cuz they need enough time to accommodate our IDEOLOGY specially the ideology of,,

MOMIN HY THO BE-TAIGH BHI LARTHA HY SIPAHI....

Thanx

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:22 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

Ther are many buzurgs in my family who lived through the time.

Historical facts are there for all to see.

Is the JI now claiming that Muslims did not support Sir Syed, Iqbal, Jinnah, Bhutto?
Or that JI was FOR the creation of Pakistan?

Just because you cailm to represent Islam does allow you to re-write history to suit your political needs!

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:24 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: Historical facts talk of Islami Nizam.

Yes, I agree, they are for all to see.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:37 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@SufiSoul: I accept your request. How much room should I allow them ?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:39 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Did you ever stop and think that peoples idea of Islami Nizam is different than yours?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:39 #
Anonymous

@hariskhan

First of all this is 2010 not 1980 where "Fifth Khalifa of Islam, Mard-e-Momin, Mard-e-Haq" Zia UL Haq is not a president of Pakistan and second today's Ullemas have also rejected Talibans and you know what Taliban means dont you???

Now you were saying that facts are facts so do you know what "facts" actually means????

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:47 #
javedsheikh
Members

Dear Muslimah,
I respect your feelings and sincerity, but, sorry to differ with your Judgment.
Not a Single member at the Forum is against Islam and particularity, a secular thinker is more respectful for all the Faiths and Religions in a State.
I guess you overlooked the textbook meaning of Secular.
Secularism means all of the Religions in a state should be free to flourish and flow.
State should not impose a particular Faith upon its citizens.
This topic has been discussed and killed at the Forum so many times.
An Opinion Forum should be free to all to express and share their experiences without an intention to hijack for only one school of thought.
At this Forum there are respectable scholars who support Terrorism and justify the actions of Talibans.
They have every right to keep their position.

But this is not fair to stain, ridicule, blame and label those members as Anti-Islam who oppose terrorism in the name of religion.
If criticism of a narrow minded emotional fanatic is Anti-Islam, then Allama Iqbal should be at the top of the line.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:52 #
semirza
Moderator

SufiSoul

Actually secular members over here wish to stuck the Islamists one between modrenism,westrenism,education,hightech ideologies and things like that.....

A good point for a debate...hats off SufiSoul.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 20:57 #
javedsheikh
Members

Dear SoufSoul,

Quote:
"Actually secular members over here wish to stuck the Islamists one between modrenism,westrenism,education,hightech ideologies and things like that....."

If this is a crime then it was committed by Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Maulana Shibli Noamani, Allam Iqbal and Mohammad Ali Jinnah and thousand more.
Allam Iqbal in 1924 suggested that Muslim Ummah needs Tajdeed (Modernism) and not Taqleed (Traditional way of life)

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 21:04 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@semirza
"A good point for a debate...hats off SufiSoul."

Why am I not surprised?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 21:05 #
Anonymous

Secularist look at different angles of common believe of religious people have like the example of Sufisoul about defeating Russian without any weapons but here we also consider another dimension of internal conditions of Russia due to which they got defeated and then collapsed while for most non secular that dimension is unacceptable and this creates a difference it also apply on current USA situation in Afghanistan because USA is also going through same crisis now a days but for non secular this would be simple victory of Mujaheddin while for secular their internal conditions, their interest and many other dimensions are also involves not just simple resistance with AK47s...

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 21:12 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Secularists tend to claim again and again, that they respect Islam, they respect Muslims. Yet the activities secularists engage in suggests the opposite!.

With each passing day, week, month, year, we are finding more and more evidence that the countries/nation states/empires of today who claim to be secular, do not respect Islam, do not respect Muslims. Some of them are not even secular, they only claim to be secular.

In-fact they don't adhere to any! code of conduct, any! law. The only law they adhere to is that which gives them! more! and more! power, more and more 'zan, zar, zameen' (in urdu, arabic).

Today, the evidence for this is piling up.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 21:38 #
semirza
Moderator

Better be surprised when a debate in full heat is going on!

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 21:58 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@yahya87: You think in such small terms. You'r not ready to acknowledge facts, even after you see evidence.

Why should one waste his time on you, when you are not ready to be reasonable ?

(2) O .. and about Ulamaa rejecting 'Taliban', Ulamaa haven't done that. Read or listen to what Dr. Israr said.

Most Ulamaa are not aware of what is going on in northern areas. Why ? Because;

(a) facts are not known
(b) what is happening in reality is not being told
(c) what we know is that which Army's media wing (ISPR) is telling us
(d) there hasn't been an independent judicial inquiry into the matter
(e) independent mass media coverage is not allowed for affected areas

Its easy to be fooled into making wrong statements when you don't have clear information about what is going on in reality.

This is exactly why Ulamaa lost their worth in the past. They would not know what was actually going on in reality. They would issue decree based on wrong information. Since deceit was envolved, none of what was said and done was legitimate.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 22:10 #
achtung
Member

Most Ulamaa are not aware of what is going on in northern areas. Why ? Because;

(a) facts are not known
(b) what is happening in reality is not being told
(c) what we know is that which Army's media wing (ISPR) is telling us
(d) there hasn't been an independent judicial inquiry into the matter
(e) independent mass media coverage is not allowed for affected areas

haris bhai. tou phir aap ko kon sahih khabrain deyta hy?

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 22:20 #
achtung
Member

haris bhai. iss waqt amomi tor per 2 qisam kay musalman hein.
aik woh jo islam kay mafhoom 'salamti' kay alambardar hein jinko aap secular kehtay ho.
doosray woh jo jango jadal aur qatalo gharat mei yaqeen rakhtay hei jinko ham terrorists kehtay hein.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 22:31 #
SufiSoul
Member

yahya,

You raised a valid point here abt secular dimention and angle of looking into this matter..
It requires to look in depth here..
Actually this world is operating over certain rules and regulations by nature which is already established to run the life over here..
Comming to ur point now just think abt it what the poet trying to say here,

KHUDA JAB HUSN DAITHA HY NAZAKAT A HI JATHI HY...

by explaining this i would say that for collapse of a nation their are some factors neccessary,for example a reasonable time is needed some stupidities are needed difference of opinions at intolerable level is needed and so on,
It would never happen like next morning suddenly a nation would collapse cuz they attacked innocent people.It would be against the nature law..
Nature,according to the effect over different and widspread stake holders of an entity/nation nature decided to at what speed and how a particular nation to be collapsed..The velocity is always decided by the nature..not by any Mujahid..This is exactly the teachings of ISLAM that do what ever you want to do in the way of ALLAH but leave the result over ALLAH...
Actually important is the initial decision of nature abt particular nation to destroy when the document is signed by the nature than nature decides the rest of the things adding to the collapse of the nation..
The people actually discussing the same events initiated by the nature,as causes of the collapse of that particular nation....

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 23:19 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Everything in life is linked to other aspects of our life.

DEEN provides us insight into all aspects of our life.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 23:22 #
javedsheikh
Members

Mr. Achtung has prompted me to reach the bottom line of the debate.
The difference of vision depends on the color of glasses.

One feels satisfied to appreciate Mohammad Ali Jinnah's political vision and way of life where the other attempts to twist and deface the originality of that vision to a remote direction what is tinted with impracticable realities.

One group is Pro-life who believes in 'live and let live' and is proud to be called as secular, liberal and moderate.
It is academic dishonesty to label every liberal and secular as an agent of the Western Culture.
Other group is Pro-Death, which promotes and supports killings based upon communal hatred.
They feel uncomfortable to criticize the existing wave of Terrorism in Pakistan and hold a soft corner for suicide bombers.

Both groups might be honest and sincere at their intentions but one of those, is wrong at the choice of carriers and directions.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 23:28 #
SufiSoul
Member

javaidsheikh sb,

Certainly it is not a crime but their are reasons behind the muslim's thinkings developments.e.g
When muslims looking back to their history abt how they started with ISLAM and how they get overcome on famous empires they find that,
This was just a simple {belief} which caused them to overcome wel established rulers and nations.This was never things like advanced technology/education so why they should be impressed by these new requirements.
Now looking into the ISLAM itself,that it forbids you completly to rely/depend upon hightech but teach you again and again that ALLAH is enough to clear the ways for your success.
Here it should not be taken as that education/hightech and things like that are HARAM in ISLAM but it is second priority to think abt and try for it as you can but dont rely as the non-muslims do..
If you think that muslims should come out of this situation of primary belief than it is equal to try to change the belief programme of the muslim..
This mentality definitly put some {negative,according to secularists} effects over muslim approach that they dont mind to chase and develop such skills..But on the other side it is exactly according to their belief and faith to put trust only UPON ALLAH first with minimum oof possible hightech..
By comparing now their is a huge gap between the two ends(muslims and non-muslims beliefs)..
How to bridge this gap???The only way to bridge this GAP is the need for it.If at any time muslims think that they need hightech ,like pakistan developed their nukes,they will try to get it for their survival..
But if they are sure that can defeat the enemy by resources and by {JORE THORE} like against russia,they will never go for it to choose a hard life,full of struggle...
Let me end this post by saying,that muslims have some secrets/sayings by the almighty which discloses the working of this world/life on the earth..And they are better able to predict a situation abt their enemy in advance,no matter how strong the enemy is..And result is always according to these predictions so no need for them to worry at all,cuz their is no sudden survival threat...

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Apr 2010 23:43 #
zia m
Member

Muslimah
Human without ideas is like a garden without flowers.
We just need to be tolerant to different points of views.The best ideas eventually are accepted by civilized societies.
Live and let live.
Thanks

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 0:23 #
javedsheikh
Members

An unbiased academic analysis would help to understand what is a better carrier to achieve progress without damaging the very spirit of a Faith.
A Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu or an Atheist could be blessed with a biological instinct to fix and adjust the preferences about life, proportionate to his/her chemistry.

A well balanced blend of ideologies have been proved more successful and effective to solve social and emotional conflicts.
I would prefer Tajdeed over Taqleed for my way of life.
This attitude doesn't make me feel as Anti-Religion.
In fact, this is a struggle to reface what has been defaced.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 0:48 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

@Muslimah

"""especially the Red Scorpion,never miss a chance to criticise Islamic teachings,and instead try to present their kind of "Enlightened Moderated Islam"!!!
please stop doing this!
This islam has given you an identity,a true identity as a "Muslim"!!!
So plz i request you all,to refrain from doing so..."""

>>>

I regret to inform you Islam used to be my identity but not any more !
I'm now just a human being and I'm by birth Pakistani ( not a proud one as I could have born in India or Israel ) and I believe in humanity i.e. for me all human beings are equal irrespective of their caste, race, religion or creed !

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 6:05 #
sasherwani
Members

@ LB,

"I'm now just a human being and I'm by birth Pakistani ( not a proud one as I could have born in India or Israel ) and I believe in humanity i.e. for me all human beings are equal irrespective of their caste, race, religion or creed !"

Your statement is contradictory ;)

First you complain about being a Pakistani and then you claim you consider all human being being equal!

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 7:09 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

sasherwani,

No sir ! I was not complaining :)))
I was just mentioning a fact, aren't we Pakistani by virtue of our birth ? :) (that's why I'm not a 'proud Pakistani' as I could have born in India or Israel ) :)))

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 7:18 #
wantinsaf
Member

What's wrong with seculars is they want us to leave religion on Mullas.Religion is not Mulla's property,it belongs to all of its followers.This secualr approach would at the end helps Mullas use or misuse religion for vested interests.
We all are Muslims and it's our duty to learn religion,get rid of confusion and practice it so that we can achieve success in both the worlds.
The reason behind seculars' failure to understand religion is they don't have interest in it.They consider relgion as something secandory like Ice Cream.
And the other thing wrong with them is they are not original and unfortunately they don't believe in being it.Originality to us comes from our religion and culture.And by replacing it with westernization is harmful and can only lead us look inferior and followers rather than trend setters.We want to give something to this world as we would soon become trend setter after getting rid of issues we have.
There is lot wrong with seculars but above is enough for respected secular members on this forum.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 12:03 #
haider3
member

I liked your sentence: "They consider religion as something secondary like Ice Cream". Expressed with a lot of punch. Thanks.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 12:17 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsaf,

"""What's wrong with seculars is they want us to leave religion on Mullas."""

>>>

I don't think so !
Secularists just want a non-religious state i.e. a state which gives equal rights to all of its citizens without discrimination on the basis of caste, colour or creed !
Moreover, secularists think that religion should be a personal matter and no one has a right to impose his/her religious veiws on others !

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 12:21 #
sasherwani
Members

I actually think there are 'five' kinds of mindsets:

Liberal Extremist
Liberal
Moderate
Conservative
Conservative Extremist

Liberal, Moderate and Conservatives are 'mostly' peaceful and mind their our businesses.

The war is between the 'two' opposite extremes who are always declaring each other 'terrorists' or 'kaafirs'.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 12:24 #
Faarigh Jazbati
member

dear sasherwani

you have missed the two categories

Liberal Fascist
Religious Fanatics

:)

FJ

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 13:13 #
haider3
member

Tolerance is the key word here, I imagine, and Islam, the real thing, not everything else that passes for religion, has enough of it to sell to the rest of the world.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 13:50 #
rhyme
Members

personally i have no problem with ppl from any faith even atheism,expressing their view point on matters under discussion but the problem starts when secularist or atheist tries to impose his/her views on others by repeatedly stessing and using same ideological criticism giving an impression that all other ideologies followed by religious ppl nd conservatives are completely wrong...i think this type of thinking and practise depicts the extremist approach of these secularists..

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 14:01 #
SufiSoul
Member

Let's look at the pic the most developed part of the world have,
1.Less tolerant at individual and national level
2.Greed at peak
3.No feeling but material based ecisions
4.Collapse of family/relatives system
5.High ratio of divorces
6.High ratio of mental diseases due to baseless thinkings,actually
7.Home of all the new type of viruses and diseases
8.Totally upside down concept of Honour/self respect etc
9.Involved in worst criminal activities at individual(looting during natural disasters,katrina) and national level against other nations recently and in past..
10.The sole purpose of inventions is to get over other's resources either by hook or by crook..
11.Spread of Individualism rather than community among the people,at peak.
12.Their is no religion at all in practical life..

When the outcome of best education is the same as described above,than why the others should accept such a change in their lives through hightech and education..
The religious base was neccessary to deviate the developed human race to going out in such a direction but that base was removed and now the individual is at the desposal of an unknown power guiding him to go on and on where their is no mark to achieve just frustration and suicidals..

This was described above something not in past but it is going on right now at the developed side of the earth.So how one can convince the others to adopt the same way to success and happiness,this is not possible..
No one should eny the by-products of such a development e.g luxuriuos life,comfort,medical achievements etc BUT if carefully compared the damage to the faith,INdividualism,nationalism and globalised is far more than the by-products out of this development...
How should one be convinced to get some of by-products at the cost of all..
Muslims would just take out of this bunch,which they needed and would leave the other which they dont.And i think this is the starategy on the muslims part of the world...

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Apr 2010 14:16 #