Shaheed e Watan.. « PKPolitics Discuss

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Shaheed e Watan..

(37 posts)

KHAN_Sahib
Member

This news may be not important by the news standards of media but we should not forget the true PAKISTANIS who sacrifices their lives for their country. By Slogging ARMY and ISI, we forget that not all of the Army or ISI are bad. May be 60% of them are not a role model (but then so is our nation) but then why do we forget these Jawaans who do sincerely work dayn night to secure the borders. We may have been cursed by aazab e ilahi by ZIA, MUSSHARAF AND KIYAANI Baghairats but we do have a big number of Jawans who make us all proud of them.

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/feb2010-daily/09-02-2010/updates/2-9-2010_20580_1.gif

May ALLAH rest their soul and give Sabber to their families.

Shaheed ke Jo moat hay,
Woh Qaum kee hayyat hay.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Feb 2010 22:08 #
toamin
member

These brave people must be appreciated and their corrupt bosses like zia mushy kilani must be condemned.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 2:27 #
aristotle
Member

Khan Sahib

Very good post

I always raise this point that when we curse our army as whole due to their big bosses’ illegal, unconstitutional and unethical actions then we are making a mistake. No institution or organization has all good or all bad, all angel or all devils. There is always a mixture of good and bad, this is nature’s rule and we cannot decline it.

Yes, Ayub, Yahyah, Zia, Musharaff and more (who are ambitious and in waiting list to take over) should be condemned and punished for their all wrongdoings but on the other hand, we must acknowledge, recognize, appreciate and praise our Jawans who are laying their lives for us, for our country, for our motherland.

Why we do please our enemies by cursing our army as whole?

We must discriminate good as good and bad as bad. we should curse greedy, hungry of power, unfair players, disloyal personalities in army and wherever they are but not institutions.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 8:29 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@KHAN_Sahib: (1) Where do you think the;

(a) $70 million dollars that US was giving Pak Army, before
(b) $1+ trillion dollar of military fund that is being given to Pak Army under CSF (Coalition Support fund), which is separate! from Kerry Lugar Act/Bill

is going ?

(2) Who is that money being spent;

(a) on ?
(b) against ?

This Army, this service, is taking money from foreign power, which means its essentially become a 'Army for hire' for foreign powers, in order to kill! its own innocent people in cold blood.

(3) Who do you think is building military bases for USA, in Pakistan ?

(a) Tarbela
(b) Gharo, Sindh
(c) Islamabad (large! counselate)
(d) Peshawar (large! counselate)

I'm not aware if more of these have been given to USA, but who knows ? I have lost trust in Pak Army, its loyalty, its reputation, its credibility. A thorough state level investigation needs to take place into this situation.

(4) Who do you think is allowing USA to conduct drone strikes ? Who do you think has given USA air bases for the last 10 years ?

Especially, if we think Pak Army is running this country right now.

How do you think ALL of Pak Army is not to blame ?

How do you maneuver around this reality, with your claim that ALL of Pak Army is not to blame ?

There should have been a mutiny within Pak Army in order to restore Pak Army's reputation, its credibility. Nothing like that has happened in the last 12 years.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 8:51 #
change_is_close
Member

@aristotle
couldn't agree more!

may Allah accept their sacrifices, forgive their sins, and grant them the highest levels in jannah.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 9:01 #
aristotle
Member

haris,

Which facts u r mentioning here, this is all abt big bosses’s decisions and we r talking abt Jawan (soldiers on borders) who are fighting and lying their lives for Pakistan. we must have acknowledged their sacrifices regardless whatever their Bosses are doing. We must raise our voice against their wrongdoings but not insult an institution as whole.

As far as Billion or trillion of Rs fund is concerned, do u remember, when Afghan Jehad was going on, army was receiving funds in same manner and Jamat-e-Islami was the partner and big supporter of Pakistan’ army at that time and had no problem with the role of Pak Army.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 9:24 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@aristotle: (1) Pak Army is not an institution. Its a 'state' level 'service'.

(2) You should watch the interview of Brzezinski I posted a few weeks ago. He said Muslims would have won that war without US's support

(3) JI never got any money from that. ALL of that money went to Zia or the Pakistani Govt. of the time. It was spent by the same people

However, if there are credible cases against JI people about taking money, they should be filed in the court of law ASAP, by Govt. of Pakistan or any credible citizen. I will support that without any hesitation.

(4) At that time Muslims were fighting a foreign power's aggression. At this time, we are fighting our own people, who have taken up arms because of;

(a) injustice by Pakistani state for the last 40+ years, if not since its creation. That is judicial, financial, social as well as political injustice
(b) war on terror
(c) drone strikes
(d) military operations by Pakistani Army on behest of USA, which is funded by money from USA

Because of which Pakistan, its people themselves have suffered billions! of Rupees worth of losses, people have lost their homes, their livelihoods, their crops, their peace of mind, their tranquility. People who were or still are IDPs have lost their loves ones even when they committed no crimes.

UN is asking the world for $500+ million to cater to Pakistan's IDPs. That means the IDPs issue is still at large;

DAWN News: UN appeal of $537m for areas hit by militancy

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 10:13 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@KHAN_Sahib: I am sympathetic of Jawaan of Pak Army. However, I must say I have lost trust on Pak Army.

My trust has not been shaken. I have lost! ALL trust in Pak Army.

I have recently encountered evidence of so much injustice by Pak Army that I can't handle it.

Those Jawaans' have let their Generals do so much injustice with Pakistan over past decades, that I can't even begin to put in words. What scares me more, is that its STILL continuing and threatening to continue the same way into the future.

The fact that OURs as well as the future of future generations of Muslims of Pakistan is going to get affected by them scares! me.

After all that, when we talk about our collective state, the Muslim UMMAH depends on the prosperity of Pakistanis'. When I think of that, the prospect is far more scary.

It is UNACCEPTABLE.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 10:30 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

Hariskhan,

You need to read my post again and try to understand the motive of this post. You can not lose trust on our army more then me as I am one of the Directly Affectie of their operations against the Pushtuns. It was our Army/ISI who pushed the Pushtuns of the Pukhtoonkwa to do JIHAD in the name of ISLAM and the way, we pushtuns are..... We lose the sense of "THinking" when we hear ALLAH o AKBAR and JIHAD! The same ARMY then dumped us and called us TERRORISTS AND TALIBAAN and started an assault over the whole Provinces. They have killed 4 times more common civilians then they actually killed or captured Talibaan. They Have demolished thousands of houses and left these IDP's on their own. The same IDP'd when went to Punjab and Sindh, then our Punjabi, Sindhi and Muhajir "Brothers" staged a protest against them and labelled then as Talibaan by MQM.
We Pushtuns have suffered in this country, the most and I firmly believe that our rights have never been given to us since the independence of Pakistan. We have been divided into 2 with the durand line which no Pushtun recognize and accept BUT even then majority of Pushtuns don't see Punjabis, sindhis or Muhajirs as their enemies and are living (trying to live in Karachi if MQM can kindly stop its atrocities against them) with them. So If we can live with all of you (and not hate you for what your so called leaders like Nawaz, Altaf aur Qadir Magsi are doing...) then why not Army?

I only defend an Army Jawan who is fighting for this country without any expectation of ARMY LTD %age share the way our Corrupt ARMY Generals are currently indulged into but think of those thousands of Jawans who sacrifice their lives in the name of ISLAM and PAKISTAN just like the Pushtuns did against Russia.

Stop criticizing Army for the sake of it and If you consider yourself a Patriotic Pakistani then why don't you bring a case against Altaf Hussain, Nawaz Shareef, Qazi Hussain who all have either done corruption, received money from ISI, killed people or have supported these corrupt Army Generals over Decades!

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:17 #
Beenai
Moderator

we should get rid off the habit of generalization ...
like all the army men are corrupt .
all the Pakistanis are dishonest ....etc.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:25 #
aristotle
Member

Beenai
i second u

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:28 #
change_is_close
Member

@KHAN_Sahib
i totally agree with your post... the problem with most of our politicians is that they criticize the army, but they're scared crap of taking kiyani's name! you would find almost every political party criticizing the army, but no one names those responsible within the army. it is the army leadership and their subservience to the west that should be exposed to the general public.

@Beenai
i've been crying over the same, for years (outside this forum)

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:46 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@KHAN_Sahib: @Beenai: (sarcasm) yea .. Right! (/sarcasm)

You guys disappoint me.

I think you are capable of much better than this.

I accept your goodness or goodwill. However I want to put it aside for now. There are more critical concerns at stake here.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:49 #
semirza
Moderator

I second Khan Sahib, Beenai, aristotle and Change is close.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:51 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

I believe that sarcasm is not the lowest form of wit but stupidity is!

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:52 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@KHAN_Sahib: I understand what you are saying. You are proposing unity. You are proposing that we ignore that which happened, for the sake of unity. That is not enough, in my opinion. We need to go further to the next achievable! level.

Let's cut the crap, come down to earth and discuss this.

Army is a collection of;

(a) people
(b) resources (weapons, money, etc etc)
(c) a mission to safeguard Pakistan's borders

is it not ?

or

does it have a more .. scientific/complex 'make', 'objective' ?

Let me add that in the Muslim UMMAH, Army was never an 'institution'. As far as my knowledge goes, Army was ALWAYS a 'Razaakar' (in urdu) force.

The west turned 'Army' into a 'military-industrial-complex'.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 12:53 #
change_is_close
Member

@haris
i disagree! it was Hazrat Umar (RA) who regularized the army, and the khilafah had a regular army since. this is regarded as one of his (RA) greatest reforms. (we even studied that in school, dude)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar

the ottoman khilafah had a huge, powerful army:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

the muslims rulers of our golden age were not stupid - they utilized the resources that they had and that's why they ruled the world. i'm astonished to read this from someone like you.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 13:36 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@change_is_close: Are you refuting one point of my discussion here, or ALL of the premiss on which I'm talking ?

I'm talking about justice in wider terms here. I'm talking about being rational. I'm talking about having a thought process, rather than just be dumb robots, etc etc.

I'm negating the;

(a) 'badshah' type lifestyle KHAN_Sahib is promoting through his talk
(b) which says, all is well
(c) 'koee masla naee' (in urdu), 'chand bande hi maar diye hain na, 'mera bande bhi beech main mara gaya tha aur main ye keh raha hoon', 'life goes on'
(d) 'let everything be as it is'

I'm saying this 'badshah' type mindset of our people is killing us. We have turned from a 'nation' into a 'herd of fools' because of this type of mindset(s).

However, if ALL of you still want things to remain as they are. Well, then I'll let it be.

Who am I to talk in this, right ? After-all I'm not affected by this. Mera to koee nahi mara tha (in urdu).

Our people have not been able to make progress in the last 60+ years. Has anyone thought of the reasons behind it ?

(1) When are you people going to become serious towards this ?
(2) Do you think LIFE is a joke ? or
(3) everyone else's life other than yours is a joke ?

(4) Do you think politics is a joke ?
(5) Do you people think, the discussion that goes on here is a joke ? Just to pass the time ?

Is this discussion forum, all that goes on here everyday, do you think its nonsense ? Just an excersize to have fun or earn money ?

I guess I'v been wrong to think Pakistanis' wanted to struggle for betterment. I'm disappointed people. I'm very disappointed.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 14:58 #
change_is_close
Member

@haris
"Let me add that in the Muslim UMMAH, Army was never an 'institution'. As far as my knowledge goes, Army was ALWAYS a 'Razaakar' (in urdu) force.

The west turned 'Army' into a 'military-industrial-complex'."

i disagreed with this point - sorry, i realize i should've been more specific. do you still stand by this point of yours?

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 15:31 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

Army was Ummah itself. When need arose all came together to fight.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 15:34 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@change_is_close: I will accept that which comes to me from ALLAH ALMIGHTY, Muhammad (SAW) or his (SAW) companions.

I will not stick to wrong information.

I will modify my knowledge according to that which comes to me from ALLAH ALMIGHTY, Muhammad (SAW) or his (SAW) companions.

If my knowledge has wrongs or something missing, I will correct it. I will update my knowledge.

I! am a Muslim!. I will accept my mistakes.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 16:40 #
barackosama
Member

Completely bull!

It was the Jawans raping 14 year old Bengali Muslim girls and impregnating them even though after repeated good conduct memos of Maj Gen. Rao Farman Ali and Lt. Gen. Aamir Abdullah Khan Niazi, Commander Eastern Command. Many of our Jawans have **** children in Bangladesh, I wonder if their legit children here know about their dad's misadventure.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 17:10 #
barackosama
Member

My boss narrated from a brigadier how they raped a woman when they heard noise from a near by bush. The soldier got hold of the woman and used her for their need. When after getting done, she began to leave toward the bushes, they realized she could be an informant, so they open burst on her back. Three soldiers, one woman, after raping her killed her from behind. What was interested that the brigadier narrated the story 30 years later in a very pleasant mode with no remorse even when he was old. That does not mean all brigs. of the army are same. But the army does not charge their culprits.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 17:24 #
Migel9
Member

Pak army JAWANS who the fighting are men of honor and integrity,may ALLAH grant them junnah..

The cancer is above as in WINE drinking plot buying,12 grade failed unedcated GENERALS have the mind set of a
SLAVE..

You remove the slave mentality from these inbreds and bring in a new generation of loyal young Pakistanis in droves would a good start.

Colonialist pigs have left Muslim lands, yet the stench remains as in brown slaves of the former dead empire.

What scares the west in general is UNITY AND JUSTICE IN MUSLIM LANDS..Why would our people leave for west?Thus the dalall uneducated coward puppet leadeship is installed.

wake up my brave PAKISTANI..

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 18:48 #
change_is_close
Member

@haris
thanks, bro! that's what i expect from you.

@barackosama
"That does not mean all brigs. of the army are same. But the army does not charge their culprits."
that's exactly the point... all brigs. are not the same, but i'm unable to recall a mr. clean that made it to the top of the army - that's where the problem is! good brigadiers hardly make it to generalship. musharraf HAD to find kiyani to be made the chief, you know!

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 18:49 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

15 jawans were killed by taliban in south waziristan the other day. A cobra helicopter was blown out of the sky in tirah, and 2 pilots missing. Rescue party was also attacked and senior officer killed, 2 others injured.

More such to come in ongoing infighting overseen by pakistani establishment for the purpose of occupying pukthun quam.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 19:00 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

@Haris

"I'm negating the
(a) 'badshah' type lifestyle KHAN_Sahib is promoting through his talk
(b) which says, all is well
(c) 'koee masla naee' (in urdu), 'chand bande hi maar diye hain na, 'mera bande bhi beech main mara gaya tha aur main ye keh raha hoon', 'life goes on'
(d) 'let everything be as it is'"

Can you tell me where abouts I was promoting Badshah type lifestyle? In the hatred of a religious janooni, you can't even differentiate between Humanity and Blind extremism. You certainly need help Haris, and I urge to get it soon. This fancy talk of yours is not good enough and just like u said, Why don't u cut the crap and stop judging others.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 19:46 #
barackosama
Member

This is how army interrogates old Pahstuns:

This was the story in East Pakistan, 1992 operation of Karachi, Lt. Gen Rahim Uddin's adventure in Balochistan and now NWFP/FATA.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 19:52 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

barakosama...
I am not supporting army Generals or Army per sae as I am the biggest Opponent of army operation in Pukhtoonkhwa and in Baluchistan. The same army wont operate in Punjab or Sindh specially in karachi against the clean shaved Talibaan aka MQM. I want to hang every Army General who is involved in killing of these innocent country men of mine and who supports the terrorist and Bhattakhoar of this nation BUT......... You can not deny that a common Jawwan of army has nothing to do with these operations. If tomorrow, India attacks Pakistan, you guys will be ahead of everyone to shout PAK ARMY Zindabad. How many of us were proud when we kicked India's a s s in Kargil????? It was later our Generals who decided to back down from that post! I say don't do stupid acts but If u took that post then why backing up???

I am very bitter about how Pak army has become a one province army but then its us to blame cuz except Punjab and to some extent, Pukhtoonkhwa has some representation in army but rest of Pakistan is not interested in joining army but all we can do is to criticize everyone in army.

As regards to JI Supporters criticizing army, they forgot that they were the biggest supporters of army general ZIA who used the name of ISLAM to exploit the innocent people of Pukhtoonkwa!... ALLAH uss ko aur uss kay supporters ko poochey!

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:01 #
barackosama
Member

Well, you see the Jawans kicking the old Pashtuns are probably Pashtuns themselves who can speak the local dialect, they are only acting on the orders of the Major who is clearly not Pashtun. But the question for Jawan to wrestle within himself is a moral one, whether he wants to be part of the unjusts.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:06 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

Yes!
Thats why Talibaan have so much support in Pukhtoonkwa and I can foresee that they will take over Pakistan in 10 years max (The way we are isolating Pushtuns and Baluchs)

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:14 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

religious janooni, hate .. (sarcasm) Nice labels (/sarcasm).

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:20 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

If this is what you think then be happy!
Killing of any innocent muslim and even a non muslim is harram!
regardless if it's MQM, ANP, ARMY, Jamat e Islami or Talibaan.... You can not justify injustice or murder.
You can also not justify Jaamat e ISlami stance when it sits in Army General's Lap and then now criticize the same army! I Call this hypocrisy.
Yes, Education is one form of JIHAD and If you think that JS is promoting anything against ISLAM then my friend, it's you who has the problem not him!

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:29 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

JI's people have negated that which you say. There is no hypocrisy here.

I believe, at the time when common man will trust court of LAW to impart justice for his disputes, when JI's people will be made to stand in court, your suspicions will be proven wrong by the court.

Education is not the topic on this thread. Please remain focused on the topic at hand, under their relevant threads.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:43 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

why are u sure that JI wil never be wrong?

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:44 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Because, I have spent time among them. I know how they conduct themselves.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:45 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

In Army, the most basic of things that it ALWAYS has to be vigilant about, is the factor called 'loyalty'.

You may be looking on the bright side. You may have forgotten this. You may take this lightly. I do/will not!.

There isn't much that people serving in an Army do EVERY DAY of their life other than guard this 'loyalty'.

If our Army or the personnel who serve in it, can't even ensure it remains 'loyal' to this state/nation/UMMAH, its people, then its not worth having this Army or the people that serve in it to be at their jobs, is it ?

We'd need to take drastic measures in order to ensure this 'loyalty' is restored. We need those people to serve in Army who can guard this 'loyalty' at all! costs. It is UNACCEPTABLE that our Army be compromised regardless of any circumstance or situation or etc etc.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Feb 2010 20:54 #