Should Muslims Have common Army Against Western Crusades?(62 posts)
Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:02 #
They already have non-official army against crusades,taliban.
Just need to resolve issues with taliban and no need to have another combined army.
ThanxPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:04 #
@Migl9 So you believe in clash of civilisations?Dont you Know how many Muslims are citizens of Western countries.?Will they fight against those countries where they were born,or immigrated and got employment?
Instead of wasting our time on these hateful ideas ,lets devote our time and energy on serving the humanity.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:16 #
i think those who really wanna fight, they all should be in Afghanistan!
Western society is screaming for all such enthusiasts to come to Afghanistan if they are born from their fathers...but guess what ....they are hiding ......
so all such who want to "fight" the western dragon, Afghanistan is waiting for you!
Mulla!Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:26 #
@baba_ji Thank you for responding with wisdom. Migel9 seems to love to talk hate from the safety of his cybercafe. I used to get angry but now I just laugh at him.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:33 #
No i think we should also make a Secret Society. I am making one Soon With the AIM of Dominating Internet Industry For Pakistan.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:34 #
we need 1 state 1 and foregion policyPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:38 #
migel is a very smart individual and he belives that we need to keep a close eye on the western propoganda thats why he is persistant in his postings....
but i internally support him cause even if his posts are the most "unreplied" to posts on this blog, yet he has been able to alert my personal attention to some stuff which would have not made into my attention span if this fat boy had not posted it...
our society always laughs first and then examines stuff....
but you are correct that he spews hate for some unknown reason while he eats and lives in the west......do you think its a inferiority complex or just typical desi nakam haram adaat......like desi in mid east they spend all their lives there yet they curse the arabs non stop day and night!
its really really impossible to find a pakistani who praises the arabs these days ...u know what I mean!
Mulla!Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:44 #
Migel, What a paradox. Your comments are viewed as hate and the so called war on terror launched by war criminals conceived as "love and peace". If we have such mentality better to wait and first cleanse our house thorougly. Afghanistan is doing both, cleansing the internal scum as well as taking on the crusader pigs.
If they don't want to see Taliban fighting the crusaders ask them to join the crusaders under any of the flags in the link. But they will never be given role to fight but to clean their toilets if they are lucky.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:50 #
chechu you work for ATT as a cable puller, you eat and live in USA and I am amazed at your attitude are you master!
Mulla!Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 17:55 #
Yes, Muslims SHOULD have VERY CLOSE Military relations, military co-ordination, military strategy, information sharing, untill Muslim UMMAT is re-established
ALL Muslim brothers/nations MUST unite in their collective cause i.e., to safe guard Muslim countries from foreign occupation. To safe guard interests of Muslims ALL around the worldPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 18:01 #
Mulla keeps harping about the matra namak haraam but fails to notice the rape and plunder of neo colonialists. Malcolm X described 2 kinds of slaves. One in the field that always rebelled and was thorn for the slave traders and the other that worked in the kitchen as butler and was cozy with the slave traders. Where do we fit?
Need to stop this mantra of namak jamak. We are eating the namak of the Creator and that's where the ultimate loyalty ought to be directed. Not to some team players that try to own the creator's property for a short span. If we do not point out the ultimate source of loyalty, the Kuffar will hold our neck on doomsday for being selfish dollar hunters in the West.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 18:01 #
sharam bhi koi cheez hai ya naheen in your "religion"....
Mulla!Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 18:14 #
I endorse your point of view.
There are millions of Muslims well settled in Western Non-Muslim countries as compared to the Non-Muslims in Muslims countries.
The clash of Civilization would further jeopardize the social life of those Muslims and their families who are already under a psychological tension and pressure after the incident of 9/11 and due to the current wave of Terrorism.
They should also keep in mind who could be the winner at the War of Civilization?Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 18:32 #
……The clash of Civilization would further jeopardize the social life of those Muslims and their families who are already under a psychological tension and pressure after the incident of 9/11 and due to the current wave of Terrorism……
Who cares for those settled in advanced countries? Rather they are jealous of those who are enjoying a prosperous life.
……They should also keep in mind who could be the winner at the War of Civilization?......
Perhaps they don’t have the vision to see that.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 18:49 #
"those Muslims and their families who are already under a psychological tension and pressure after the incident of 9/11 and due to the current wave of Terrorism."
How about the billion Muslims reeling under the so called war on terror. How about millions killed, maimed, uprooted? Don't be selfish. When one Muslim gets hurt the whole Ummah should feel the pain. Lest you forget, the current wave of terrorism started from Whitehouse and 10 Downing Street.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 18:55 #
Muslims never get success by their Army .
Allah nay emaan walon ko kabhi "asbab" say fatah nahi diPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 19:01 #
Battle of Badr? Battle of Uhad? Was it not the army of priophet SAS and Sahaba Karaam that fought against Kuffar? Prophet SAS participated in 29 major battles throughout his life.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 19:08 #
look, whether you accept it or not, there is a clash of civilizations.
the western governments give statements that oppose the clash of civilizations, and Obama goes to Egypt and gives a speech to bridge the gap between the west and the Muslims. and yet he is leading a war inside Pakistan in which he has used our sons in the army for his war against Islam. this is hypocrisy.
we Muslims are not like the west. we say that yes there is a clash of civilizations. and may the best man win, Insha Allah.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:14 #
first, muslims need to be self dependent.
we should live in our own countries...
if you depend on foreign currency of $ and pounds, foreign passports of west for a living, and yet you encourage going to AFghanistan and fighting,,, you are a hypocrite!Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:21 #
@quaidkamazaar: I believe, you are intentionally testing our knowledge and our capability to oppose your point of view
There is no thread on this forum, where you put up comments, that would show that you know or want to know anything about Islam or its teachings or its philosophy or its ways.
Your comments ALWAYS defy common sense which in itself speaks volumes.
Am I right?Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:32 #
Rasool Allah SAW Jihad was in Dawah struggle with minimum conflict ,today militants fighting for revenge and power .
The Victory of badr was not on Asbab ,Allah sent angels to protect and destroy kuffar .3000 Armed Kuffar attacked 313 Momins just because of their faith .Allah sent Malaikah for their help .Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:37 #
@netengr: What will you do if I;
1) kill ALL your loved ones, without any provocation?
2) push your economic state against the WALL for 4+ decades
3) betray you in war, by changing loyaltiesPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:42 #
are you unemployed and angry with your family ?
Mulla!Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:49 #
Nope, I'm just angry at the people who surface on forums intentionally asking stupid questions which defy common sense, intentionally taking others for "rides" and ending up in wasting everyone's time and effortPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 20:54 #
This is how I see netengr i.e., a person with a slave mindsetPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 21:03 #
I'm interested to find out, what answers will netengr give against my questionsPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 21:05 #
Angels came after the Muslim army prepared and stood firm in ground, not while waiting in houses praying for angels help.
Allah swt says you help Allah swt and Allah swt will support you. So initiative is must...Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 21:11 #
Allah swt says you help Allah swt and Allah swt will support you. So initiative is must...
I second this notionPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 21:27 #
How did you reach the conclusion of "minimum conflict" any examples to quote?
Secondly the foreign policy isn't based on minimum/maximum conflict. It is based on certain principles, depending on regional situation some times there are less and some times more conflicts. Not that policy was abandoned anytime because of "minimum conflict" doctrine. Plz drop your defeated mentality ideas.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 21:43 #
good point there JJPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:09 #
Rasool Allah SAW did not initiate the war ,
1) 13 years of Dawah of Eman there was not war even kuffaar become against Muslims
2) Rasool Allah SAW Migrated instead of fighting with them
3) The Kuffar wanted to stop muslims to spread Islam and religious practice and Kuffar initiated the fight
4) No civilian was killed by Muslims during Jihad
5)all Gazwaat were small fights and ended in hours or after some days .
6)The main intention of Muslims to spread the Kalima and bring people in Islam
7) That fight was not for revenge ,money and power .
todays war started by Muslims groups is just for Dunya ,They hate US because USA occupied the resources ,These militants have killed thousand of civilian and proudly calling this "Islamic " which is so dangerous for deen ,Todays Militants are not involve in dawah and their intention is to get the power and revenge .Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:19 #
@netengr: I believe, you are confusing a lot of facts. I also believe, you are not well informed about reality. You'v been deceived by biased media representation of what is actually happening on the ground
I will stop here. There's no point in discussing something, when your info is incorrectPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:24 #
tell me the correct information Mr .I do not watch TV i am not sure what media tells about this ,Tel me what you think instead of saying "you do not not but I know "Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:27 #
not only is it incorrect, he is confusing two things.
there is a difference between offensive and defensive jihad.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:27 #
1) 13 years of Dawah of Eman there was not war even kuffaar become against Muslims
Do you know that Allah had not commanded at that time, meaning the ayat for jihad were not revealed! Sahaba requested few times, but Rasool-Allah forbade them.
2) Rasool Allah SAW Migrated instead of fighting with them
Astaghfirullah, brother you just completely overlooked the actual reason of migration, the bayah uqbah sani.
I'll just stop here, you are just way too confused and mixing thing up.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:28 #
I am over looked ,I am influence by media bal bla please tel me the what you thing is the fact instead of pointing to mePosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:29 #
you either stay quite or support Baitullah Meshoud,s so called "jihad " which is totally haram according to Quran and Sunnah .
You do not use Quran and Hadees where you get benefitsPosted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:32 #
im not going to answer anything from what netengr said but i would like to mention one thing here.
its kind of shocking to see that people don't realize that the battle of Badr was an offense from the Muslims against the non-Muslims. as soon as the Prophet (SAW) established the first Islamic state in Medina, he started sending out expeditions against the non-Muslims, even before the battle of Badr.
prior to Badr, the Prophet (SAW) created an atmosphere of Jihad in Medina. He sent Hamzah to the seashore in the neighborhood of al-'Is at the head of thirty riders from the emigrants, with none of the helpers taking part. Hamzah
met Abu Jahl ibn Hisham with three hundred riders on the shore and was about to fight him when Majdi ibn ‘Amr al-Juhani intervened between them, causing the people to separate without fighting. The Messenger of Allah sent Muhammad ibn ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Harith with sixty riders from the Muhajireen, there not being a single one of the Ansar among them. He encountered Abu Sufyan at the head of more than two hundred riders in the valley of Rabigh. Again, no fighting took place except that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqas shot an arrow on that day. Allah’s Messenger r also sent Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqas with twenty riders towards Makkah, but they returned without fighting.
so it didn't start from Badr and certainly Badr was not in defense it was an offense (i can go into the details of that too but thats a topic for another day)Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:34 #
"you either stay quite or support Baitullah Meshoud,s so called "jihad " which is totally haram according to Quran and Sunnah."
that's exactly why i refrain from indulging in a discussion with netengr. his thoughts are always reactionary.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:36 #
To my fellow Pakistanis the point for this thread was and is
Discussion period. I do not take any thing personal, views are meant to be heard.This thread is not about ME..Here is some more **** bit for readers who have EYES.By the way for all desi who consider AMERICA their ALLAH..SO far 1.5 million dead in iraq. Afghanistan Pakistan you people know it daily killings drones,That is exceptable to our brown slaves? Jesus died for these crimes right?Can you people imagine these muslims were JEWS??OR CHRISTIANS??killing muslims has become acceptable to people??
What is Jihad?
Jihad means struggling in the name of Allah Almighty. Jihad doesn't always mean a war or battle. Any mean for spreading Islam and the Truth, or to fight for what is right and condemn what is wrong (such as fighting the bad and helping the oppressed even if they were not Muslims) are considered Jihad.
I am doing Jihad right now by maintaining my web site, because it is a tool that can be used for spreading Islam and the Truth. And because it is also a Media tool, it could be used for fighting for what is right and condemning what is wrong.
Islam is not a religion of arms and swords! When Allah Almighty revealed the Noble Quran to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and Muhammad became the Messenger of GOD Almighty, Muhammad had to spread Islam to 365 Pagan Arab Tribes. These tribes showed so much hostility toward the Muslims and Islam, and have imposed so many battles against the Muslims.
Later, when Islam was the religion of what we call today Saudi Arabia, and the 365 Pagan Arab tribes mostly converted to Islam, the Muslims had to yet face another type of challenge.
The Nuclear Soviet Union and the United States of America of our days were the Great Empires of the Christian Romans and the Pagan Persians. If you know geography and history well enough, then you would see that the Muslims were trapped between those two big Super Powers.
Hostility and Battles from those two Empires were imposed upon the Muslims. For instance, when our Prophet peace be upon him sent his messenger to "Kisrah", the Emperor of Persia, introducing Islam to him, Kisrah ordered for the Muslims' Messenger to be executed!
Back then, like today, this was considered a coward act. It was the Persians who showed the hostility toward the Muslims and declared the many battles against Islam.
The Christian Romans weren't any better. For instance, in one of their many battles against the Muslims is when they saw the threat to their religion in the Middle East, the King "Herucl", sent out an army of 100,000 men and ordered them to go to "Madina" in what we call today Saudi Arabia to destroy Islam once and for all.
The Muslims were not stable yet at that time, and they only sent out an army of 3,000 men at that time to drive the Christian Romans away from Madina. The battle was named "The battle of Mo'ta" and it took place in Mo'ta, Jordan today.
The Muslims' plan was to meet the Christian Romans far away from Madina, and to have them stray away from Madina. The army of 3,000 men was successful enough to fight the Christian Romans for few days and then to pull away from the battle and headed South of Jordan. The Romans strayed away from Madina and the small army of the Muslims was able to run away through the mountains. More than half of the 3,000 Muslims however were killed in this operation.
The point is that Islam didn't spread by sword with much choice. The wars were imposed upon the Muslims. The Muslims didn't ask for those wars.
Islam is a Religion of Love and Peace and Forgiveness
Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"
We need to get out of american yoke of slavery my people.
Mullaayaah defending Pakistan is in my blood while you sleep and snore I defend.Smart men will understan..Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:38 #
quite a lot of work for netengr, that will keep him busy for a while. got to go now.
don't miss my gift above.Posted 5 years ago on 26 Aug 2009 22:45 #
What you had pointed out in your post on Migration is a gross misrepresentation of the ground realities. I know you are into sufism and bralvism but thats your choice and you are free to believe and choose what you wish but for the sake of your Imam dont distort the Islamic History.
Reasons for Migration ? well during every 6-7 Muharram the shias will let you know why there was a need for migration. Ask them they dont have doubts about it.
So why do you?Posted 5 years ago on 27 Aug 2009 0:49 #
rather than claiming that I know nothing about Islam, I would have appreciated if you would have explained to me how my forementioned opinion is wrong?
if you think im wrong, id appreciate if you talk it through than put me down with negligence, thanks. i am open to learning new things by the way.
i have a feeling you are trying to tell me your take on Islam is final... perhaps you might be a molvi.Posted 5 years ago on 27 Aug 2009 3:21 #
Ken Russell - Why I'm Thankful for George W. Bush
"We will close with and engage the enemy at a time and place of our choosing."Posted 5 years ago on 27 Aug 2009 19:43 #
@JW: They forget that they are on the wrong side. They are taking side with "injustice". They aren't doing anyone any service. They are digging a deep hole for themselves. I hope ALLAH gives us the oppertunity to show them, what is right and what is wrong.
They only think they gave a fatal blow to their new enemy in Iraq.
ALLAH ALMIGHTY is the best of planners. MASHALLAH, we will get stronger by the day, when we return back to Islam.
Their war tactics will INSHALLAH be of no match for an army of Muslims that will fight them for ALLAH ALMIGHTYPosted 5 years ago on 27 Aug 2009 22:12 #
It was such a nice thread, to ask a question 'Should Muslims have a common army'. Alas instead of discussing the ground realities to achieve such a goal that could effectively counter NATO if realized, members got distracted into controversal issues like clash of civilizations. Can Muslims have a common army? If yes, how? If No, than why no and why not?Posted 5 years ago on 28 Aug 2009 16:20 #
Can anyone suggest a good name for our future common muslim army?Posted 5 years ago on 28 Aug 2009 16:30 #
After the earthquack in Pakistan,the Goras helped a lot and stayed in Hilly ares of pakistan.They are fools because they dont know the people they have been helping,giving them jobs and green cards and citizenships are highly ungrateful ,people having a mind set of hatred only.Pakistanis love those who treat them as trash in middle eastern countries.pakistanis are against those countries where Pakistanis are members of Parliament,like Lord Nazir.Posted 5 years ago on 28 Aug 2009 18:10 #
If you call the Karachites Gora and the famously banned Jihadi group as GOra or the few NRPs working in Kashmir as Goras
Then you are spot on.Posted 5 years ago on 28 Aug 2009 18:32 #
No Muslim should make war with any innocent non-muslim. The citizens of non-muslim countries are innocent and therefore deserve our respect regardless of their religion, creed or life-style.
The persistent policy failures of the US, EU and any other allied govt. is a different story and is culpable to be answerable for their effect on Muslims suffering, dying and being abused.
Like Migel and others have stated before, we know the different types of Jihad and no Muslim can negate the usability or justification of Jihad by those Muslims that have been invaded and plundered (Afgh, Palest, Iraq, Chech, several African states and Pak to name but a few).
But like baba_ji has been saying in all his posts, do not sweep every non-muslim with one brush stroke of hatred. It is unbecoming of a Muslim. A Muslim is wise to those to which he can show his wrath for Allah's sake and those to which his mercy is deserved, i.e any non-muslim that is a potential revert.... please think about this point.
Moreover, we know that it is our own lack of pro-active measures to keep our houses in order that has enabled the enemy to infiltrate so deep and cause us so much harm. We are to blame for much of our demise similtaneous to foreign aggression.Posted 5 years ago on 28 Aug 2009 19:03 #
@Oriel: I have noted this of "baba_ji". He'll exaggerate the topic/statement(s), make everyone sympathetic with HIS point of view, and as a result defocus/take the discussion in a totally unwanted direction.
Look at this topic's title again. It says, to have a collective army against "crusaders", which also means, those people who are busy in military / offensive actions against Muslims, those who are forcing them to fight us, ALL of those people who have grouped up against Muslims.
There's a crystal clear distinction between a crusader, one that starts war against Muslims, and peaceful people. Why are you blurring this crystal clear distinction?!?!!! and making a big thing out of it when everyone is NOT talking about that?!?!!!
Also note the trait of non-Muslim nations as Islam tells it. Islam says, they ALL become one when they fight against Islam/Muslims
Let me leave it at that, for you ALL to ponder onPosted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 8:18 #
Narrated Samara bin Jundub, Allah's Messenger (s.a.w.) said:
"Anybody (from among the Muslims) who meets, gathers together, lives, and stays with a Mushrik, and agrees to his ways, opinions, etc. and enjoys his living with him (Mushrik) then he (that Muslim) is like him (Mushrik)" [Sunan Abu Dawud - The Book of Jihad]
babaji says we must be thankful to West as they give us "immigration". The current trend of immigration to demographically starved West is not due to any feeling of magnanimity but a pure economic and materialistic pursuit that requires lots of heads as consumers to meet the demands of West's round the clock production of goods. Due to decling birth rates and a impending catastrophic demographic meltdown they are forced to accept immigration for their survival. After all it was the Europeans that colonised and settled in three continents North and South Americas, Australia and wiped out the native populations of Indians in Americas to aborigines in Australia. The Black slaves were used as labor for their plantations and industry and hence survived their genocidal tactics.
The human beings can settle where ever they want to hunt green pastures but should also remember the fate of millions who were trampled and uprooted. They should also be aware that they are realizing their dreamland on the lands that contain the bones and fragments of millions of oppressed indigenous natives that were exterminated.Posted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 10:21 #
West try to help us in different ways and than having a label of kind master try to suck our resources and chase their national Interests....
Giving green Cards allowing to work in west helping in earth quake,funding ppl through NGO's are all types of
TAREEQA-E-WARDAT of west.....Posted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 10:46 #
"I have noted this of "baba_ji". He'll exaggerate the topic/statement(s), make everyone sympathetic with HIS point of view, and as a result defocus/take the discussion in a totally unwanted direction"...
It maybe totally unwanted in your opinion bhai haris, but in a discussion all participants are free to air their views without being heckled down.
The message I am trying to convey is that yes, an army of Muslims united is what our lands need for defensive jihad against the non-muslim aggressors, from which ever part of the planet they originate. but, don't you or any other hot-blooded male forget, that even in time of war, jihad, struggle we as Muslims are bound to keep a sense of mercy and balance in our dealings and thought. their are rules even in war. If the non-muslim does not adhere to them, we cannot expect it, as Muslims our ideals are higher therefore our adherence to Allah's regulations must be stronger also.
My main problem with shouting "death to the infidel!" is that if we do not show mercy even at our darkest hour, then who will remain upon which we are duty bound to give dawah? In my eyes every non-muslim in our vicinity is a potential revert to Islam.
We can fight the invading armies, we can fight the policy makers, but we cannot fight the citizens of non-muslim countries.
As a Muslim I can hate the act of a non-muslim, I can fight against the aggression and persecution of a non-Muslim, but I cannot hate a non-Muslim for not having the belief in the Shahadah.
Islam = Humanity.
Am I clearer now?Posted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 12:01 #
@Oriel: I agree 100%. I clarified on the same.
I said -> We (i.e., Muslims), will NOT!!! be going to kill ALL non-Muslims.
I said, we will be going ONLY after those among them, who declare war with Muslims
WE!! us!! me included!! , we WILL!!! abide by Islam's principles. I will NOT! take matters out of Islam's boundaries or divert from its waysPosted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 12:34 #
We have reached an agreement. How satisfying :-)Posted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 13:00 #
How much the words are nice here but fact will never change..
If some one thinks that democracy in west or nonmuslim country is fraud and the govt results out of such democracy is never representative of a single voter.If voters dont have have any say to bring down the govt.If each and every individual paying taxes never contributed to the main stream..
Than no ordinary man/women shud be the target....
if the ordinary ppl are not addressed again and again by the Mujahideen abt cruelty and opression of their govts.Than yes they are innocent..shud not be targeted..
Their is no compulsion abt ordinary ppl,not to be targeted..Yes as a policy some time orders not to kill, may be issued...Upon the agreement of the Jihad leadership...Posted 5 years ago on 29 Aug 2009 19:25 #
The armies of the Muslims will unite when we will get rid of this false nation state system withdraw from cowardly institution 'UN' that is one of the GREAT tools of western hegemony and re-establish THE ISLAMIC KHILAFAH. Besides UN is the most "UNDEMOCRACTIC" world institution ever, where if the whole body is on one side and a veto power is on the other, the veto can make the resolution null and void; can any of the democrats here enlighten us about this hidden kind of democracy, please???Posted 5 years ago on 30 Aug 2009 9:51 #
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