PKPolitics Discuss » Social and Cultural Issues

Sources of "liberal fascism" / Mulla hate..

(51 posts)
  1. bsobaid
    Member

    I see following origins of "liberal fascism", as Hamid Mir calls it.

    1)Arrogance: how dare you criticise me you ghareeb aadmi? I know everything because I speak flawless english, studied in A-Levels and foreign universities and dont know how to write urdu..

    2)Guilt: because deep inside they know their activities are wrong and they feel uncomfortable if someone points those out but they dont want to mend their ways

    3)West kee ghulami: either because they are mental slaves or they get salary to do so

    4)Ignorance: what these moulvi people talk about. What is this religious crap? It does not make any sense! none of it!

    5)Social issues: Moulvi hazrat are usually unfit and untrained for today's challenges. If given power they become qabza group and dream of becoming khalifa with no end to their greed. In old times, ulema knew prevailing society and would use their head and wisdom, like any sociologist or psychiatrist etc to present solutions instead of rutto totay moulvi hazrat of today.

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 16:50 #
  2. sochopakistani
    Member

    @Bsboard, congratulation for this thesis that can grant you PHD from Jamia hafza. Also, please share your thesis about why these great pious molana hazrat dont offer prayers together..

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 16:56 #
  3. 2 mullah together means murghi haram. Ye hamid mir is world's greatest rocket scientist and bsobaid is his assistant and steals his ideas of super duper intelligence.

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 17:21 #
  4. kami1232
    Member

    فاشسٹوں کو مرچیں لگ گئیں حالانکہ عبید بھائی تو خود پکے سچے بی بی کے چاہنے والے تہہ دل سے لبرل ہیں۔

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 17:53 #
  5. @ bsobaid
    Guilt: because deep inside they know their activities are wrong and they feel uncomfortable if someone points those out but they dont want to mend their ways

    The best point of your post. It is good to see member like you active again on this blog.

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 18:03 #
  6. bsobaid
    Member

    Thanks Pakistani,

    I like the responses so far, keep them coming!

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 18:08 #
  7. @bsobaid
    I agree 100% here, you have spoken my mind here. Well this is another extreme we are now facing, and may face it at its worst some time later.
    It came in steps

    - muslims are going bad
    - even mullah is not good, moderates are better
    - mullah is the root of all evil, liberals are a lot better, even non muslims are better
    - we hate mullahs, liberals, non muslims are the real muslims

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 18:12 #
  8. sochopakistani
    Member

    I never knew that Pakistani society can be divided into conservative or liberals. this is not our cup of tea. I think better division would be
    *Ultra conservative 15%
    *Medium Conservative 80%
    *Mild conservative 5%

    Liberalism has nothing to do with Pakistanis.

    Posted 7 months ago on 26 Oct 2011 18:30 #
  9. One of the reasons for plight of today's Pakistani society is conservatism. In my view, conservatism is a crime against humanity and it promotes inequality and backwardness. It is imperative to separate State and religion if a country like ours has to survive in this day and age.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 0:36 #
  10. bsobaid
    Member

    "separate State and religion"

    yeh naara filmstar Anjuman ka woh baarish wala gaana hai jiss ko ab muft kay ticket mein bhi koi nahi dekhta..

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 4:08 #
  11. Adonis
    Member

    I think the more accurate term would be "Secular fascism". No liberal, by definition, can be fascist. Unfortunately in Pakistan, most of the people who call themselves liberals have in fact nothing to do with liberalism and are pure secular fascists.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 6:25 #
  12. stingingnettle
    Member

    Fascism in any form is reprehensible.

    Even Hamid Mir's Fascism is unacceptable when he thinks he as a right to describe a section of Pakistani community as liberal fascists.

    The greatest fears of all Pakistanis; Secularism and Liberalism. To combine the two you get something unspeakable.

    Do Pakistanis and very specifically mullahs actually understand the difference between an atheists and a secularist? A very very safe bet, NO. It's a bit like a child's fear of the dark.

    Hamid Mir's job is to ask difficult and piercing questions when he has got politicians in front of him on his show, this has yet to do with any degree of commitment and determination.

    Most of Pakistan now speaks BEBU (Broken English Broken Urdu).? Whose fault is that?

    Most of Pakistan is waiting for divine intervention to solve their problems? Whose fault might that be?

    Most of Pakistan's rich do not pay taxes? Whose fault is that?

    Most of Pakistan's children live in deprivations and destitution? Where does the guilt lie for that?

    Most of Pakistan's Mullahs are feeding us high potency dose of religious other-worldism and fatalism. Whose fault might that be?

    Most of the system's in Pakistan are lubricated by rampant corruption. Any takers for the shame?

    So is it liberal fascism to speak up against it? Do you have to belong to a class or a sect or a location to have the right to speak up about it?

    The biggest source of Mullah hate is simply their on inability to produce anything remotely acceptable in terms of social behaviour despite the captive audience of impressionable converted they are gifted five times a day and especially every Friday. With two mosques per street, how do you explain such spectacular failure of a system?

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 11:35 #
  13. جناب ڈنگ مارنے والے اور بھڑکانے والے صاحب

    مجھے ذرا یہ بتا دیجئے کہہ پاکستان کی تمام اعلیٰ تعلیمی درسگاہوں ، تمام نجی تعلیمی اداروں ، فوج سے وابستہ تعلیمی اداروں ، قومی اور صوبائی اسمبلیوں میں بیٹھے ہوۓ اراکین ، فوج اور نوکر شاہی ، وزارت خارجہ اور ذرائع ابلاغ کے اداروں میں سے کتنے ملا کے قبضے میں ہیں ، پاکستان بننے سے لیکر آج تک پاکستان کی نام نہاد قومی سلامتی کی حکمت عملی یا خارجہ حکمت عملی ، تعلیمی حکمت عملی ، اقتصادی حکمت عملی ، سیاسی حکمت عملی ، فوج کی دفاعی ہے جارحانہ حکمت عملی میں ملا کا کتنا حصہ ہے اور ملا کیسے اسکو بدلنے پر قادر ہے اور کیا ملا کو ان ساری حکمت عملیوں کی بھنک بھی ہوتی ہے

    کیا امریکہ کا ساتھ دینے کی حکمت عملی مشرف نے چیچوکی ملیاں کے دور دراز گاؤں میں بیٹھے ملا سے پوچھ کر بنائی تھی ، کیا اے لیول اور دوسری مغربی تعلیم تعلیمی حکمت عملی بنانے والوں نے مولانا الیاس قادری سے پوچھ کر بنائی تھیں

    کیا نجی جامعات کی اجازت اور ان میں پڑھائے جانے والے مضامین حکومت نے ( جو کہہ ہمیشہ سے لبرل سیکولر لوگوں کے ہاتھ میں ہے ( مولانا طارق جمیل سے پوچھ کر کیے تھے

    یہ لبرل فسطائیوں کا گھسا پٹا جملہ اور بودی دلیل ہے کہہ ہمارے تمام مسائل کی وجہ اور جڑ ملا ہے

    جناب ملا کے ہاتھ میں تو کبھی بھی اس ملک خداداد کی حکومت نہی رہی ، حکومت تو ہمیشہ لبرل اور سیکولر لوگوں نے کی ہے ، مجھے ایک بھی شخص کا بتا دیں جو ملا ہو اور وہ اس ملک پر حکمران رہا ہو اور اس نے سارے فیصلے خود کیے ہوں

    یہ لبرل اور سیکولر لوگوں کا فیشن ہے کہہ اپنی تمام فاش غلطیوں ، کمیوں ، کوتاہیوں ، اللے تللوں ، کا سارا ملبہ ملا پر ڈال دو اور خود دودھ کے نہائے ہوۓ بن کر ہر الزام سے بری الذمہ ہو جاؤ

    اسی چیز کا نام لبرل فسطائی پن ہے

    ف ج

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 12:21 #
  14. stingingnettle
    Member

    Janab Fatalist-Justifer_(very)Pak haasti,

    "
    جھے ذرا یہ بتا دیجئے کہہ پاکستان کی تمام اعلیٰ تعلیمی درسگاہوں " تمام نجی تعلیمی اداروں ، فوج سے وابستہ تعلیمی اداروں ، قومی اور صوبائی اسمبلیوں میں بیٹھے ہوۓ اراکین ، فوج اور نوکر شاہی ، وزارت خارجہ اور ذرائع ابلاغ کے اداروں میں سے کتنے ملا کے قبضے میں ہیں ، پاکستان بننے سے لیکر آج تک پاکستان کی نام نہاد قومی سلامتی کی حکمت عملی یا خارجہ حکمت عملی ، تعلیمی حکمت عملی ، اقتصادی حکمت عملی ، سیاسی حکمت عملی ، فوج کی دفاعی ہے جارحانہ حکمت عملی میں ملا کا کتنا حصہ ہے اور ملا کیسے اسکو بدلنے پر قادر ہے اور کیا ملا کو ان ساری حکمت عملیوں کی بھنک بھی ہوتی ہے
    "

    Mercifully the answer to the above paragraph is NONE. And I thank God for that. Had Mullahs been any of the places you mention, we wouldn't have a Pakistan to talk about.

    To remind you what I said;

    "The biggest source of Mullah hate is simply their on inability to produce anything remotely acceptable in terms of social behaviour despite the captive audience of impressionable converted they are gifted five times a day and especially every Friday. With two mosques per street, how do you explain such spectacular failure of a system?"

    I make a reference to social behaviour NOT policy doctrine. Determining policy doctrine is NOT the job of religious fatalist but that of a properly elected democratic government. The job of a completely apolitical army is to defend the borders and not run businesses and schools. How do explain all the social ills, Israel, America, Musharraf, Zardari....liberals, secularists.......BUT just not the people who claim to be the guardians of the nations morality, mullahs. Mullah is just a talking shop and he says stuff that has little connect or relevance to what the people are under-going. The Mullah is stuck in a place, time and method that even a 200 old will not understand.

    Like a good fatalist, you excuse yourself by declaring nothing has been or is in your hands therefore don't blame the Mullahs.

    You have every right to be angry with the Government for poor governance and you have every right to blame the military for it's meddling in civilian affairs. What you cannot do is to exonerate the poor mullah for lacking any understanding of the age and it's problems.

    How many mosques will open their doors to the teaching of Maths and science when they are not being used for prayers? That should help the poor, shouldn't it? So they can do something after all? I do not know of any mosques that is being used to teach children anything remotely academic. Instead what they do very successfully is knock out the love of learning and critical thinking from their heads so they can, like you, blame everyone else but themselves.

    In short; everyone do their own job; The failures of the mullahs is the greatest because even with God on their side, and a captive audience, they can still not deliver a society where perhaps people might pay their taxes and not steal electricity.

    Don't tell me you learn much from a Jumma Khutba?

    You have little understanding of liberals or seculars, this is obvious from you post. If the liberals or the seculars had anything to do with policy matter, you would disassociate state from religion and definitely schools would be place for learning academic stuff and not for getting one version of religious bigotry thrust down young people's throats.

    There is not much pure or Pak about Pakistan, and we don't know what is causing the stink? Ironic isn't it.

    Mullahs in power! Just the thought makes me shudder, perhaps you would like to put me in the liberal-secular low life box? That would be easiest thing to do. We like easy when we are a Fatalist Justifier and Pak at the same time.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 13:11 #
  15. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Religious affairs of our society were badly spoiled during Zia's regime. Religious extremism was boosted for the Afghan war. A lot of deviant religious elements were funded for the so called Jihad. American President Ronald Regan himself introduced Afghan commanders to the world press as 'the heroes of the century' in a White House reception. Sixty billion dollars poured into Pakistan for the Soviet Afghan war. Our poor nation is still paying back those 60 billions in terms of terrorism and mass killings inside our society.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 13:32 #
  16. bsobaid
    Member

    Couple of things:

    First we have to understand Moulvi hazrat originally acted as a kammi of chaudhry sahab. Chaudhry sahab will use moulana sahab to settle scores and fruther his agenda when need be. The same trend remained and moulvi hazrat sided with the powerful class of army and establishment and ruling elite. It was during Zia times when moulvi hazrat themselves saw big money and started dreaming of becoming khalifa themselves rather than being used as a b***h of powerful.

    Mein nay aik muarraka-tul-aara post likhee thee "moulvi Inc." koi 2-3 saal pehlay laikin woh admin kee qeenchi kee zadd mein aagaee.

    Having said all this, moulvi hazrat were originally small part of the bigger problem of feudalism and ruling elite but the people who opposed them mostly did so for the wrong reasons I listed in my original post.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 13:48 #
  17. جناب ڈنگ مارنے والے اور بھڑکانے والے صاحب

    میں نے تو جناب آپ کے نام کا اردو میں ترجمہ لکھا تھا لیکن آپ تو ذاتیات پر ہی اتر آئے ہیں، خیر منڈ کھنڈ جماعت کے اول فول بکتے بچوں سے اور توقع بھی کیا کی جا سکتی ہے

    خیر

    ایک طرف تو آپ یہ فرما رہے ہیں کہہ ملاؤں کا قومی حکمت عملی بنانے میں کوئی کردار نہیں ہونا لیکن اسی سانس میں آپ ان کو سماجی رویوں کا نگران اور ذمہ دار بھی ٹھہرا رہے ہیں

    جناب ، سماجی رویے قومی حکمت عملی کی ضمنی پیدا وار ہوتے ہیں ، جو کچھ سیاسی ، معاشی ، عدالتی ، تعلیمی حکمت عملیاں حکومت یا بالادست طبقے بناتے ہیں ، معاشرتی اور سماجی رویے ان ہی کی وجہ سے پیدا ہوتے ہیں اور پروان چڑھتے ہیں ، اگر ملک کا صدر یا وزیر اعظم سیاسی اختیارات کا ناجائز استمعال کرے گا یا قانون کی بالادستی کو نہیں مانے گا ، یا ملک میں تقسیم اور تفریق پیدا کرنے والا تعلیمی نظام نافذ کرے گا ، یا ایسی معاشی حکمت عملی نافذ کرے گا جس سے امیر امیر تر اور غریب غریب تر ہوتے جائیں گیں تو معاشرے میں پیدا ہونے والی معاشرتی اور سماجی برائیوں کا الزام آپ چار جماعتیں پڑھے ہوۓ ملا کے سر نہیں منڈھ سکتے ، ان سماجی اور معاشرتی برائیوں کی ذمہ داری بھی اسی سیکولر لبرل اشرافیہ کو قبول کرنا ہو گی

    ویسے بھی ملا نے کیا معاشرتی اور سماجی برائیوں کو دور کرنے کا ٹھیکہ لیا ہوا ہے یا آپ لوگوں نے زندگی کے ان شعبوں کو ملا کو آوٹ سورس کر دیا ہے

    اور ہاں آخر میں ، آپ نے تو شائد صرف لبرل اور سیکولر ازم کا نام سنا ہے ، میں نے نا صرف ان موضوعات کو تفصیل میں پڑھا ہوا ہے بلکہ آپ جیسے نادانوں کو پڑھایا بھی ہوا ہے ،

    اسلئے مونہہ کھولنے سے پہلے یہ معلوم کر لینا چاہئے کہہ بندہ کس سے مخاطب ہے ، ویسے آپ جیسے نقلی ، سائبر دنیا کے شہسواروں کے ہوتے ہوۓ مسلم لیگ نون کو کسی فکر کرنے کی کوئی ضرورت نہیں اور عمران خان کو نادان دوستوں کی فکر نہیں کرنی چاہئے

    اور ویسے آپ کیا مرحوم و مغفور حضرت مولانا ڈل عرف چوہدھری حشمت المعروف سوچ کا بدمعاش تو نہیں ہیں
    ف ج

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 16:08 #
  18. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    $me shakes his head .. (about your knowledge of what goes on in Pakistan)

    @stingingnettle: You have much to learn

    --------------------------------------------------------

    Yes, those who subscribe to secularism, they "claim" state and DEEN (for Islam) / religion (for non-Muslims) are to be separate.

    No one needs to shove you in any group. Its your own;

    (1) decisions
    (2) actions

    that give you away, that automatically render you to be part and parcel of one or the other.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    If you claim to be a Muslim, then you subscribe to the;

    (1) way of life
    (2) code of conduct
    (3) standards
    (4) principles
    (5) guidelines
    (6) set of rules
    (7) set of laws

    that's been put forward by ALLAH ALMIGHTY, by Islam.

    In Islam, there is no separation between state and DEEN.

    You are welcome to do your own research into Islam and bring forth arguments in support of the notion your raising.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 16:22 #
  19. حارث خان جی السلام و علیکم

    کیا بات ہے ، شادی کے بعد تو بالکل ہی غائب ہو گئے ، کچھ وقت یہاں کیلئے بھی نکال لیا کریں ، لیکن بھابی سے پوچھ کر اور ان کی اجازت سے

    :) :) :)

    ف ج

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 16:27 #
  20. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @stingingnettle: The more you'll live the daily life in Pakistan, the more evidence you'll find each day, its the common man's own;

    (1) decisions
    (2) actions

    that are the cause of his/her strife. Be them as an individual or as a collective. This includes people belonging to all classes.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    MULLAH has called upon the common man of Pakistan for;

    (1) struggle
    (2) struggle for revolution

    as per Islam's standards, since Pakistan was created. Its the common man of Pakistan who is not responding to his call for struggle for revolution for the last 60+ years.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    It is not the fault of the MULLAH that the common man of Pakistan is;

    (1) making the wrong decisions
    (2) taking the wrong actions

    repeatedly. Why should MULLAH be blamed for the wrong decisions, wrong actions of the common man ?

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 16:30 #
  21. bsobaid
    Member

    Ideally, state and deen can be one and the same...but practically it is a high risk.

    Deen is such a powerful tool if given to someone can be lethally misused.

    Deen can allow a ruler to declare halal and haram i-e destiny of all people is given in the hand of a person.

    These two can only work together in a democratic setup where parliament decides.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 16:32 #
  22. stingingnettle
    Member

    Janab Fascist-Jaamti_(very)Pakeeza Shaksiat,

    I only translated your ID into proper English too; you mistook it to be an attack on your person. One thing is for certain, your translation skills particularly poor especially when you do not use a dictionary, but then the mentality and the party you represent makes is all understandable.

    Try not to translate the Quran into any language, judging by your skills you will end up committing ‘gunah e kabira’. Just let people who know the lingo do the translation.
    No body is dumb enough to ask the Mullah to do anything remotely national or significant. It is best that the mullahs of Pakistan stay put in whatever century they are stuck in and let other people screw up the country. The military and the political class are going a great job without the input of the mullahs.

    Going by your comment, I am not sure what exactly is the role of the mullahs in Pakistan. Perhaps just organising salat. I don’t mind that.

    I can safely guess that you think that liberalism and secularism grow on trees. Perhaps reading outside your comfort zone might help. Take a risk, live dangerously, read something that was not specifically written to cement over your solid beliefs.

    To reform Pakistan is the job of the politicians. Yes we have yet to have a good crop but we don’t need to do meanwhile is let mullahs loose on anything remotely constitutional.

    And yes, when I meet a liberal secular in Lahore or anywhere in Pakistan, I will remember to shake their hand.

    Start a conversation with sarcasm and you get the same shite back. Try and remember this.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 19:49 #
  23. stingingnettle
    Member

    Hariskhan;

    W-A-S

    "$me shakes his head .. (about your knowledge of what goes on in Pakistan)"

    "@stingingnettle: You have much to learn"

    I can see you have not given up your highly patronising and self-righteous ways, dripping of course in piety.

    I am painfully aware that ONLY you know everything about Pakistan and only you have learnt everything there is to learn. I might even die her in Lahore but that would not be good enough to know the country I call my own.

    "If you claim to be a Muslim, then you subscribe to the;"

    Then what I subscribe to is a business between me and God. You have nothing to say about it just like I have nothing to say about how you define your religiosity. What you do as part of your faith, with the four walls of your home or your mosque is your and only your business.

    The biggest lie told and continue to be told is that there exist this grand unified version (or vision) of Islam that will bring happiness, justice and prosperity to all the ummah. To give you just a minor example, the shias and sunnis don't even pray in the same mosque let alone sharing a common vision. The Wahabi version thinks every but them is a slacker and scum not fit enough to be called a muslim, the Brvelvis, the Deobandis, Salafists etc

    Religion is a personal matter, citizenship and education are communal ones.

    A state protects all religions and one state religion protects itself as has been evident in Pakistan. If mullahs could have their way they would declare everyone kafir except themselves.

    You are right, it's not totally mullah's fault that we are in such dire straits but the mullah's inability to connect and do their job properly with a captive audience is inexcusable. Included in the national failure is our school system, our politicians, business people, our military and all the helpless aawam. The biggest culprit is our national psyche, might is always right.

    Mullah has been trying to make us believe that we can only do the right thing because of fear of hell or the promise of paradise. This clearly does not work. Should we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

    Be as religious as you like, bring up your children exactly the way you like, just don't impose your version and vision on others.

    The greatest revolution of Islam was that it freed mankind from the tyranny of the holy man, the priest etc, it was the first religion to give direct access to God to every human without even the need of a prayer mat let alone a building. The mullah has been trying to drag us back into dark ages by trying to make us believe that he know the way to God.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 20:23 #
  24. bsobaid
    Member

    Your Excellency Sting,

    "Religion is a personal matter, citizenship and education are communal ones."

    It is partly true. Many common laws are based on religion, so it does enter the public sphere. However when it comes to basic necessities and well-being of awam, it is an areligious matter.

    Secondly, a national crisis manifests itself in all walks of life, similarly when a nation progresses, it progresses in all spheres. If you notice, for example, China has not only excelled economically but they also won olympics 2 or 3 times in a row and I was reading in nytimes I think about a year ago, China has surpassed US in new inventions made every year. Same applies to the matter we are discussing here. This very important institution was given in the hands of incompetent people and hence the outcome.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 20:54 #
  25. bsobaid
    Member

    @sting, dont get mad at Haris bhai, yeh Haris Bhai kaa apna shtyle hai!!

    Here is a somewhat related thread from past...

    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/mystery-solved-our-inaction-rise-of-religion-and-moral-degradation

    Sting said, "Mullah has been trying to make us believe that we can only do the right thing because of fear of hell or the promise of paradise. This clearly does not work. Should we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do?"

    How do know what is right?

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 21:05 #
  26. stingingnettle
    Member

    bsobaid;

    "Your Excellency Sting"

    I can laugh at this light-hearted pun. Fair play to you.

    Serious matters at hand;

    "Many common laws are based on religion, so it does enter the public sphere"

    Yes, perhaps, or you could read it the other way round, many religions are based on common laws, or common sense laws.

    An eclectic society picks up good ideas from every where not just from religious doctrine.

    "However when it comes to basic necessities and well-being of awam, it is an areligious matter."

    Yes, spot on right, you have my full agreement on this.

    "This very important institution was given in the hands of incompetent people and hence the outcome."

    You speak about China as a success story before the above comment. China made progress keeping state firmly away from religion and still does. You cannot run a diesel car on petrol. This is the problem with mixing religion with state, they are not meant to work together whether the users are competent or incompetent. You can have a state religion but that is not the same as the highly dangerous mix of constitution and religion. That is just lethal. You will end up making various constitutional declarations to satisfy the whims one version of a religion.

    A secular society is not a godless society, it is simply a society where people have a private relationship with their God or gods.

    A liberal society once again is not a society where promiscuity is promoted but where there is a high level of tolerance for differing opinions and way of life.

    People in Pakistan always confuse the above two with the dreaded......shall I say it......ok....atheism.

    You write in your second comment;

    "How do know what is right?"

    Now this is a brilliant question. If I can be honest with you, I don't really know the answer to this especially for some very complex problems but for the simple day to day matters all we need is the community to agree on some rules;

    A very ordinary example; If the community agrees that we must stop at red light on an intersection then we must do so not out of fear or for the lure of a reward but simply because the community has agreed this to be the right thing to do. So when you hit a red light at an intersection at 2 a.m. and absolutely no one is there to watch you, you stop because it is the 'right' thing to do. We Pakistanis only seem to understand the language of fear or reward and that is a huge problem.

    People may choose to rely on their religion for complex matters of existence, by all means seek solace and answers from religion.

    I patronise no one and I will be patronised by no one. This is a simple rule I write by. I am far too imperfect to be patronising towards anyone and I expect others are too. One day people like Hariskhan will understand this too. It's not a question of style, it is a question of mentality.

    Thank you for you comments BSOBAID

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 21:47 #
  27. bsobaid
    Member

    Thank you for your response Sting my Master!

    "keeping state firmly away from religion"

    Sir, I dont think China kept it this away. Their religion (communism) is deep rooted in the government and political system. Far more than we have it here. for your info

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/world/asia/china-imposes-new-limits-on-entertainment-and-bloggers.html?_r=1&hpw

    Sir, you need to elaborate on private relationship with god.

    Pakistani is an Islamic Republic and this means no laws are made in violation of islamic principals. This is in complete contrast to the definition of secularism. Yes, government can be secular and should be secular in carrying out its duties but state is not.

    I am not sure if the concept of secularims even applies to islam as technically and originally religion is not an institution unlike in West where there was a Church. This idea of religion as an institution is creeping into our society but it was not a natural occurance but a manufactured phenomenon. Only if awam can understand the power of religion and stop getting fooled in the name of religion, we should be fine.

    In my opinion, as government is a secular institution, votes in the name of islam should be prohibited but for all practical purposes it is a vague and unimplementable idea.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 22:12 #
  28. stingingnettle
    Member

    BSOBAID

    "Thank you for your response Sting my Master!"

    Luke the force is with you but the force is weak. You must learn form the Jedi master, Obi-Wan Kenobi. The the force will be strong. I think.

    Communism is NOT a religion no matter how much you stretch the definition. So I am afraid we will have to differ on this point.

    "Pakistani is an Islamic Republic and this means no laws are made in violation of islamic principals. This is in complete contrast to the definition of secularism. Yes, government can be secular and should be secular in carrying out its duties but state is not."

    This would suggest that Pakistan is only for muslims (which type, I do not know) and only muslims live in Pakistan. So what we complained the Hindu majority of united India was going to do to us had we stayed together, we end up doing to our own citizens.

    I quote from a speech of the founding father of Pakistan Quaid e Azam;

    "In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis."

    My objection is about Mullahs meddling in politics and trying to turn Pakistan into a constitutional theocracy. Pakistan should not have anti-Islamic laws and neither should it have laws that discriminate against other minorities. Being a country for Muslims is not the same as an Islamic theocracy which is what the religious right wants.

    Anyway, on this note, Luke, I leave you to play with your Lightsaber. May the force be with you.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 22:58 #
  29. stingingnettle
    Member

    BSOBAID

    " you need to elaborate on private relationship with god."

    What you believe, how you believe and how you practice your belief is a matter between you and your God. The has no right to tell you how to do it, when to do or where to do it.

    As long as you follow the agreed laws of the land, you might be playing Ludo for your religion, no one should care or ask.

    In Islam; you only have to reply for your own deeds and no one else can put in a good word for you.

    Hence all the responsibility for your actions is yours. I am talking about actions which do not contravene the law of the land (which I assume are non-theocratic) but require some kind of judgement on your part eg common temptations that flesh is heir to.

    Posted 7 months ago on 27 Oct 2011 23:17 #
  30. khanseena1
    Member

    @Sting

    Agree with you 100%, "religion is the opium of the people"

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 1:33 #
  31. SufiSoul
    Member

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 6:10 #
  32. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @stingingnettle: What's sarcasm ?

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 6:50 #
  33. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @stingingnettle:

    You are right, it's not totally mullah's fault that we are in such dire straits but the mullah's inability to connect and do their job properly with a captive audience is inexcusable.

    Why ?

    P.S. Multiple points here.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 7:35 #
  34. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @stingingnettle: You say;

    (1) MULLAH is not relevant to life of a human being in this day and age

    and yet, your the same one who says;

    (2) his inability to connect with man is inexcusable

    Why this "sharp" contrast ?

    I thought you, the crowd who subscribe to secularism, you said you can find your path to ALLAH ALMIGHTY on your own ?

    Why grovel "consistently" about MULLAH then ?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    (1) Are you unable to read Quran ?
    (2) Are you unable to adhere to Quran ?
    (3) What is stopping you from reading Quran ?
    (4) What's stopping you from adhering to the Quran ?
    (5) Do you "need" the MULLAH to;

    (a) teach you
    (b) describe to you
    (c) demonstrate to you

    what is in the Quran ?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    What's this grovelling "consistently" about MULLAH then ?

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 7:42 #
  35. gv
    Member

    @hk

    newsflash

    Grovel: 1. to humble oneself or act in an abject manner, as in great fearor utter servility.

    2. to lie or crawl with the face downward and the body
    prostrate, especially in abject humility, fear, etc.

    I think perhaps the word you are looking for is moaning/grumbling/griping?

    Grumble: 1. an expressionof discontent; complaint; unhappy murmur; 2. to murmur or mutter in discontent; complain sullenly.

    Moan: 1. to lament or bemoan: to moan one's fate.

    Gripe: 1. to complain naggingly or constantly; grumble.

    Ps. How's married life treating you?

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 10:53 #
  36. gv
    Member

    @stinging nettle:

    @stinging nettle

    Thank you for pointing out that :

    "A secular society is not a godless society, it is simply a society where people have a private relationship with their God or gods."

    "A liberal society once again is not a society where promiscuity is promoted but where there is a high level of tolerance for differing opinions and way of life."

    Unfortunately this concept seems too hard to digest for some of our furry friends here on this forum.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 11:14 #
  37. stingingnettle
    Member

    Hariskhan;

    "1) MULLAH is not relevant to life of a human being in this day and age

    and yet, your the same one who says;

    (2) his inability to connect with man is inexcusable

    Why this "sharp" contrast ?"

    Point (2) is the reason for point (1)

    "(1) Are you unable to read Quran ?
    (2) Are you unable to adhere to Quran ?
    (3) What is stopping you from reading Quran ?
    (4) What's stopping you from adhering to the Quran ?
    (5) Do you "need" the MULLAH to;

    (a) teach you
    (b) describe to you
    (c) demonstrate to you"

    What is stopping you from reading other texts in addition to the Quran? Old Testament, New Testament, Bhagvan Gita, Locke, Descarte, Darwin, Wittgenstein etc.? Why are you stopping your children from reading them?

    It is not a sense of insecurity, is it? Is that why you want to create a hermetically sealed society free from temptation and dissent?

    If you have the best system, let it compete in the free market of ideas; I am sure it will float on its own if it is the best. Give up fear, live dangerously.

    Mullah runs a restaurant called McReligion; you go there for a quick bite; the stuff is fast, cheap and tastes of nothing, then you return back to what you call life. Cook your own stuff from scratch.

    Read outside your comfort zone. If you already know the truth, then stop the search and stop listening to the mullah or to anyone for the same reason.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 11:22 #
  38. stingingnettle
    Member

    Hariskhan

    "@stingingnettle: What's sarcasm ?"

    You will have to do your own reading and come to your own conclusions about the meaning of 'sarcasm'.

    Just make sure you read from diverse sources.

    I am not here to give anyone a free education.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 11:28 #
  39. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: My bad. That's the word.

    Being a husband is not an easy job. So far, married life is "under control". I'v "managed" a few bush fires' here and there. I'm learning the balance between "critical decision making" and "taking care of someone", in order to keep the family afloat.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    @stingingnettle: When I said, you need to learn what goes on in Pakistan, I did not claim, I know it all. I said and meant, you need to do more learning.

    A case in point to demonstrate this, is the fact that you didn't or don't know;

    (1) Maths, sciences, even knowledge of computers is taught in religious schools

    (2) about what goes on in student life in PU

    yet, your talking about these issues as if you know it all.

    Your the one making the point about "I know it all", since you claim you don't "need" to learn further.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 12:34 #
  40. gv
    Member

    @hk

    yep them bush fires can be quite tiresome. Glad to see you're sorting it out early Best of luck with that. Hope to hear some good news regarding our future bhateejas/bheetjees in the near future :)

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 14:34 #
  41. toamin
    member

    بازیچہ اطفال ہے دنیا میرے آگے
    ہوتا ہے شب و روز تماشہ میرے آگے

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 15:38 #
  42. bsobaid
    Member

    Sting quoted Quaid's speech and I think an analysis of that speech will help answer some of the questions:

    Quaid said Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state but a democracy. He also said at other occassions that we will take guidance from Quran and Medina to put our system in place.

    Now there is a very important difference that can help answer many questions. Please focus on the word "theocratic". Quaid used this word in the context of western history where Church was an institution and Pope can decree halal and haram based on his understanding. This is a theocratic state which in essence is at odds with a democratic set up. However, a non-theocratic state does not mean a non-islamic state.

    Islam does not have a separate religious institution and this is precisely what Quaid wanted to say. He said that we will take guidance from Quran but the implementation and law making will be done in a democratic way by the elected people of Pakistan rather than a religious institution.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 16:09 #
  43. Dusky
    Member

    @hariskhan: "Being a husband is not an easy job. So far, married life is "under control". I'v "managed" a few bush fires' here and there. I'm learning the balance between "critical decision making" and "taking care of someone", in order to keep the family afloat."

    Remember the old mantra... "lose a battle to win the war". Bush fires are ok, but no arsonist role to play....

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 16:41 #
  44. bsobaid
    Member

    @Hairs et. al

    I think an hands off strategy does'nt work, infact it fails and comes back to bite you. I feel only way to keep the ship floating is to take charge of the things and be mindful of everyone's self esteem regardless of age and rishta.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 16:46 #
  45. Dusky
    Member

    @ Salam: Yara I think complete ghazal nicely sums up the discussion going on...

    بازیچہ اطفال ہے دنیا میرے آگے
    ہوتا ہے شب و روز تماشا میرے آگے

    اک کھیل ہے اورنگ سلیماں میرے نزدیک
    اک بات ہے اعجاز مسیحا مرے آگے

    جز نام نہیں صورت عالم مجھے منظور
    جزو ہم نہیں،ہستی اشیاء میرے آگے

    ہوتا ہے نہاں گرد میں صحرا مرے ہوتے
    گھستا ہے جبیں خاک پہ دریا مرے آگے

    مت پوچھ کیاحال ہےمیرا ترےپیچھے
    تو دیکھ کہ کیا رنگ ہے تیرا مرے آگے

    سچ کہتے ہو خودبین و خودآرا ہوں ، نہ کیوں ہوں
    بیٹھا ہے بت آئینہ سیما مرے آگے

    پھر دیکھئے انداز گل افشانی گفتار
    رکھ دے کوئی پیمانہ صہبا مرے آگے

    نفرت کا گماں گزرے ہے ، میں رشک سے گزرا
    کیوں کر کہوں لو نام نہ ان کا مرے آگے

    گو ہاتھ کو جنبش نہیں ، آنکھوں میں تو دم ہے
    رہنے دو ابھی ساغر و مینا میرے آگے

    ایماں مجھے روکے ہے تو کھینچے ہے مجھے کفر
    کعبہ مرے پیچھے ہے ، کلیسا مرے آگے

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 16:46 #
  46. bsobaid
    Member

    In honesty, the purpose was to know why many people say what they say about mulla (I hate to use this word)...

    From my observation it is usually based on 1 or a combination of 5 factors I listed.

    To be honest to ourselves, we all including myself when presenting a point of view must ask ourselves how was our opinion formed. Was it our original honest thinking or we had an agenda behind it or it was a result of peer pressure or it was because we are influenced or impressed by someone and we consider all about them as true and perfect.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 17:13 #
  47. stingingnettle
    Member

    Hariskhan;

    "(1) Maths, sciences, even knowledge of computers is taught in religious schools"

    I did not mention anywhere in, any of my post that a certain subject was being taught or not being taught. I especially have made NO references to religious schools. I have been talking about what is being taught and how and by whom. You need to read the whole discussion carefully. I am not getting in to the debate about what subjects religious schools are teaching. I have a view on that but that belongs to a different thread.

    "(2) about what goes on in student life in PU"

    I only have two degrees from PU. May be that is not enough to know a University as only you know PU the best.

    Feeling a little deflated? You should.

    "yet, your talking about these issues as if you know it all."

    I will only know it all if or when I become as good and as blinded as you.

    Now that I have demonstrated that your 'I know best', super-patronising 'style' does not seem to work, perhaps you need to dig out the old chestnut; 'you have no credibility'?

    Clearly, you are wasting my time now.

    Stop being self-righteous and patronising; it's all very last century. Live the McLife. Good old days of rhetorical crap are well and truly buried.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 21:54 #
  48. stingingnettle
    Member

    BSOBAID;

    I hope you haven't broken the lightsaber already!

    You write;

    "However, a non-theocratic state does not mean a non-islamic state."

    You are right about that. It's theocracy that Quaid e Azam didn't want. Is there such a thing as a non-Islamic state? Perhaps, by an Islamic state we mean where there is a majority of muslims eg Indonesia, Malaysia etc.

    You can have all the laws you like as long as they do not rub against the grain of Islam, that was the original idea of the founding father and his colleagues, I think.

    Under this definition you can possibly have more or less the American constitution without many changes except where there might be a reference to the Christian faith or God or the places in the US.

    As an example I quote the fourth Amendment from the Bill of Rights:

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    Anything anti-Islamic about that? I can go on and on.

    So yes, Pakistan can be an Islamic country, where the state does not tell people how to believe, what to believe, who is a Muslim or not and how to live their lives (within lawful boundaries). It is not for the state to tell people to stay away from sin and temptation because according to Islamic belief every one must answer for themselves. A hugely important element of personal responsibility.

    In short Pakistan does not have to be a theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia to have a good constitution and working Government. No to mullah rule but yes to the rule of law.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 22:32 #
  49. mangoman
    Blocked

    I would rather have rule of justice over rule of law (old and rotten British colonial law, crafted to suppress the local people of Indo-Pak sub-continent at that time, that is very much still in practice in today's Pakistan).

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 22:38 #
  50. stingingnettle
    Member

    Mangoman

    The British laws were powerful and were especially designed to control the population and sadly the raison d'etre for these laws have not changed and that is why the work a treat in the hands of our dear leaders.

    Everyone talks about making PTV independent so that it is not a propaganda tool for the ruling party but as soon as they come to power they realise what a brilliant source of free advertising it really is and hence.....well you know the rest.

    Same goes with depoliticising the hugely corrupt and bloated white-elephants.

    Posted 7 months ago on 28 Oct 2011 22:50 #

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