PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues
Shaheed Mohtarma awarded Human Rights Award
(61 posts)-
Fahim23
MemberPosted 3 years ago on 11 Dec 2008 18:55 # -
meanwhile back home, Rs. 2 Million out of the IMF Loans the country is surviving on is spent on newspaper ads "advertising this achievement/placing personal political ads"
Shahid Mohtarma continues to take from people even after deathhttp://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2008/12/11/how-they-waste-public-money
http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/dawn-nation-pride.jpgPosted 3 years ago on 11 Dec 2008 22:36 # -
Fahim23
MemberThat's very unfortunate.
Posted 3 years ago on 11 Dec 2008 23:08 # -
Asif
Blockedits one more in the countless unfortunate list for common man of Pakistan, so now it does not even appear to be unfortunate....
in sheedon ney hamari band baja k rakh di hai, zia sheed, bhutto sheed with their lawaris warsin & latest sheed bb.
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 1:12 # -
Asif
Blockedunfortunate is used for a thing which happens as a result of some unintentional act.
And these things are done intentionally from the TAX-payers money(coz loan is not paid from the pockets of these ruling ELITE of Gernails & their pithus).
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 3:28 # -
I would like some tv shows to call that muchar minister who spent this money to suck up to PPP leadership. He needs to be asked what was the need of spending this money? what purpose did it serve? who gave him the authority to throw away public money on personal political ads like that? he is the same ignoramus who supported killing rape victims in balochistan I think. this guy is of the same standard as wasi zafar, its a shame we have such people on high govt. posts. should be immidiately thrown out of office, he represents everything that is wrong with pakistan
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 4:28 # -
thats how US stooges got awarded .
she been working not for human rights but for US rights in Pakistan.
so she has to be given that award .
she deserves that .Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 6:54 # -
aristotle
Membershaheed Muhtarma did a great job for Human Rights... asif zardari k sare cases maaf kara lena kia koi kam karnama hay human rights k medan me? aakhir wo bhi tu eik insaan hay... phir bilawal ,bakhtawar and asifa k ley property and paisa jama karna ... chote chote batcho kay mustaqbil k ley... wo bhi tu insaan hey na? phir in-laws k haqooq k ley bhi kafi kaam kia muhtarma ne... why u ppl dont recognise it???????????????
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 11:40 # -
If majority of Pakistanis feels like what has been presented at the above postings by the most learned and respectable scholars of Pakistan, then one must admit that Pakistani Nation as a whole has gone mad, angry, thankless, cruel, callous, frustrated, derailed, lost, confused, negative and blind due to lack of judgment and knowledge of History.
One can expect the same trend of expression from these respectable scholars against Mr. Iftikhar Chaudry, Dr. A. Q Khan, or Talat Hussein very soon.
A nation could not produce a single unanimously respectable leader within 62 years with the exception of the Qauid-I-Azam. (Hard to understand why he has been spared of criticism so far?)
These are the symptoms of a nation, unfit to survive.
I am confident that 51% of the population doesn’t feel like that.
"Great Minds discuss IDEAS.
Average Minds Discuss Events.
Small Minds Discuss People."Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 12:11 # -
@Dear Shiekh Sahib,
if BB was at Quaid e Azam caliber ...she must have remembered with great love and respect outside her party too.
but the problem is that she was openly a US agent ...unfortunately!
she use to write US for help when she thrwon out from powers.
she was a US agent ...thats why US feciliatates a deal between Mush n her .
she was a US agent thats why she vowed in washington times interview in her alst days of life that if she became PM ,she wud handed over AQ Khan to IAEA.she wud allow US to strike on northern Paksitan ....
its on record .
not only that ...
she has huge corruption charges .
if they all were false ..
why she BEG for NRO through US ?
she owns surray palace .
a BBC documentry is on record named Princess and Play boy ...which shows a lavsih lifestyle of BB ...
thats why ppl are reluctanat to accept her as a Madar e Millat.
as long as Quaid e Azam is concerned ..he has no match.
he has zero corruption charges on him.
he has zero connections with anti Pak elements .
he was a man of priciples ..he was offered DEALS but never accepted those.
above all HE DID WHAT HE HAD PROMISED TO HIS FOLLOWERS .
thats why he stands way high than any other leader of today.
u just cant even comapre BB with the great Quaid e Azam.no2..if Iftikhar Chdhri or AQ Khan or Talat Hussain has been found guilty and did deals with US or US agents they wud loose all the respect of ppl they have earned with a passage of time.
like BB lost her anti dictator force iamge when she stroke a dael with dictator Mush.Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 13:17 # -
@ My dear beena,
I agree to your logic to establish the standard of credibility of a leader.
O.K.
(Let's postpone to open the pandora box of the issue of financial or political corruption for the time being)
If BB or PPP deserves hate due to a pro-American inclination, then let me ask you to name that is not pro-American since 1947?
What about the myth that Pakistan was created to protect and promote the American-British Strategy against the Russian Communism and the Muslim League along with its leadership worked as agent to materialize the object?Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 13:55 # -
Fahim23
MemberWe should feel proud that a Pakistani has been awarded Human Rights Award. We should not let our hatered, bias, and pessimism overwhelm us and make us only useful for cursing.
@Beenai,
There are many in our country who sees Quaid-e-Aza as "Angraiz ka agent" and "Kaafir". There are many who has left no abuse unused for our founder of nation.
I personally think that ZAB was much more intelligent and capable than another great man of our country Quaid-e-Azam.
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 15:47 # -
Asif
Blockedselective proudness?
The guys who owe their STATURE to Ayub, Zia & Mush can never be democratic, as they were groomed & brought to the corridors of power by dictators, they always tortured their political opponents like their MENTORS.
We have to discourage them at every forum in order to move forward.
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 19:26 # -
What about the Qauid-i-Azam, who was groomed by the British Colonialists?
Would you hesitate to accept him as one of the most democratic leaders?Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 19:32 # -
Asif
BlockedWas Quaid-e-Azam brought into the corridors of power by Goras?
Did he torture his political opponents?
Just let us know when he served for the British Gov in sub-continent & enhance our knowledge!!!
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 19:37 # -
Read History Books.
Not only the Qauid-i-Azam, but also whole the lot of Freedom Fighters starting from Sir Syed Ahmad Khan onward, were Groomed, Educated and Beneficiaries of the British Government.Here is what Mr. Fahim23 has observed:
"There are many in our country who sees Qauid-i-Azam as "Angraiz ka agent" and "Kaafir". There are many who has left no abuse unused for our founder of nation."
Posted 3 years ago on 12 Dec 2008 22:41 # -
Asif
Blockedmashter chawaliyyan na maar, jey sawal da jawab aanda tey dey!!!
Do Quaid-e-Azam owe his STATURE to British govt?
Did Quaid-e-Azam tortured/killed his political oponents while holding the office?these are to the point questions & need to the point answers, no more your hanky panky as usual :)
Posted 3 years ago on 13 Dec 2008 0:29 # -
Who asked this question?
"Was Qauid-i-Azam brought into the corridors of power by Goras?"Of course! He was appointed and supported by the British Government to become the First Governor General of Pakistan according to the Government of India Act 1935, approved by the British Parliament .
. I believe there is nothing wrong, where one candle is lit by another candle. This is called evolution.Now read what Fahim23 tried to answer to a stupid question, you are repeating and reporting again and again and gradually you are trying to hold Hazrat Adam, responsible for all what has gone wrong to Pakistan)
"There are many in our country who sees Qauid-i-Azam as "Angraiz ka agent" and "Kaafir". There are many who has left no abuse unused for our founder of nation."
Person without proper homework cannot understand the story.
(It is of no use to beat about the bush, where you lack information.)Posted 3 years ago on 13 Dec 2008 1:21 # -
Asif
Blockedmashter, Quaid-e-Azam was not appointed by British Government as a leader of Muslim League & GG of Pakistan, he was elected by muslims of subcontinent as a leader of Muslim League & then GG of Pakistan. "azadi lee jati hai dee nahi jati"
It was muslims of subcontinent who raised his STATURE not Lord_XYZ or Gernail somethin.
Stop spreading falsehood. And stop saving the **** of Gernails & their raised pithus who only used corridors of power for their personal interests & to torture/kill their political opponents. They spend negligble to nothing for the education of a common man but always gave a healthy chunk of budget to their MENTORS(Gernails) & own accounts.
Posted 3 years ago on 13 Dec 2008 3:07 # -
this is a useless discussion the people you guys are discussing are in their graves. what should be discussed is how to hold the corrupt minister accountable who is wasting public money loaned by IMF. instead of that you guys are whinning about Jinah and BB. I would like to see that muchar minister out of the govt.
Posted 3 years ago on 13 Dec 2008 4:44 # -
azeem1
Membersheikh sathia gya hai.
Posted 3 years ago on 13 Dec 2008 8:50 # -
14 Points:
1. Read the proceedings of the debate step by step to reach a conclusion, when, where and who took the wrong exit.
2. You will find the point of twist if you have a little common sense.
3. Abusive language could not help to raise your status, image or point of view.
4. Who dragged Ayub Khan, Zia, and Musharaf in to the debate for nothing?
5. Who is trying to go back gradually towards Hazarat Adam to make a stupid point?
6. Who gets personal immediately when out of arguments?
7. Better one should quit the thread under discussion where he feels his intellectual bag has gone empty.
8. The thread was initiated to criticize why BB has been awarded with the Human rights Award?
9. Is that issued a threat to Pakistan's National Security?
10. What's wrong if any Pakistani's citizen is Internationally recognized for her/his contributions? Is that a cause of concern or appreciation?
11. What is the psychology to cultivate hatred, hatred and hatred against celebrities, you don't like? (Including persons like Faiz Ahmad Faiz, Dr. Abdul Salam and many more)
12. The charges of corruptions are still myth not reality, proved by any Court of Law.
13. No one should play blame-game based upon mere political propaganda.
14. Whoever is convicted by the Court of Law, for Corruption (financial or political), should be condemned, and punished, but not otherwise."If BB or PPP deserves hate due to a pro-American inclination, then let me ask you to name that is not pro-American since 1947?
What about the myth that Pakistan was created to protect and promote the American-British Strategy against the Russian Communism and the Muslim League along with its leadership worked as agent to materialize the object?""A nation could not produce a single unanimously respectable leader within 62 years with the exception of the Qauid-I-Azam. (Hard to understand why he has been spared of criticism so far?)
These are the symptoms of a nation, unfit to survive.""Great Minds discuss IDEAS.
Average Minds Discuss Events.
Small Minds Discuss People."Posted 3 years ago on 13 Dec 2008 10:59 # -
aristotle
MemberIntention is more important than intelligence … I always prefer a leader who is not much inelegant but sincere with us… nation and the country… power hungry ppl never can be trusted,,,, can anybody give me an example of Muhtarma’s effort for Human Rights? I will be grateful.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 6:00 # -
@Shiekh sahib,
i am sorry to again differ with u .
but i have to...unfortunately!
as with all of my consious n hard efforts i havent been able to convince myself that BB was not corrupt or not a US agent ...as facts are speaking louder than assumptions .
anyways .
no2..if Quaid e Azam was a Gora agent and Pakistan was came into being ,out of any conspiracy...than why from day one the whole world is after this small piece of land to be crush?
US wants to crush us.......India wants to crush us .
Israel wants to crush us...Afghanistan wants to crush us.
all the pitthos of US like britan,france and Japan wants to join hands with US to crush is .
whhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
why they r imposing wars on us?
why they r afraid pf us ????
why they r after our lives????
why they discuss Paksitan at each and every global strategy forum???
if we r only a brain child of them...
actually ...thats not the case.
in western countries opinion
we happen to be an accidentail birth baby .....
not planned but just happened.
otherwise ..why they want to break Paksitan into two pieces in 1971.
why world powers appreciate india left right centre ...when india tries to interfare in Karachi ,Balochistan and interior sindh?
why they all are united on a single agneda to PUSH PAKISTAN TOWARDS TO WALL????Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 6:36 # -
Fahim23
Member@Beenai,
May be world is not our enemy per se but it simply works in a way that if you are weak every body will take advantage of you and even exploit you.
Beside about Quaid-e-Azam I can see you have high respect for him like most pakistanis, but there are many people in our country who genuinely believe that he was british agent, they called him Kafir-e-Azam. Poked into his personal life and declared him drunk, expel him frm circle of Islam when he married a parsi girl, he was never liked by the islamic sections of our society who say wearing three piece suits and joining cocktail parties Kabeerah gunah. Most islamic scholars believed (Abul-kalam azad, maulana maudodi, and JUI hind, etc) that if india is united it would have been better for muslims.
I have no shame in admitting that generally we have attitude problem, and we lack in tolerance, we dunt believe/respect difference of opinion, and we like accusing people. This is one of the reasons heroes and great people (like Jinnah and ZA Bhutto) of this country are riddiculed and abused in their own country. On the other hand if we agree with someone, we are very quick to idealize him/her. We can't bear to listen any negative thing attributed to him/her even if it is backed with solid reasons.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 7:02 # -
Fahim23
Member@aristotle
Please find my replies to Mr. GM in following thread, where you will find the various development works carried out all over Pakistan in the 2nd and 3rd tenure of PPP government when Mohtarma was PM.
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/02/25/ppp-pakistan-peoples-party/
If you want detailed achievements of PPP please visit:
http://www.pppusa.org/achievements.htmI am sure if you compare these project with any other government of Pakistan, you will clearly see a difference.
Beside best example for mohtarma's personal contribution is SZABIST, free medical camps by people's doctors forum , free legal aid by peoples lawyer's forum mostly funded by Bhutto family etc and personally I like the way she got married in kikri ground liyari.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 7:17 # -
@Fahim,
do u really think that ZAB was a great leader than Quaid Azam?
i doubt it...
any sane ,litrate and well informed cant even compare the two ....
Quiad E Azam was not been charged as corrupt ever.
he was the cleanest politician in indopak atleast.
as compare to BB ,who had loads of false and true corruption charges on her.
Quaid e azam never ever ever done a secret deal with any one.
but BB did with US and Mush the dictator....
she was the agent of US ...her interviews with Voice of America,Washington Post ,CNN and other US media are on record to prove her as an US agent by offering full support to US to strike on north Paksitan and promsing of handing over AQ Khan to IAEA in case she became PM.
she was filty rich but power hungry.
she never done any good for the ppl who voted her .
even we have seen her own native town Neu Deru in her funerals ...
this town is in worst of its conditions .
she promised Roti,Kapra and Makaan .
but never able to deliever the promise to all the Paksitanis .
neither to her devoted voters at Liyari or Larkana.
on the other hand
Quaid e Azam did a promise to his nation.
and full filled that .
a piece of land called Pakistan.
so plz dont even try to comapre the two .
u cant compare apple and oranges.
thanksPosted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 7:20 # -
@Fahim,
her wedding ceremony in kikri ground was just a political stunt and nothingelse.
otherwise if she cares as a true leader
she wud have made possible , clean driking water supply to Liyari ppl.
but she never done that instead of being PM twice.
salute to her human rights efforts
wedding ceremony in liyari....
great service for liyari ppl ....
the whole nation is really pissed off by this marraige and facing the outcomes of this marraige rite now after her death.Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 7:27 # -
Fahim23
Member@Beenai
You have all the right to doubt that. That is my opinion that ZAB (not BB) was much more intelligent and capable than Mr. Jinnah (however I believe it is a useless discussion to rank them as I have great respect for both of them, Beside ZAB himself was great admirer of Quaid-e-Azam!), and I think I am also entitled to keep one and can compare anybody I like. I can only apologize if it is bothering you. ZAB too like QA was never accused of corruption. Zia tried alot but he failed miserably.
There are striking resemblances betweeb Quaid-e-Azam and ZAB. Both were poplar leader, both were foreign qualified, both were accused of Kafir, their personal life became talking point by religious parties, both were from Sindh, both were lawyers by qualification, both studied at Lincoln's inn and many more.
As far as BB's achievements are concerned I have just posted a reply to Mr. aristotle above which lists many of her acheivement especially for the people of Sindh. If you don't value them, then I have no problem with it. If people of sindh are served from Pakistan government, it is only when there is PPP's government. On your comment about BB's wedding in liyari I would again say it is your opinion which I don't share. People of Liyari like people all over Pakistan have voted 4 times in 10 elections and PPP have always secured most number of votes in every election of Pakistan.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 7:53 # -
aristotle
Memberfahim
kikri ground is oked but u did not see her jewelry on this occasion… anyways, (kash kikri ground me ye shadi na hoti tu aaj hum sab aur BB khud in halaat ka shikar na hoti) I think u understand that these tactics like wedding ceremony with simplicity is a political / publicity stunt, I don’t take it seriously, but we need and believe in serious, solid and practical initiatives who belongs and affects public’s life directly. (eik din shadi kikri ground me kar lena aur phir sari zindagi huge palaces me rehna , do u think this is simplicity? or sincerity with da public or country) … my child ! Grow up and wake up/… and yes, SZAB is a controversial property between BB and murtaza Bhutto.. They were fighting for major shares holding, after Murtaza death (als! result of kiktri ground wedding) BB and Murtaza’ children were fighting over it… and now! After BB the case is going on between Mr 10% and Murtaza’ s family…. these r our hero who were or r working for Human Rights… who don’t respect human life and always prefers money …. BB had also stared a grand operation against karachities during her tenure in command of Nasirullah babar… a large number of innocent ppl especially youngers were killed in this operation… wat do u say abt this service ? is this for Human rights?
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 8:00 # -
Fahim23
Member@aristotle
I have given a list of achievements for your consideration. I'm not sure you have even skimmed them or not or you just don't value them! Anyways, the way she got married was just one of my personal admiration for Mohtarma I don't expect you to take it exactly as I do, and for your kind information, she did not wear any expensive jewllery:
"On December 18, 1987, Benazir and Asif had an almost traditional Pakistani wedding.
Concerned about how some of the Pakistani wedding traditions were extravagant and difficult for poor families, Benazir broke with tradition by trying to keep their wedding simple. She eliminated the dowry, had only two shalwar kameez instead of the traditional nearly 51 dresses and wore only one layer of jewelry.Benazir wore a white silk tunic with gold-embroidery. Asif wore a turban and a cream-colored tunic.
Bhutto / Zardari Wedding PhotoAsif and Benazir and their families had several days of celebration. The couple said "yes" three times, and at their wedding ceremony Benazir and Asif looked into a mirror together so they could see themselves as a married couple for the first time. Sugar was ground over their heads so their lives would be sweet.
Although their wedding ceremony was small and private, in the streets after their wedding there were 100,000 political supporters dancing, singing, firing guns in the air, and enjoying fireworks."
Source: http://marriage.about.com/od/politics/a/benazirbhutto.htm
The military operation in Karachi was started in the first term of NS and that operation was given to civilian forces, Karachi police and Naseerullah babur a minister in her government. The operation was largely successful and it brought peace to the city who was regularly taking 50 dead bodies. But unfortunately some extra-judicial killings did happen and innocent people lost their lives. But not all police encounters were fake, and MQM has exaggerated the lost of lives by extra judicial encounter. Nevertheless, the injustice to innocent people did happen and we can't defened it.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 8:16 # -
aristotle
MemberFAahim
Mohtarma shaheed said in her interview that” Mery oper money laundering k charges hen, magar me kehte hoon k musharf sahib meri shadi ki tasveer dekhen k me ne kitna qeemti necklace pehna hoa hey .. me tu pehle hee itni ammer thee aur asif sahib ka ghar bhi 1,000 k plot par tha”
a u r saying that us ne koi expensive jewelry nahi pehi thee, who is right ? u or mohtarma?????
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 8:23 # -
Fahim23
Member@aristotle
I have never heard from BB saying that. Please provide me source as I have provided you of what she and her spouse took on that day. She did wear one layer of jewllery and she could have easily afforded it. She belonged to one of the richest families of Pakistan even before partition.
Anyways, if possible please go through the achievements which are substantial and much more significant then this symbolic marriage act.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 8:33 # -
@Fahim,
anybody can love with any leader and can go to that extent as much as he wants .
i have no issues obviously!
but u have to admitt
no leader even ZAB can touch the public respect as Quiad E Azam has .
ZAB may have commonalities with Quaid .
but that msut be co incidently.
Quaid e Azam never imposed DINA JINNAH to rule Pakistan after his death.
he never believed in Jaddi Pushti politics.in long and short of it
Quaid e Azam had EARNED the respect ...
a streetman still loves him .
Bhutto has respect in the heart of ppl who r intellectuals ...sitting in drawingrooms and reading Newsweek and Times ,watching CNN and FOX News.
see urself
u have to force the members to respect Bhutto.
for Quaid e Azam...i dont need that .
i know every member including urself love n respect him.
end of story.Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 8:37 # -
@Fahim,
@She belonged to one of the richest families of Pakistan even before partition.u forgot to mention....
why she belongs to the richest family ?
how her family became richest b4 partition?that means in GORA period of rule.
simple answer
she belongs to a GHADDAR family.
her grand father Shahnawaz Ali Bhutto has been a spy of Gora sarkar.
in return he got the title of SIR and lot of land .......
coz these land was useless for angreez but he was the all in all..
so angreez sarkar use these lands as a hook to local spies like Sir Shahnawaz Bhutto.
thats how Benazir Dada Jee became a feudal lord.his nature transfered into the blood of his son Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto .
and his son ZAB divided Pakistan into TWO parts due to his power hunger.BB has got the same blood circulating in her viens .
so she served US agendas while being on power throne twice.
when the third time ...she was promised by US to be given a thrid chance to be a PM.
was given a deal chance between Mush the dictator and her.
she had started giving impressions in her interviews to the foreign media ,that she will agian serve US goals being a PM.REALITY IS STRANGER THAN FICTION.
u must have heard .
thanksPosted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 8:50 # -
aristotle
Memberfahim
i saw and heard this interview clips on a tv channel i think it was GEO and recorded in London before her return to pakistanlove is always blind... u cant see her palaces and a lot balck money becoz love is blind anyways everyone has right to love anyone
i m surprised that how u can compare Mr Jinnah & ZAB????? A founder and a broker is equal?
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 9:12 # -
aristotle
Memberbeenai
i want to search an old topic in discuss ... how can i search it? plz guidePosted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 9:15 # -
Fahim23
Member@Beenai,
Although you ended the story in above post, but now as you have started again I would present to you that "Respect is relative, just as an example, For christians Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is viewed differently as compared to muslims and similarly Prophet Jesus (AS) for muslim is viewed differenrly then he is for christians. As an other example, Gandhi is hero in india and ppl of Pakistan make jokes of him, and for indians Jinnah is Ghaddar!
You are right QA is considered as a common leader for most of us because he is Father of nation. While poor ZAB is easy punching beg. But I have personally seen many who call our founder many names and abuses. In fact I have seen more in my common life who abuse him then those who respects him. But that's only my presonal experience.
Mr. Jinnah made many deals with britishers. He also just one year before the independance agreed on cabinet mission which agreed a unified India. But I'm sure he must have made those deals in the best intrest for his nation. Similarly I believe the so called deals BB made was purposed to end dictatorship and bring democracy in this country.
Most muslim leaders and especially muslim league leaders like Sir syed Ahmed Khan, Sir Mohammad Iqbal (Alama Iqbal), Sir Abdullah Harron, etc were honored with this title by Britishers. Please share with us what are your opinion about them.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 9:15 # -
@aristotle,
u can click on ur own profile ...
under ur profile...
there is a list of topics ....
intiated by u and contributed by u .....
u can go there like that .
thanksPosted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 10:15 # -
@Fahim,
i know thousands of Paksitanis who loves and respect Quaid E Azam.
few exceptionla cases are always there in every case.
no2.its all about intentions ...at the end of the day ..
intentions counts .
if Jinnah was talking to britishers that was a different scenerio.
as britishers was ruling over india at that point.
but if BB is talking to US ...that shows her intention to be a slave of US.
as we r not yet a decleared colony of US .
no3...Quaid did it was a graceful and open talk on terms .
not a hidden deal for personal gains.
what Ms.Bhutto did was a very secret deal in Abu Dhabi between Mush dictator and her .
which she was denying in the first place.
after it became an open secret than she admitted the deal.
if it was for AWAM and DEMOCRACY ..she wud have admitted that she had done it in the first place.
no4. Quaid e Azam was not a CORRUPT person..who needs NRO from any one.
again
facts speaks louder than assumptions on no grounds.
thanksPosted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 10:50 # -
Fahim23
Member@Beenai,
Intentions are something only to be judged by ALLAH Saeen. I think we transgress our position and capability when we involve ourself in this business. And it sounds so naive to me you saying that we are independant soverign nation. In the world history no weak nation has ever been sovereign. Same is the case with current Pakistan. It is politically and economically slave/dependent of world powers. Please read the last book of Mohtarma to find out the contents of talks between a military dictator ruling the country (even britishers could not find such a slave in Pakistan as Americans have found in our unfortunate country).
It was foresightedness of Mohtarma due to which we have a democratically elected governement replaced by all mighty all powerful dictatorship without any bloodshed and voilence, and I am pretty optimisitc about future too.
She never denied any talks between her and the military rulers. In fact in many interviews and press conferences she said that my party is involved in dialogues with Gen. Musharaf since 2001. We are trying to convince the military ruler to take off his uniform, establish an independent election commission to hold free and fair election and remove the ban imposed on 3rd time primiership. But as nothing concrete is reached upon in the meetings I have nothing to tell to the people.
PS:
1- I think you are constantly mistaking despite my clarification that I made a comparison if any between Jinnah sb and ZAB (Not BB). Mohtarma however, in current sets of leaders available to us was best choice in my opinion, but unfortunately she was eliminated.
2- I don't intent to force anyone convince with my ideas and views of different things and personalities.Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 16:37 # -
LOL Thats the biggest joke in the world, Benazir and simple and ordinary.
And what about the diamonds on Benazirs glasses?
And the Surrey Estate? Which Zardari confessed to owning in a British court yet Benazir kept denying in Pakistani public life. What about the hundreds of millions in her bank accounts on which she was accused that they were obtained through money laundering and kickbacks/bribes? What about her businesses and companies worth hundreds of millions? What about her apartment in New York worth millions? What about her villa in Dubai worth millions?
I personally think Benazir was better than her father who was a disaster, although he was more sincere than her, yet how is/was she a good leader? She was elected Prime Minister twice, but, what great vision did she give for Pakistan? Am I missing something?
And this so called good for nothing "democracy" or demon-crazy as I like to call it sometimes, well first of all, is not much different from what we had under Musharraf, there was an elected parliament and elected provincial governments and an elected federal govt. but the most powerful authority was the president, not much difference today.
And secondly, it was not because of Benazir, she was "negotiating" since 2001 or something, her "negotiations" clearly didnt do much until 2007. It was actually the lawyers (as much as I disagree with them) and the media (as much as I disagree with them and their behavior), it was the media and the lawyers that became the catalyst for this half broken looli langri mazoor democracy that you have today (which again, is not much of a difference from 1999 to 2007). Benazir just took full advantage of Musharrafs weakness and got the Americans to force Musharraf to forfeit her cases and corruption charges and come back into power. Unfortunately, or should I say fortunately? She ended up dying in the process.
Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 20:54 # -
aristotle
Memberfahim
u said "Mr. Jinnah made many deals with britishers" i just want to ask that in these deals, anyone was for himself and his family? For removal or dismissal of cases? for clearance of his accounts? BB did it … she had expressed commitment to continue Musharraf’s policies and u can see it is continuing…. wake up my child! Don’t expect sincerity from these politicians …they always played with us and still playing.
beenai
thanks for guidancePosted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 7:16 # -
Fahim23
Member@aristotle
I maintain the same opinion about Mohtarma as you maintan about QA that is, she didn't struck any deals with military dictator for her personal gain. She started negotiating with Musharaf as soon as the first opportunity arrived (2002 elections). She even made deal with the establishment in 1987. She was politician and dialogues was her only weapon. And she had been very successful in brining democracy to Pakistan. None of the deals have been for personal gain. She didn't needed to have any favours. She herself and her family had everything one could possibly have in Pakistan.
I also maintain that the NRO in its present form was not part of the talks between Mohtarma and Musharaf. However, PPP since the 2nd term of NS demanded to remove the politically motivated cases against BB and her party. It was their due right. Mohtarma and AZ has already suffered a life sentence without being proven guilty even if all the charges of corruption are proved on them. Unfortunately most politicians in Pakistan are corrput and for me it is very easy to support Mohtarma and PPP because of her idealogy, political skills and power, sacrifices, qualifications and vision than anybody else in Pakistan's politics.
Please note that the top beneficiaries of NRO is MQM, retired generals, PML Q and thn comes PPP.
Posted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 17:15 # -
There are two kinds of leaders.
1. Corrupt and capable
2. Corrupt and incapable
Whom the voters should elect?
Just visualize how Benazir could have handled the existing situation had she been alive?
There is no doubt she was master of diplomatic negotiations at the International political arena.Posted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 17:42 # -
"There are two kinds of leaders.
1. Corrupt and capable
2. Corrupt and incapable"Completely agreed. I dont care MUCH if the rulers pocket a few million here and there, as long as they are visionaries and deliver, it can be ignored, Im sure the Chinese Communist Party leaders are not angels.
I actually admire JS for accepting that BB might have been corrupt and not stay in denial like other PPP jahilas, oops I mean jiyalas.
Although I am not really sure if Benazir was capable or not, I mean she was prime minister twice, I didnt really get a vision or anything from her. I cant really think of any major progress is any areas she made, except like getting missiles from North Korea (which had a major role of the military) or the IPPs.
What is really funny is how this Fahim guy actually believes that BB didnt want the NRO and somehow Musharraf forced it down her throat lol The PPP itself admitted to demanding the NRO, it supported the NRO, the NRO was actually drafted by PPP lawyers. The NRO was only suppose to clear out cases prior to Oct 1999, so I dont see how it would benefit the PMLQ much.
Mr. Fahim,
What about cases started by the Swiss courts and the English courts and the Spanish courts ON THEIR OWN, were they politically motivated too?
Lets assume that these too were politically motivated, and so were the ones in Pakistan. So is the right way to get rid of them through the NRO or some other mean of the sort? Or is it by appearing in the courts (which BB and Zardari werent doing saying things like they have security fears and that Zardari was ill; things of that sort), is it by appearing in courts and proving your innocence in courts and winning the cases? Or do the Swiss and the Spanish and the English have kangaroo courts too?
Posted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 18:21 # -
Fahim23
Member@Secular_Pakistan
Corruption of even a single penny is wrong. But in pakistan I know remaining an angel here is next to impossible, especially when you are involved in a business like politics.
Despite my strong affiliation with PPP, I can't rule out the possibility of BB and her spouse AZ being personally involved in corruption (you seem to have missed this which has always been my stance and expressed many times on this forum). But who is not corrupt? ZAB was not financial corrupt but he did some compromises (which I term as principle corruption), for eg., in the elections of 1977 he gave party tickets to those feudals and landlords whom he fought himself in 70's elections, just for political gain. He also tried to appease the religious sections of our society by accepting their unncessary demands.
The point I was trying to make is that, PPP being most powerful voice against the establishment and giving say to common people of Pakistan, it has paid its price. PPP and its leadership has been singled out and the charges against them are highly exaggerated. Almost always she has suffered media trial. Malik Qayyum was sacked from his job as a judge when he was caught malaciously convicting BB and her spouse. Saif-ur-rehman had admitted in court of law that he made false cases against BB and her family. NS has publically admitted that the cases were politically motivated.
If you want to be fair to PPP and Bhutto family you should admit that even before entering into politics they were among financially top families of Pakistan. AZ and his family too is among the wealthy landlords of Sindh and were also involved in business of estate, hotels and cinema. To afford houses in Dubai, NY or UK they didn't needed to be the most corrupt in Pakistan. How about Chowdhry brothers whose father was a police officer (SHO) and now they own an empire even in countries like Korea? How can you buy so easily that a person who once said "over my dead body" and "I will kick them" takes a long jump and waive off the cases of probably his bitter enemy which he tried to prove and convict for 8 long years? Why don't you reconsider to find out the actual motivations behind NRO when that draft benefitted the MQM (musharaf's favorite most party, retired generals and PMLQ) and heavily damaged the credibility of PPP? Its like AZ and PPP was put in jail for 11 and half years and after NOT being convicted of anything instead of coming out as hero he is accused of new crime and must bear the blame of NRO?
Mohtarma's abilities and skills are recognized all over world. Despite all powerful establishment and anti PPP forces, she was elected as first muslim WOMEN prime minister not once but twice. She like her father was brilliant in oratory skills. She dealt many situations in her short term tenures and contributed her part for the stability and development of Pakistan. If you compare the development works done by her short term tenures you will find them uncomparable to any government of her contemporaries.
For some reasons you seem to have missed the vision and idealogy of PPP. Let me rewrite here for you. "Islam is our religion, Democracy is our politics, Socialism is our economy and power belongs to people". This idealogy given by ZAB was followed by Mohtarma and PPP.
Let me correct some factually wrong claims you have made in your post. NRO was NOT drafted by PPP lawyer's it was drafted from government side and only faxed to Mohtarma which she approved and send back to thn government. What she demanded was to take back all motivated cases against her and her party workers, which in my opinion was very legitimate demand especially when AZ suffered 11 and half years without being proven guilty and her opponents publically accepted that these cases were politically motivated. You also seem to miss that PMLQ's leaders were once the major leaders of PMLN, that's how they benefitted from NRO along with MQM.
Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 5:37 # -
Fahim23
MemberAchievements of PPP
For hose who has missed all of this: http://www.pppusa.org/achievements.htm
I would appreciate if some of you can provide similar details for any other party except PPP in Pakistan!1988-90
Land Reforms
Distributed 35000 acres of land among the landless peasants. Each farmer was given 12.5 acres of land. The landlords challenged the land reforms in Supreme Court and because of court intervention the hand reforms were temporarily halted.
More than five hundred political workers, who were economically destroyed by the Zia regime because of their struggle for democracy, were given small residential plots on official rates.Housing
Arrangements were made to build 2000 two-room small houses for homeless in every big city.
One thousand small houses were built in Karachi and handed over to homeless at a price of 30,000 each payable in small easy instalments.Labour Reforms
Ban was immediately lifted on trade union activities.
Forty thousands industrial workers previously sacked were reinstated.
Labour wages were increased twice.
Labours were awarded share in the income of their enterprise.
Decision was taken to build labour colonies in every industrial city.
Labours were given the right of pension after retirement.Health
It was decided to establish government dispensaries in every Union Council.
Admission and bed fees forced upon during Zia’s regime were abolished.Education
For the very first time in the history of Pakistan, in the budget of 1989-90 the amount allocated for education was increased.
The education budget was again increased in 1990-91.
Fifty thousand new teachers were employed.
Education made compulsory upto 8th class.
Importance was given to technical and scientific education.Youth Policy
Ban on students unions was lifted immediately so that the youth can get training and develop discipline and achieve organisational expertise during their college years.
To address the problems of youth a separate ministry for youth affairs was established.
80 thousands new literacy centres were set up throughout the country.Women Affairs
Ten thousands young people were given loans of 50 thousands each to start their own businesses.
Very first time a separate ministry for women affairs was established to solve their problems.
Women Bank was established.
Women were given loan facility to start their own businesses.
Computer centres for women were started in Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad.Water & Power
Electricity was supplied to 4 thousand Villages in twenty months, which is a record.
Electricity supplied to more than 12 lac houses.
Private sector was encouraged and 1 billion $ investment from private sector was arranged for electric generation.
Ghazi Brotha and Neelam Jhelum projects (1 thousand Mega Watts) were initiated.
To overcome the energy problem an agreement was signed with China for the supply of a 300 MW nuclear Power Plant.Communication & Production
Built a Satellite Station connecting Skardu, Gilgit and Gawadur with Islamabad.
Microwave channel was built to connect Karachi and Peshawar.
600 new post offices were opened.
Port Qasim was extended.
Pakistan Steel Mills was extended and its productivity increased.
Employment of 5000 workers were secured by restarting Baluchistan Textile Mills.
Millat Tractors was extended and its productivity increased from 12000 tractors per year to 18000 tractors per year.
A new plant of Suzuki Cars was constructed.
The lines for 1,50,000 new telephone connections were placed.
18 cities were connected via direct dialling system.Oil & Gas
30% increase in production of oil and gas.
Work started to build a refinery.Industry
Rupees 3.88 billion petrochemical project started.
An assembly plant of Toyota Hi Ace, Jeeps and Cars was started.
Loan facilities were extended for establishing small industrial units.
Limits for investment without government approval, was increased.Defence
Two Frigates were handed over to Pakistan Navy.
Pakistan started indigenous aircraft production.
New sophisticated radar system started operation.
Acquired sixty F-16 Planes.Freedom of Press & Expression
Press laws aimed at censorship lifted.
Journalists terminated from service during Martial Law regime were reinstated.
No objection certificate for journalists to travel abroad was abolished.
Employees of Radio and Television were reinstated.Religious Services
An international Secret Conference was held.
The numbers of Pilgrims were increased in 1989. The new Haj Policy was adopted and over 1 lacs people were sent to perform Haj in 1990.
2 Secret Conferences were held.
Haj flights were initiated from Lahore and Islamabad.Miscellaneous
Conference of the Heads of States of SAARC was held in Islamabad.
China announced to extend an interest free loan of 5 crore dollars.
Pakistan rejoined the Common Wealth.
Relations with India normalised and an agreement of no attack on nuclear installations was signed.
Russia approved 1 billion dollar for extension of Karachi Steel Mills.
A separate ministry was established for eradication of drug smuggling.
Big drug traffickers were arrested and put behind bars.
South Asian Games were successfully held.1993-96
Development
Built 21,000 primary schools.
Provided 700,000 new telephone connections.
Electricity to 18,000 villages.
Airport at Sehwan Sharif.
Airport at Gawadur.
Work on Ketti Bandar Port started.
Construction of Akra Dam providing safe drinking water to the coastal regions of Mehran.Foreign Policy
For the first time the OIC summit at Casablanca adopted a unanimous resolution asking for a solution of Kashmir dispute in accordance with the UN resolutions.
Adoption of Brown Amendment which partially released the military equipment and hardware stuck up in the US since long due to Pressler Law.Law & Order
Peace in Karachi. A near end to terrorism acknowledged by friends and foes alike.
Defence
Agosta submarines for the Pakistan Navy.
Tanks for the Army.
Missile capability developed which was to be announced as the Golden Jubilee gift to the Nation on August 14,1997.Energy
An end to the load shedding by enlisting the private sector in power development sector through a uniform policy of tariffs and concessions hailed by the World Bank as a model for the developing countries.
Completion of the first private sector power plant, HUBCO.
Our 11000 kilometers of gas transmission line completed to provide gas to 240 new towns and villages.
Oil and gas exploration stepped up. As a result four new oil and gas wells discovered.Communication
Laying of the optic fiber along with right bank of Indus.
Introduced cellular telephones, digital pager, satellite dish and FM Radio.Social Sector
Countrywide Polio Vaccination Programme-Nearly 100 percent children under the age of five vaccinated against Polio in three years.
A large number of Computer Centres opened - Special centers for women
Recruitment of 33,000 Lady Health Visitors to reduce infant mortality.Legislation/Northern Areas
Electoral reforms bill adopted for the first time.
For the first time people of Northern Areas given the right to vote.Women Development
First time Women Police Stations set up, Women Bank opened and Women Judges appointed in superior judiciary.
Media
Complete press freedom.
Sixth Wage Board award announced for the newspaper workers. The award was also mplemented in the APP.Finance
For the first time since independence, Cabinet members were forbidden to take loans from Pakistani Banks.
State Bank of Pakistan made an autonomous organisation.
For the first time one billion dollars of debt retired.
From a dismal growth rate of 2.3% in 1992-93 which it inherited, the PPP government raised the economic growth to 5.2% in 1995-96. The growth rate plunged to 3. I % in 1996-97 after the removal of PPP government, a figure further lowered to 1.3% in the budget.
Fiscal defcit in the last year of PPP government i.e.1995-96 brought down to 5%, from 8% of GDP which it had inherited.
Tax revenue which were only 7.2% of GDP in 92-93 was raised to 14. I % of GDP in 1995-96. Last year the tax to GDP ratio again fell to 10.2%.
Due to investment-oriented policies, more than 3 billion dollars of direct foreign investment flowed into the country. As against this the present government has scared away foreign investment through its mishandling of the IPP issue and freeze on foreign currency accounts.
A day before the PPP government was dismissal, the stock index was at 1500 points. It sank to 900 points in August 98.Welfare
Haj flights from Multan and Sukkur.
Tens of thousands of jobs provided to the educated but unemployed youth in government departments, banks, corporations and autonomous bodies.Anti Narcotics
Effective anti-narcotics measures and legislation adopted for the first time.
Half a dozen major drug barons extradited.
Death penalty and confiscation of property provided in the law for drug pushers.Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 5:40 # -
CASES, CORRUPTION AND NRO:
You completely ignored the part of my post about the numerous cases against the couple in Switzerland, Spain and England, started by authorities there.
Secondly, BBs policies were completely different from that of ZA Bhutto. The very 3 pillars you mentioned, BB went against two of them.
IDEOLOGY OF PPP:
Islam: Bhutto started Islamisation, although not as much as Gen. Zia, but, he started a lot of Islamisation, for instance he banned alcohol. Benazir on the other hand was a liberal who believed in secularism, rather than Islamization. Which is something I support.
Socialism: Bhutto started socialism and wrecked the economic structure and foundation of Pakistan. Pakistan had a much better economy and economic structure than India, which was socialist under Nehru, but, Bhutto reveresed the advantage and ruined everything. He gave sweeping powers to the unions and no one could dare question them; they essentially became thugs. Private enterprises was destroyed. BB on the other hand for the most part doesnt believe in socialism, she actually believed in capitalism, for instance, ZA Bhutto nationalised a lot of industries and companies and banks, whereas, BB actually followed the 90s policy of privatization.
ACHIEVEMENTS:
The achievements that you have given, are not really achievements. Any party X Y Z could come up with countless "achievements" like that, they could fill up hundreds of pages of books with that kind of stuff.
UNIONS AND LABOR REFORMS:
For instance, you said ban on unions was lifted. I should inform you that it was the PPP that created these unions and turned them into powerful unreasonable thugs. They became so powerful that no one could question them. My fathers uncle (kind of like grandfather) bought a factory during ZA Bhuttos tenure. What happened was the factory had a foreign owner, but, then the unions became so powerful that the workers essentially took over the factory and the real owners lost all control. So my uncle, being a Pakistani, knew how to handle the situation, he made an offer to the factory's foreign owners who were happy to dispose it and bought it for cheap. He then got a large group of thugs with weapons and got them to clear out the factory.
PIA, UNIONS AND LABOR REFORMS:
Ill tell you another story, my fathers cousin (who is kind of like an uncle) worked for PIA. He told me about the downfall of PIA. PIA actually used to be a pretty good global airlines. PIA actually helped create so many of todays successful airlines. For instance, Emirates which is an extremely successful and one of the most rapidly growing airlines in the world, started by leasing 2 airplanes from PIA in 1985. Then when the PPP came into power (I think 1987 he said), what they did was recruited thosuands of jiyalas into the airlines. He said it was so bad that there were 4 to 6 jiyalas employed on permanent contracts in every department with NO JOB DESCRIPTION, NO VACANCIES, NO REQUIRMENTS, NOT EVEN A PLACE TO SIT OR WORK. But these people were permanent employees, no one could remove them. These people can work, or do a little work, or do no work, but no one can question them, disciple them or remove them. From then on, the downfall of the PIA started. The biggest problem PIA faces today is that, it has extreme overemployment. PIA has one of the largest per plane and per passenger employee rate in the world. These couple of thousand people who really dont deserve to be employed, are not employed for free. Remember there is no free lunch in economics. These people are paid for by the taxpayers of Pakistan, 170 million Pakistanis pay so a few thousands jiyalas can have unreasonable non-productive jobs. Why should these people and the Pakistani govt. cover billions of Rupees of losses every year for these people to have their ever-lasting jobs? Why do you think PIA is never privatized? Because the PIA unions and their employees will wreck havoc at the thought of private ownership which will try to bring it out of making billions of rupees worth of losses, which would mean cutting the unnecessary jobs.
Not only is it about govt. and taxpayers money, it is also about the service offered to the customers and the population. PIA offers third rate **** crappy worst in the world service, quite frankly, I never travel PIA because I care for my comfort and my life. My dad flew PIA once locally, one of the engine was not working, they tried for ages, then all of a sudden it started working and then they flew the plane without even checking why engine wasnt working. PIA doesnt let any other airline compete with it in Pakistan. I have been told by employees of Airblue and other foreign airlines that the govt. of Pakistan never gives these airlines more than a couple of slots per week to save PIA from competition and give it a monopoly so it doesnt have to compete on price and quality and comfort and service.
REINSTATEMENT OF WORKERS:
So what is so great about reinstating 40,000 workers? Asif Zardari or Benazir will not pay their salaries. If they were in the public/govt. sector the taxpayers and the public will pay for them and keep running inefficient, incompetent, useless and corrupt beuracracies. If it were in the private sector, then they have no right to tell private businesses to hire more people, this is done on the basis of market conditions. Imagine if the govt. told you, you should all employees 2 drivers and 3 malis and 1 cook and 1 cleaner in your homes, we'd be outraged! Remember employment is NOT a right, it is something which was must earned, the reward has to be earned through work and effort. Equality of opportunities is a right, but, not the reward or employement
Not only is this misallocation of resources which is paid for by someone else; these policies in the medium to long run also result in reduction in wealth and/or reduction in wealth which was going to be created due to the way economics works.
Govt performance:
The main areas I would look at for a Pakistani govt to judge their performance(roughly in order of importance):
1. Economy and economic development
2. Infrastructure development
3. Social liberalisation and tolerance (the PPP is quite socially liberal and tolerant)
4. The issue of terrorism and militancy.
5. Education, both school and higher education (Socio-economic)
6. Health (Socio-economic)
7. Clean up of beauracracy and improvement in public services and departments. Reduction in CORRUPTION.
9. Improvment in law and order and reduction in crime
8. Progress on relations with India and movement towards the peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
10. Advancement of democratic and government structure, judicial structure, legal reforms, accountability, electoral reforms etc
11. Improvement of Pakistans image and perception in the world
Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 8:16 # -
azeem1
Memberbrothers neither ZAB had any idiology nor her daughter. I do not want to go into the details but just want to remind you about the canidates of ZAB in election.
Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 9:29 #
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