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Sleeping with the Enemy

(30 posts)
  1. Khyber Pass Saga; where Betrayal is the Norm

    By A Khokar

    The mysterious and magical Indo-Pak land of dazzling beauty and exotic charms is fenced in the north by the towering snow caped heights of Himalayas stretched for thousands of miles from west to east. These towering heights, where have proved to be the defenders against any intruders from the north; they are also the source of the life in this land. The mountains abundantly bear the water for irrigation to maintain the livelihood in the vast spread fertile Plains down below. The cold iced waters gushing out from the snow capped mountains comes forth roaring through the gorges and when it travels down in wide stretched plains of subcontinents; its flow becomes more calm. Indus, Ganges and Yamuna are the main rivers with many more ever flowing small rivers and tributaries to irrigate the sun scorched fields with the blue sky above usually bearing gentle winds laden with the monsoon like rains. Rivers are the life line for millions before this that they finally drain into Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea . Most of the people remain engaged in their profession as farming and its related industries. The land gives them abundance of food and various cash crops to maintain their lively hood and they remain contended. Nature has rarely been harsh punishing them except its angry rivers occasionally inundating the plains with the over spill of excessive water in monsoon season. The land is known as melting pot of many old civilizations of the world. It is particularly enriched with the old Buddhist and Vedic (Hindu) mythologies till such time that Islam dawned here with the final message of divinely light, knowledge and wisdom. The culture thus is full of mysteries and miracles. Present day, the land part of Pakistan is mostly populated with Muslims.

    Right from the ancient, the exotic charm, peace-n-plenty, the wealth and opulence; the serenity blessed by the God Almighty kneaded into its soils and its winds loaded with rains of boon and bounty have been the source of attraction for many foreign adventuress from the lands not so blessed, who came here in from its north-west to invade this land primarily with the aim to pillage and plunder. Turks, Persian being the next door neighbours of India were the first to come and oppress the Indian docile masses and for centuries they kept extorting various taxes especially from Harappa (Indus valley) and Rajasthan. In older Eastern Europe, Aryans from across Iran and Caspian Sea were attracted to Turks and Persian wealth extorting ideas. They being the better artisan that they excelled Iranian and Turks in use of Iron and metals; in between 600 -700 BC they started landing in India and there after kept on exploiting the masses here for centuries. They were followed by Alexander the great. Later came, the Mahmoud of Ghazna, then Mongols and the Mogul who made India their second home till the time British’s came disguised as traders. The new intruder; British evicted all the previous land holders and ruled India for a long time.

    Most of the intruders have been descending in India, downhill from the various passes of Hindu Kush mountain ranges in the west. The Pir sir pass in Swat, the Khyber Pass, Touchy, Gomel and Bolan passes have been adopted as the ways in. The lands of present day Pakistan in its length and breadth inherit these passages carving the passages to India. There are great stories that every hill, the meadows and the riverine along these passes that carry our past, have to tell. There are also numerous other stories of so called cunning guardian of these passes in the hills. When the Intruders started pouring in; over the time on finding it that they could not put a stop on the passing invaders; the so called guardian started assisting them on their way to India on price. They also ambushed the same invaders for their share when they came back after plundering and laden with booty. Here the Afghan, the Pathans and Baluch that they still carry their arms slinging down from their shoulders and pose themselves as they are still on the same old watch. The people living at the mouth of these passes down the hill in plateaus of Pothawar, in Jhung area and the tribes like Muries, Bugtis, Jamalis and Baluch; they all played active roles in relation to the frequent manoeuvring of invaders. There are long pertinent stories of their deceit and betrayal for paltry gains waged against their own people and emirates on their part that how they were easily lured in and assisted the powerful invaders. As how, they assisted in the know of the land, the intelligence about people for paltry gains and most of the times they used to abet the intruders in fear and for sparing their lives. people from this area have also been joining the invaders armies as their profession to show their loyalties and reap rewards. The invaders have never been shy in giving them the names as marshal race or king makers. British were good at learning the lay of the land, the local history and psyche of the people. They treated the people most thoughtfully and hence ruled the subcontinent more fearlessly for long hundred fifty years.

    History tells us that from the times of Alexander (the great); the old Kamboja clans of present day Swat, Buner, Bajur and Kafiristan area were known as Massaga Fighters; they were the most ferocious people. They were known as the excellent horse breeders and expert cavalry men who often rented their cavalry services as mercenaries. The strong hold of Massaga at Pir sar pass held by invincible ‘Assascini tribes’ guarded the routes in to Ghandharian dynasty. It was the most difficult for any invader to conquer. In order to cross over; Alexander has to resort to the political stratagem and action of betrayals by luring in the opponents of Assascenis tribe commanding the forts. These mercenaries were used by Alexander to carry out a carnage to scale down all the defences. All the living soul; men, women and children were massacred, even who surrendered were also killed. It is said that during this Massaga debacle, after the death of their chieftain; women under the command of the Queen ’Cleophis (Kripa) also fought very bravely for their honour till last. Alexander monuments of victory and signs of betrayal of local mercenaries are still found in the area of Massaga and Ora. After a brutal conquering, Massaga area was renamed with the Greek name; Aoronos (a legendry Greek lake). No wonder present day, Pakistan has to put up with such like mercenaries and hypocrites having the same old lineament and their same act of treason; which is still prevalent and commonly persuade in the area by the group of people like Tehrik e Taliban. The acts of treason, greed and betrayal toward their mother land for sake of perks and largess are common practices as ever. For them the only change is that flags of invaders keep on changing.

    But the time has been fleeting by. The last century could see some two major world wars but after WWII and the subsequent retreat of Colonial Powers mainly from Asia and Africa; the prospect of worldly outlook has changed altogether. Especially at the turn of this century; a new era has emerged and prospect of life and culture is seen indulging in a phenomenal transformation. Presently, it is an era of people who possess ‘Energy resources’ and bear the knowledge and ability to ‘Innovate’. The nations with the innovations and technology and with the ability to transfer it into military might may stay above the rest. The nations with the monopoly of these traits have also learnt how to spread their wings to achieve their hegemony in the lands with energy resources. The tactful planning, brinkman ship, covert actions and deceit and deception are their enabling tools. US the sole super power and other western powers are exercising their mighty muscles for subjugation of Middle Eastern nations and Central Asia. The entire Middle East the source of world prime energy oil and gas has been turned into mega US military bases. Up in the north of Middle East; the country of Afghanistan, the cross link land of energy transportation between Middle Eat and central Asia is in full occupation of United States. Yet another country in the east of Afghanistan– Pakistan; the most strategically vantage land; for this land snooze are being tightened to bring it in US fold and turn into the world prime central command of United States. Pakistan may prove ‘a home away from home’ for United States. Its geographical proximity may also help USA to keep a check on the other emerging powers in this area like; China and India. As the current plans are unfolding; at least the Pakistanis next many generations are likely to see lot of turmoil, destruction, massacre and anarchy in their country. If wisdom is not shown and appropriate remedial measures are not under taken; the future is certainly looking very bleak.

    In the North Western Frontier of Pakistan; this is an open secret that on our western borders in the ‘Global war against Terror’, the ISI of Pakistan has met a colossal defeat in terms of breach of its intelligence defences, right in the face of superior manipulation by CIA. ISI plan are found totally compromised. Pakistan has failed in checking the CIA infiltration. Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan a brain child of CIA is successfully raised in FATA area with the CIA’s payouts of huge perks and sums pelted on the doors of medieval Mullahs who in return choose and agreed to topple and disintegrate Pakistan through spread of chaos and anarchy. Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan (TTP) has now grown into a monster on the ground and their cohorts are also seen influential in the government lobbies. No wonder; the enemy within—the Satan in priestly garbs are all out to take the Pakistan down. But in view of recent stern military actions being carried out in FATA area to retrieve the last grounds; there is a mark success and CIA plan are seen as frustrated and overturned. This Tehrik is sure in disarray. They have reached at the verge to surrender. Whereas the Pak Army action are timely, this is the sole duty of our great armed forces that these stooges must be eliminated once for all, lest they duck down for a while and re-emerge with punitive revenge when military retreats or reduces its intensity. There is a mark success in Bajur district but Military action in North and South Waziristan seems to be in pipe line for ’second phase’, where reportedly in a secret arrangement; US drone attacks are the prelude awaiting major military moves of Pak Army to eliminate Taliban and denounce (Al Qaeda) supporters and its presence. In order to gain a clear bill of health for Pakistan on the international scene,[1] Pak army is capable enough of restoring the lost grace and honour of this nation. God willing; once again Pakistan will be portrayed as a versatile Blue star nation.

    It is also a proven fact that India has always displayed her archery at every stage to see Pakistan disintegrated. CIA and India have previously created enough anarchy by fuelling the separatist movements in two Pakistani provinces i.e. in NWFP and Baluchistan. The prevalent chaos and turmoil in country also justify western case against Pakistan’s nuclear assets. This may also serve as pretext and prelude for US to move into Pakistan and occupy this land to serve her dreams of Imperialistic designs. But fact remains that the imminent threat to Pakistan’s security comes from Islamic terrorists breeding with in rather than from arch-rival India.

    Against all the odds; Pakistanis ought to be united into a compact mass. The power of evil working against Pakistan may also serve as a cohesive force that must bind us together that such like activity of human cohesiveness invariably destroys the power of evil. Enemy thinks that by hammering upon the mass they will be able to break it in fragments, but they only make it more dense and impermeable than it was before. These are the times; where history is testing…all of us. Pakistan and only Pakistan ought to be songs of our praise and prayers in our hearts. We only live; if Pakistan lives.
    ——————————-
    Love for all, Hatred for None

    Link to archive; http://www.adab-arz.co.uk/?p=74

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 11:10 #
  2. A distorted presentation of history and prehistory. All boils down to:

    'Pakistan has to put up with such like mercenaries and hypocrites having the same old lineament and their same act of treason; which is still prevalent and commonly persuade in the area by the group of people like Tehrik e Taliban.'

    How ever hard you try through long.......articles there always will be a distance among us. A Qadiyani trying to brain wash Muslims through these articles!

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 11:17 #
  3. Patriot as much as I was in agreement with your last posting, I beg to differ on this one. It is not Qadiyani brainwashing we Muslims have to fear. They are Pakistanis, after all. Let them have their say freely.

    We have only one enemy to fight and that is the West and their brainwashing on our people - and so few people on this blog speak up in that direction. They have attacked us (N.B. not the Qadiyanis). They are all that is most hateful in Allah Talha's eyes: hypocrites, idol worhsippers, warmongers, and, and, and. Everything wrong with our own Pakistan can be laid at their doorstep. I'll go even further: everything wrong with the world can be laid at their doorstep. So picking on Qadiyanis seems to me to be like shooting at sparrows when a vulture hovers above your head.

    Please not to take this amiss. Just to give it some thought. The West is the disease. In no way the Qadiyanis. And also keep some trust and faith in the steadfastness of Muslims as far as their religion is concerned. They are Allah's people. They will fight any attempt to convert them in any direction other than the one laid down in the Quran and Sunnah. But the West gets them to trod down the path of luxury and lies and therein lies their undoing.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 12:54 #
  4. Also, AK's article above is a good one, excellent even. And what he says there has been confirmed by many another Pakistani analyst of impeccable credentials. AK, I've read this article before on your blogsite and found it strikingly good then. Rereading it now, I find no cause to change my mind. Except, of course, my usual reservation about technology being the saviour of the world. Technology is but a series of gadgets. Anyone can construct them. Ideology not technology will save the world.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 13:01 #
  5. Patriot,
    What ever the reason;
    The worst thing could have been done to Ahmadies was that throw them out of the pale of Islam.

    You have done by means of second amendment of the constitution.

    Then was to degrade them to the end and ceased their rights to be a free citizen of Pakistan.

    That is done by Ordinance XX of 1984.

    Some thing more was also done vide certain PPC sections of 1986 Ordinanace and Ahmadies were subjected to death penalty if they were found simply behaving like Muslims; seen reading the Holy Quran; saying Asalamo Alaikum or found sending Daroud to Prophet Muhammad (saw).

    I can only say:
    Aap Ki apni adalat kee jiaay jo faisla
    Haan magar woh faisla; ous Akhree taqdeer ka

    But believe me; Ahmadies are more than happy that:

    Ous kay naam peh marain khana ab Ahzaz Humara
    Ais kissi kee yeh Izzat Aouqat naheen dekhi

    But one thing is there: which is unfortunate for some that; the right of being called a Pakistani could not be taken away from Ahmadies.

    Ironically; Both the maestros Z A Bhutto and Gen ziaul Haq; trying to become the Viva zapatas of Pakistan met their tragic ends; Other may also try; challenge is open to them. They are well come to do that.

    Any how: Please leave everything above aside at the moment as this is not the topic. We are discussing more pertinent thing which is the menace of extremisms. It has intruded in our society like parasite and this cancer is eroding the peace and sanctitiy of the nation fast.

    I have briefly tried to high light the back ground that how the people from certain area of our country for their paltry gains are forsaking their nationalism and seen becoming --------from would be patriots to cancerous parasites.

    Please leave your valued comments for beneift of all..
    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 16:03 #
  6. @patriot
    "How ever hard you try through long.......articles there always will be a distance among us. A Qadiyani trying to brain wash Muslims through these articles! "
    Qadyiyani or not, the aim is to hoodwink/manipulate indeed! But AK can't help being deceptive :)

    @Mirza ghalib
    "We have only one enemy to fight and that is the West and their brainwashing on our people...Please not to take this amiss. Just to give it some thought. The West is the disease. In no way the Qadiyanis."

    There is NO DOUBT in my mind (thanks to AK) that Qadiyanis are part and parcel of that very disease. They are the 'carriers' and with friends like these, we hardly need any enemies. I truly am surprised you are falling for his crap (no matter how many "another Pakistani analyst of impeccable credentials" "confirmed" it.) Do you seriously believe this bit (the whole flowery passage is but a window dressing -- the lure -- for this 'bit'):

    It is also a proven fact that India has always displayed her archery at every stage to see Pakistan disintegrated. CIA and India have previously created enough anarchy by fuelling the separatist movements in two Pakistani provinces i.e. in NWFP and Baluchistan. The prevalent chaos and turmoil in country also justify western case against Pakistan’s nuclear assets. This may also serve as pretext and prelude for US to move into Pakistan and occupy this land to serve her dreams of Imperialistic designs. But fact remains that the imminent threat to Pakistan’s security comes from Islamic terrorists breeding with in rather than from arch-rival India.

    Do you really??

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 16:40 #
  7. Come on, nota, not that last bit. What I've been told by the people in this field I respect most is that the whole of the Swat and Fata area had fallen into the hands of the RAW/Mossad/CIA people and the Punkhtoons there were being trained to fight against Pakistan. I can't say anything about the FATA agencies. I never went there. I do know the Swat for having lived there for several years. It was always awash in strange Westerners with some excuse or other for their presence. So that bore out my own experience of the area. But the Pathans I knew then would have died rather than break their loyalty to friend or country. And they were impervious to the lure of money. What happened after I left Swat I cannot say, of course. So what is your take on the TTP?

    The Qadiyanis are Pakistanis, I stick to that point, whatever anyone may say, nota. Each Pakistani, even the traitors, happens to be my concern. I have no biological links to anyone in the criminal West. I'm not responsible for them. They and they alone are my enemies. Wasting our bullets on the Qadiyanis is a stupid move on our part. Let us attack the West with all we've got. That might finally make sense. Otherwise, otherwise let's just leave it upto God to decide where Pakistan will finally land.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 17:00 #
  8. @Nota
    India is our enemy since Pakistan came into being and always active to back stab us.

    Sugar coated words at the most but a good look will reveal a clever move to imprint our minds by saying that ISI has been compromised, demoralizing and scaring us further by bringing up deaths of Bhutto and Zia as a consequence of being patriotic, sympathizing with non Muslims like if they behave as Muslims in disguise it should be allowed. Perhaps he assumes non Muslims as free citizen of Pakistan have a right to a Muslim title and practices so that they be confused with and thought of as Muslims.

    He even attacks our religious scholars as 'satans in priestly garbs', favors violence by counting on our armed forces to eliminate them.
    Now is this not enough to smell a RAT who is working on an assignment to change opinions and influence minds.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 17:16 #
  9. Patriot you and nota attach too much importance to what influence AK can have on anyone on this blog. You think most people would have the patience even to go through the long texts he writes? Whatever, I find both of you sectarian beyond words. And blind to all the brainwashing we have picked up from the west and which spells real death for us as a Muslim people. Any scapegoat will do. But never look the West straight in the eyes and say: You are the devil in our midst. How can intelligent people refuse to see what's what? It beats me.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 17:35 #
  10. shimatoree
    Member

    @ AK-
    The stuff that happened to the Qadianis- and I mean the legal stuff during Bhutto's time and then Zia's time is a REACTION to what the Qadiani's founder did.

    If you wnat to be different- OK- the Bhutto and Zia decisions made you different for good. Now you squeel because you say you want to belong. If you wish to belong- simple solution-

    DENOUNCE your so-called false prophet and you are in.

    But you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

    And please keep in mind that all the Qadianis from countries other than Pakistan label themselves as "muslim" on their passports and thus go to Saudi Arabia where they would not be allowed in the holy places if the Saudis knew who they were

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 17:50 #
  11. @Mirza Ghalib
    I find both of you sectarian beyond words. And blind to all the brainwashing we have picked up from the west and which spells real death for us as a Muslim people. Any scapegoat will do. But never look the West straight in the eyes and say: You are the devil in our midst. How can intelligent people refuse to see what's what? It beats me.

    Total ****, sorry to say. Take a day off and think about what you are saying. Bloody amazing how wrongly you have interpreted what i have said. DISAPPOINTING to the max!!!!

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 17:51 #
  12. Sorry nota. Shall do what you say. Reread and take a day off to reflect on what you said. But sorry as of now for having been offensive and stupid.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 18:35 #
  13. Mirza Ghalib
    P.S. btw: I DO NOT -- and NEVER WILL -- consider Qadiyanis as a "sect". EVER! AND even if the 18th amendment overturns Bhutto's of Zia's decisions, it won't mean a damn thing. There are man's laws (ever changing and meaningless and amendable) and there are God's laws (never changing and and for ALL times)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 18:46 #
  14. Ah good, is that what's bothering you, nota. I'm so so sorry. The word I should have used was not sectarian, but minority groups. Of course I dont't consider them a Muslim sect either. I've said this over and over again in different contexts. That Islam requires so little of us to become Muslims, and even that little the Qadiyanis are not willing to fulfil. I have said over and over again that their religion is wholly a syncretic version of a religion, a little bit of everything thrown in to pretend to be all things to all men. And you think I have forgotten their link to the British Raj? So I'm awfully sorry for using the wrong word there.

    I repeat, however, one last time that my position is (and most people don't bother to read what I say either. No wonder!): My/our main enemy is not the Qadiyanis. My/our main enemy is .., but that you can fill in yourself. They have brainwashed us into utter slavery. And their religious weapon is: atheism. Well, never mind. I listen to the Qadiyanis and talk to them because they are Pakistanis. That is all. It is also my right to treat all human beings as human beings first and foremost, even Westerners.

    Yet another thing: I have always denied any form of Islamic terrorism since the word go. I have always insisted any and all terrorism we encounter is State terrorism.

    And now if we could just put all this behind us perhaps? I have screamed at AK myself on many occasions. If occasionally I find he says something not wholly unlike anything I believe in, I also say so. And then there's the matter of conversion. We'll convert them to our faith long before even one of us will budge towards theirs. That is an absolute given.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 19:11 #
  15. @Mirza Ghalib
    "is that what's bothering you"

    No not just that. Your statement that "I find both of you sectarian beyond words." was totally ridiculous. What did you base that on? And worse than that your statement that I was "blind to all the brainwashing we have picked up from the west and which spells real death for us as a Muslim people". I don't know how you came up with that!

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 19:26 #
  16. Dear Shimatoree and Friends,

    One is amazed to see that how certain thing are being stuck to Ahmadiyya belief that they are not even remotely connected to it.Ahmadiyya belief may be a bone of contention for all of us but the situ demands that at least we know that what their belief is?

    1. First and foremost is that Ahmadies they believe that they are the very party of Muslims which was prophesied by our beloved Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) and he said that in later days all the other parties (all 72 sects) of Muslims will stand defunct and rejected except the one---who can be called a true Muslims party of Hazbollah. Ahmadies they claim that they are the one that party which Rasul e karim (saw) has prophesised here.

    2. Ahmadies they believe that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian (as) is the same Promised Messiah and Mehdi , the guided one whose advent is fore told by the Holy prophet (saw) and is awaited by the Muslims as well as the Christians--- as the second coming of Jesus (as)of Nazareth.

    Whether you believe it or not; this is in Toto the claim of Ahmadeyya--- rest is all just divisive conjuncture induced by the foes.

    You may also like to know that how our national assembly announced the verdict when Ahmadies were thrown out of the pale of Islam.

    Although it was a political ploy of religious parties to win a political clout and it was said by the National assembly that after their due deliberation; they have unanimously come to this conclusion that--- as all the 72 sects of Islam in Pakistan they stand united on this that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is an imposter and a false prophet; so Ahmadiyya is here by singled out and is thrown out of pale of Islam.

    Funny very funny---- 72 sects announcing themselves on one side and this single party (Ahmadiyya) on the other side---- what does it mean.... shekari khud hee aa gia apnay Jaal main---? ---Isn’t it?

    Now let's look in the light of the hadiths of Rasul e karim (saw)....where he said that there will be left only one party who would be real Muslims with real Eemaan (i.e.Ahmadiyya)---- the single party of the Later days that even Eemaan would have left this planet and ascended to Pleiades (somewhere to the stars and heavens) this party will bring it back. The Holy Prophet (saw) also said about the Ulema of the time; that they will be the worst of the species (makhlooq) found on the earth; Fitnas will emerge from among them and same will befall back on them.

    Our perception, our mind set and slandering and enchanting Ahmadies as Kafir etc may be one thing but you may see that here singling them out and counting them as 73rd party is in fact declaring them the only True Muslim party, even by National assembly.

    Even this move also goes in favour of Ahmadies. Ahmadies are thankful to the national assembly.

    This has been the history of all the Prophets of Allah that not only Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as) was rejected by present day Muslims but Jesus (as) was also rejected on the same terms by Israelites.

    And God Almighty says; no prophet ever came that he was mocked and rejected by his people... Don’t you think---we may be doing the same here.

    This is what which requires deep pondering and our soul searching.
    Sorry for the long post and thanks for the patience please.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 21:00 #
  17. @AK
    Any thing new here? No! Just the same old cr@p that no one is buying. Same LIES over and over again. You might be trying to emulate Goebbels ("If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth") but IT AIN'T gonna work. ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 21:43 #
  18. nota, I said once that I was the only person who really hated the west on this blog, didn't I? You go after the qadianis, fine by me. I'll leave you to get on with it in peace. Though I may deplore this intolerance, no further interference from me need anyone fear. I'll go after my own enemies in my own fashion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 21:56 #
  19. Nota,
    We are discussing here Qadiniayat (Ahmadiyya) for some time now;

    you have been the active participant in it and I have duly been replying almost everybody but in every next post, especially you (yourself)have been asking the same questions time and again.

    If the questions will be repeated; so will be the replies.

    Any how; Shimatoori has asked first time; he deserves a reply.

    So cool it man

    (Thand rakh meeri jan)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 22:58 #
  20. shimatoree
    Member

    AK
    I am grateful to you for taking the time and making the effort.
    The logic that because the Isarelites treated Jesus in a bad fashion somehow should apply to The case of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is to say the least very interesting.

    Though it is true that most societies are conservative to change but aside from religious perspective- the community is always conservative and resists change.
    Having said that- the problem with Qadianis( Ahmadiaya) is that they are what I would call an exclusive group.
    Yes they did accept the claim of Mirza Ghualm Ahmad that he was the Jesus that is supposed to return-(so called " Maseeh" Molood" ) but they also declared everyone else who did not buy into their dogma as not a good Muslim. When
    Jesus will come , he will come as Jesus , the son of Maryam and not as someone else born of some other woman and sired by another man

    I must end my comments by saying that the fundamental problem the Qadianis have is that they falsly claim that a prophet can come after the Last Prophet of Islam and if Ghuklam Ahmad had one iota of common sense- he would have recognized that this will not fly. Oh yes you can convert a few here and there-( Just look at the suicide bombers) but to expect that the entire Muslim Ummah will acept- it cannot happen and will not happen.

    I will at the very end raise the one question- why do they not declare themselves Qadianis everywhere they go including Saudi Arabia or Iran or Turkey instead of passing as Muslims-( while hiding Qadianiyat).

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jun 2010 23:25 #
  21. Shimatoori,
    You have raised very interesting questions. (I have reframed them)

    Q 1.Why must qadiani call themselves Muslims especially when they visit Saudi Arabia etc?
    A: Well Qadiyani; they claim that they are Muslim and no one may take that right away from them. If you may read in between the lines (previous reply) you will find that by declaring Ahmadiyya 73rd jammat by national assembly---- they in fact have declared that from now onward Ahmadiyya being 73rd jammah is the only Jammat in Pakistan who are supposedly, the Muslims of the Later days(Refer to the sayings of the Holy Prophet (saw))

    Q 2. Ahmadies ‘they also declare everyone else who did not buy into their dogma as not a good Muslim’.
    A. Ahmadiyya do not indulge in this sort of rigmarole but they do believe that after the advent of Massieh Maoud, the Mehdi, the guided on; all others; especially the Muslims have to come forward and accept their Mehdi.
    Yes they do consider all other Muslims as; they have not accepted the divine truth of their Mehdi yet. They keep on praying for them.

    Q 3. The promised Massiah to come has to be the old Israelite reformer prophet; Jesus (as).
    A. Name of Jesus given to the promised Messiah is just metaphorical which is meant that Promised messiah will come as reformer in Islam as Jesus was for 12 tribes of Israelite. God has repeatedly addressed Jesus as the prophet of Israelites. I do understand that there is myth since afloat in Muslim world that probably Jesus will come again. That is wrong. And that is why the God Almighty had to send the reformer to correct and rest the sail and the oar of Muslim Ummah and sift and set-aside the crooked myths.

    Q4. Jammat e Ahmadiyya is?

    A. Jammat e Ahmadiyya is universal jammat and after the migration of its Head quarters from Pakistan; jammat has progressed many folds and is spread in some 157 countries of the world. Its strength is in millions.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 0:30 #
  22. I have watched the Ahmadi/Qadiani/Mirzai folks very closely for many years now. I think there is nothing much with them. They are simply a confused bunch. They are losing groud everywhere, not because of external forces/prpaganda, but by their own standing on falsehood.

    "Innal batila kan'a zahooqa"

    I am not worried at all for what may come from them but I do care about them in the sense that they have lost the precious guidance of Islam. I pray for them:

    "Rabbana la tuzigh quloobana baad'a is hadaitana"

    They don't know what they are missing. I just hope they repent and come back.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 1:39 #
  23. pirbodla
    Member

    @ Aay Khokhar
    I appreciate your dedication for your faith, but I cannot approve that you propagate it concealing all the follies of you mentor. There may be some reason for you to overlook the fooleries of Mirza Sahib, but you cannot expect others to wink at such tomfooleries.
    Under another topic, which is now under religious section, you denied a failed prophesy of Mirza Sahib which is in black and white. Here is an extract from a new modified version of TAGHKIRAH:
    [November 6–7, 1907
    “Translation: [Arabic] I give you glad tiding of a pure and righteous son. Lord, bestow on me pure progeny. I give you good news of a son whose name will be Yahya (It seems that this means: one who will live long.). coati……”] p 981.

    You denied this claim in these words: “Dear pirbodla and Friends, Following is the extract from the revelation; where Yahya (as) name has been mentioned. This was in February 1884 and not of 1907 that you said.Book of ‘Tadhkirah’----(English rendering of the divine revelations. First published in UK 1976)……Extract; page 153February 15, 1884
    Today I received the revelation from Allah the Noble: [Arabic] O Yahya [John] hold fast to this Book. Hold fast to it and be not afraid. We shall restore to it its original qualities.
    [Publishers]”

    In reply to you claim I had posted the same with more detail under the ‘Faith and Religion’ section. but still waiting for your answer. I hope you would care to clarify you position, otherwise you cannot blame us for calling impostor to Mirza Sahib.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 3:42 #
  24. Pirbodla,
    I apologise that I could not attend to that particular post of your in F&R.

    It is matter of time zone that I live.

    I will look into that.

    Anyhow; if you find some short comings in my explanations that shall be my personal short comings and not of Ahmadiyya ; where there is no dearth of knowledge, the logic and reasoning.

    You may link: http://www.alislam.org/

    Where there is a sea of knowledge which is making waves.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 6:09 #
  25. Pirbodla.

    The promised Messiah (as) had written a book ‘Barheen e Ahmadiyya’ in respect of the Holy Prophet and Glory of Islam which drew lot of repercussion especially from Hindus and Christians. There upon after a solitude of some 40 days he issued a leaf let on 20 February 1886 revealing that God almighty informed him of a child, who would born to him and would assist greatly in the service of Islam. (This is the son in reference to revelation discussed above and Promised Messiah says that it was repeated/ reminded many a times as it is mentioned in book Tadhkiah Page 981 with later dates)

    Eventually Hazrat Basher ud Din Mahmud Ahmed (who later became Khalifahtul Messiah the second) was born to him on 12 January 1889. So definitely the revelation is earlier dated (as I said earlier) which has also been mentioned on later days like in 1907 few months before the demise of the promised Messiah (as). This son was of 17 years of age on the demise of promised Messiah (as) in 1908.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 8:08 #
  26. Discussion on this thread is Qadiyaniat vs Islam. Faith and Religion Forum is the right forum to discuss such topics.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 8:15 #
  27. Gujjar Talwar,

    I hope we believe in a living God and that we have not sent him on retirement (naozbillah). Religion of Islam is Allah’s domain and Allah clearly says that:
    [Al-Haqqah-69:43--45] It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. ()“And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,() We would surely have seized him by the right hand”,() And then surely We would have severed his life-artery”. So no one must go worried and may not try to take the matter of God in their own hands.

    I can also gauge the desperation involved that by accepting Imam e zaman, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as); one has to shed lot many masks that peoples in our religious circles are wearing now a days. It certainly may prove pain full for them to part with the Dream castles built around them. They are enjoying a monopoly in religion and in their heart of hearts; they rule the peoples.

    This religious circle certainly may not like that their dreams are subjected to any shattering soon.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 8:31 #
  28. Semirza,

    Thanks for pointing out. I have already requested that member must avoid deviating from the discussion but every time this is dragged to some other tracks of Islam vs. Qadiniat.

    All the member once again are kindly requested to please come out with their valued comment on the subject of our home grown extremism which is the theme of the post that the cancerous parasite of extremism is eating up our nation fast.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 8:41 #
  29. Aay Khokar,

    "I can also gauge the desperation involved that by accepting Imam e zaman, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed ---"

    Now, what is this Imam e Azam thing? Isn't Mirza Jee your prophet? Or is he Isa or what? How many portfolios does he have? Or you simply don't know what you believe in.

    And about your living God, what are the do's and don'ts for him. I know you don't allow him to keep anyone alive without your permission? And you allow him to trick the people by saying Isa, while meaning Mirza.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 11:24 #
  30. Gujjar tawar,

    Principally this has been decided that all the discussion pertaining religion be discussed in ‘Religion and faith section’. You may come over there and your answer is lying there.
    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/ahmadiyya-movement-in-islam-heretic-or-a-scapegoat?replies=36#post-157773

    Thanks

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jun 2010 17:37 #

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