PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Swiss ban mosque minarets in surprise vote..Western democry for Muslims.

(131 posts)
  1. Migel9
    Member

    GENEVA – Swiss voters overwhelmingly approved a constitutional ban on minarets on Sunday, barring construction of the iconic mosque towers in a surprise vote that put Switzerland at the forefront of a European backlash against a growing Muslim population.

    Muslim groups in Switzerland and abroad condemned the vote as biased and anti-Islamic. Business groups said the decision hurt Switzerland's international standing and could damage relations with Muslim nations and wealthy investors who bank, travel and shop there.

    "The Swiss have failed to give a clear signal for diversity, freedom of religion and human rights," said Omar Al-Rawi, integration representative of the Islamic Denomination in Austria, which said its reaction was "grief and deep disappointment."

    The referendum by the nationalist Swiss People's Party labeled minarets as symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation. The initiative was approved 57.5 to 42.5 percent by some 2.67 million voters. Only four of the 26 cantons or states opposed the initiative, granting the double approval that makes it part of the Swiss constitution.

    Muslims comprise about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s and about one in 10 actively practices their religion, the government says.

    The country's four standing minarets, which won't be affected by the ban, do not traditionally broadcast the call to prayer outside their own buildings.

    The sponsors of the initiative provoked complaints of bias from local officials and human-rights group with campaign posters that showed minarets rising like missiles from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman. Backers said the growing Muslim population was straining the country "because Muslims don't just practice religion."

    "The minaret is a sign of political power and demand, comparable with whole-body covering by the burqa, tolerance of forced marriage and genital mutilation of girls," the sponsors said. They noted that Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has compared mosques to Islam's military barracks and called "the minarets our bayonets."

    Anxieties about growing Muslim minorities have rippled across Europe in recent years, leading to legal changes in some countries. There have been French moves to ban the full-length body covering known as the burqa. Some German states have introduced bans on head scarves for Muslim women teaching in public schools. Mosques and minaret construction projects in Sweden, France, Italy, Austria, Greece, Germany and Slovenia have been met by protests.

    But the Swiss ban in minarets, sponsored by the country's largest political party, was one of the most extreme reactions.

    "It's a sad day for freedom of religion," said Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a British youth organization. "A constitutional amendment that's targeted towards one religious community is discriminatory and abhorrent."

    He said he was concerned the decision could have reverberations in other European countries.

    Amnesty International said the vote violated freedom of religion and would probably be overturned by the Swiss supreme court or the European Court of Human Rights.

    The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government had spoken out strongly against the initiative but the government said it accepted the vote and would impose an immediate ban on minaret construction.

    It said that "Muslims in Switzerland are able to practice their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before." It took the unusual step of issuing its press release in Arabic as well as German, French, Italian and English.

    Sunday's results stood in stark contrast to opinion polls, last taken 10 days ago, that showed 37 percent supporting the proposal. Experts said before the vote that they feared Swiss had pretended during the polling that they opposed the ban because they didn't want to appear intolerant.

    "The sponsors of the ban have achieved something everyone wanted to prevent, and that is to influence and change the relations to Muslims and their social integration in a negative way," said Taner Hatipoglu, president of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Zurich. "Muslims indeed will not feel safe anymore."

    The People's Party has campaigned mainly unsuccessfully in previous years against immigrants with campaign posters showing white sheep kicking a black sheep off the Swiss flag and another with brown hands grabbing eagerly for Swiss passports.

    Geneva's main mosque was vandalized Thursday when someone threw a pot of pink paint at the entrance. Earlier this month, a vehicle with a loudspeaker drove through the area imitating a muezzin's call to prayer, and vandals damaged a mosaic when they threw cobblestones at the building.

    Associated Press Writers Shafika Mattar in Amman, Jordan, Eliane Engeler in Basel, Jennifer Quinn in London and Giovanni Fontana in Rome contributed to this report.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:08 #
  2. netengr
    blocked

    All these problems we are facing as muslim in the West now is due to the terrorism startted by Arabs ,before Muslims were free to practice and was even allowed to the church to make as Masjids ,Many church converted in to mosque in Europe .

    -------------------

    again if you want boycott Switzerland ,boycott swiss brands ,swiss watches ,swiss knife and swiss miss :) .ask all muslims to come back from "darul Kufr " .

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:14 #
  3. zia m
    Member

    Let Swiss open a church in Saudi Kingdom to show them that we are more tolerant than them.

    It does represent continued erosion of Western values.Every fairminded person should condemn this.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:21 #
  4. netengr
    blocked

    only those non practicing Muslims who listen mikle Jackson ,hip hop ,watch conspiracies on TV ,grown up with western life style worried about "muslim Ummah "

    Living in fear and phobia shows frustration and anger .A true muslims lives in Peace ,they achieve "hayat-e-Taiyaba " Peaceful life with no fear as promised in Quran ,and this will be archived by "a'amaal " .

    Kharab aamal Kharab halaath
    achay aamal achay halaath

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:37 #
  5. @netengr
    before Muslims were free to practice and was even allowed to the church to make as Masjids ,Many church converted in to mosque in Europe.
    -------------------------------
    You say many.Any examples?

    'ask all muslims to come back from "darul Kufr ".
    -------------------------------
    You are subtituting Swiss with 'darul Kufr'. May I know what is the real intention behind this innocent subtitution?

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:54 #
  6. yahya
    Member

    @Migel9:

    Are you in favour of allowing Christians to freely preach and convert in Pakistan?

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:54 #
  7. ucsher
    Member

    @migel9
    After reading your last post i am pretty sure that all those who have voted against the minarets have the same mentality as you, its just that they happen to be on the other side of your religious divide!

    its ironic that when you yourself can't even stand humans who differ in opinion with you and are asking for their ouster from the country, you at the same time are also castigating your own "payti brothers" who just happen to be non-muslims but at the end of the day have the same kind of mentality towards muslims as you have for hindus, christians or for non-muslims to be precise!

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 19:56 #
  8. Anonymous

    With all your hate (extremists) for US and Europe, do you expect a garland of roses from them?

    Responsibility lies with extremist hate mongers amongst us.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 20:01 #
  9. @Yahya
    Allow me to add in addition to Migel9:
    I had my early education through a missionary school, a Convent of Jesus and Mary.
    As a convent all the nuns were europeans. None were locals.
    They were free to preach as is obvious from the name 'a missionary school'.
    As a Roman Catholic school, it was managed through the local church and connected to Rome. Nuns were transferred on orders from Rome.
    Such schools are still active and popular in Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 20:03 #
  10. ucsher
    Member

    I am quite sure that if some how we manage to have MR.MIGEL 9 lose his memory and convince him that he is a christian with swiss nationality, he would do the same thing as all those extremist swiss did (in fact to be honest with you he might even try to rig the poles in favor of those islam haters)

    why: A person is an extremist by mentality not by his/her religion and while a religion can be changed, unfortunately the Mentality remains the same!)

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 20:06 #
  11. @Migel9
    Shall I say in spite of my advice to you, on several occasions you have not shown an iota of change!
    However I would advice you again. It would be nice if you change your choice of words/use of language that I and others find not only provocative but abusive.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 20:08 #
  12. netengr
    blocked

    @semirza

    I do not agree with the concept of "Darul Kufr " ,Darul Emaan" and "darul Harb " ,these concepts recently used by some Arab Ulema's and Jihadis .I have personally met people who support this concept they say all muslim should migrate from western world (darul kufr) to muslim world (darul emaan ) the same statement was also given by Osama last year ( may be myth for u ) .
    Darul Herb term is used by Jihadis in 90s when they used to say Kashimir and Afghanistan are "darul Harb " but not Pakistan ,Jihad is Farz on every one who lives in "darul Harb " but not farz for outsider .

    For me "sari Zameen Masjid banadi gaee hay " muslim should live where he think he can follow Islam easily either he lives in Muslim or non muslim country .

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 20:44 #
  13. netengr
    blocked

    سوئٹزرلینڈ میں چار لاکھ مسلمان لیکن صرف چار مینار ہیں

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 20:54 #
  14. @netengr
    You missed out where I had asked your attention and not what you are stating. A deliberate use of this compound word 'darul kufur' instead of as and being mentioned 'Swiss'is an attempt to initiate uncalledfor deviation of discussion from the original topic.
    The point is not to use such words that could/would be cause of diversion from the subject and reason to controversies.
    I hope you will realize this point.

    Secondly, you failed to come up with a single example of a church in europe that has been allowed to be used as a Mosque.Pls do not post such comments that are misleading and without backing evidence.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 21:36 #
  15. NNL
    member

    @Netengr

    Have you read the very First Hadith in the compilation of Imam Bukhari's Jami al Bukhari or as its commonly called Sahih Bukhari.

    It did be a nice read for you to understand it and then comment.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 21:42 #
  16. Migel9
    Member

    Mr SemirZa..My above comments were only for this SHAITAN INSTIGATOR of moronic discussions.aka NETENGRE...It was not me who started this idiotic argument in the first place..Micheal Jackson comment was directed at me,my reply was directed at this human waste period.

    I have my views regarding US Uk and all the western countries, I do not need your permission or any on else
    to express my viewpoint.

    In my book this man is a complete fraud always doing his FITNA a mole with no knowledge of any subject let alone Islam.

    All these problems we are facing as muslim in the West now is due to the terrorism startted by Arabs ,before Muslims were free to practice and was even allowed to the church to make as Masjids ,Many church converted in to mosque in Europe .Is this a muslim thought??muslims speaking??Fraud.

    Mr ucher??excuse me do i know u??mind your own business please.One secular at atime.

    In future I shall use much more flowery language semirza.
    I hope these PAKISTANIS on this site, very few FITNAGARS should refrain from making any snide remarks towards me.

    Only in a chat room these people are BRAVE.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 22:44 #
  17. Musician
    Member

    @Migel9

    "Itna ghussa naheen hai achha janaab
    zehan ke purzay kharaab hotey haein"

    "Aap jub laajawab hotey hein
    FITNAGAR kamyab hotey hein"

    Adaab

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Nov 2009 23:21 #
  18. Shock
    Members

    Guys leave Migel9 alone. He posts a lot of stuff like this, which nobody even bothers reading.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 1:21 #
  19. Migel9
    Member

    I am SHOCKED to hear such an elighten comment by an MIT, graduate.I am sorry to hear that you cannot read written word.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 1:57 #
  20. Sahnaz
    Member

    @Semirza r u familiar with Blue Mosque in istanbul. if u r thn u must knw it was a church before. well if u hv ever been to cyprus u can c many mosques which wr churches before.
    well if u want i can send u many examples but u wudnt able to send me a example if any famous church is on the ground of a mosque??

    wat haapnd in swiss is against basic human rights of people. people must be free to construct and design anything after the respective permissions frm authorities. we cant ban on particular design. i think it is happening due to islamphobia.
    as i m living in sydney now days i can understand it very well. people of other community c islam as a threat to humanity and think it is most barbaric religion on earth. we cant blame it to western media or us/nato fr everything. they r showing tht wat we r representing now.
    e.g. if a person from other community cm to pkpolitics he must get scared to c sm of posts where sm1 threaten to beheaded. y??
    we r nt same. mine thinking is different frm u or vice versa. if i cant impose my thinking on u how cud u thn?? so plz guyz try to give respect to others opinion.
    thnx

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 3:28 #
  21. shikra
    Blocked

    @ Sahnaz,
    Your words tell itself that you look to be a very sensible person.
    Unfortunately the Forum has been changed that a person who talks sense and tries to give any thought provoking positive suggestion is not welcome any more.
    Decency has been replaced by sarcastic remarks and personal assasination.
    Even very knowledgeable and non-prejudice Moderators are not respected properly.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 4:07 #
  22. shahzad1924
    member

    SubhanAllah, This is the hypocrisy of the west, their so called freedoms that dont apply when it comes to Islam.

    Indeed, what comes out of their mouths is indeed hatred and what they conceal in their hearts is far worse.

    What does a minaret have to do with extremism or terrorism!

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 5:05 #
  23. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Unless there is a perfectly sound reason, which isn't the case, I believe, this move by the Swiss government exposes its REAL intentions, its hate against Muslims in general to the entire world.

    I believe, we are increasingly watching examples of how tolerant western civilizations really are, we are watching crystal clear cracks in their front-side-image to the rest of the world. Even, if the Swiss state is Christian in nature, it still EXPOSES their reality to the rest of the world.

    For those who have cited the idea that Muslims are not tolerant of other religions practicing in Pakistan, they need to move around our land. They are obviously ignoring ground reality.

    This is western democracy for you. This is the tolerance of the western democracy for ALL those who love democracy, especially western democracy. This shows us the REAL face of western, European God-less nations.

    If they claim to be secular, THIS! EXPOSES the reality of how secular they REALLY are in-front of the entire world, not just in-front of the Muslim World.

    European nations, which have turned godless were once proud Christian flag bearers. Alas, they were taken over by the banksters 400 years ago and are still slaves to the same lot today.

    God-less nations run by secularism, often show their true colours. We Muslims should start noting these signs

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 5:57 #
  24. netengr
    blocked

    @Semirza

    here are the examples where the churches converted to the mosque
    also I remember in an interview Dr Ata ur rehman said there was place to pray in his university then he was allowed to use the part of the church for prayers /Namaz .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koca_Mustafa_Pasha_Mosque

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/mobile/uk_news/england/lincolnshire/7522877.stm

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard_n_jo/3944287170/

    2-As I understand Islam is the message and concept we as muslim first convene non muslims and they would accept this then there will be no problem to built Masajids any where .

    Masjids for the prayers not just the symbol in there will minority of muslims who go for prayers in Switzerland .

    In this century Muslims have been living in western world and ws free to practice the religion they have build thousands of mosques and Islamic centers ,Tablighi Jamaat has been very active and hold big "ijtemaa" all over Europe and north America ,I have met a person with a long beard from Canada and he told me that non muslims still respect the religious person also Tablighi jamaat with their strict Muslim looks still active in these countries

    All the issues with muslim countries in west were political but some groups made this to "religious " ,anti US sentiment used in Religion . these anti west or US feeling were in china and Russia too where religion is not used . Some Arab groups started this problem and issue the Fatwas and supported terrorism and there have been many attacks by these groups in West including 9/11 and 7/7 (myth for some one not for me ) and they have justified these activities .
    If a non muslim who do not know about Islam and see a guy with mask slaughtering the non muslim on the name of Islam ,or killing thousands by suicide attack on the name of Islam and a Muslim scholars are trying to justify this on TV .What the message he will get from this ? would you think a common man would say "Islam is a peaceful religion and I will accept this " ?

    Indonesia ,Malaysia accepted Islam and there is no issue of Mosque why this cannot happen in Europe ,but we as muslims are more focused on the political issues rather then the core of Islam which is "the Faith "

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 6:02 #
  25. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Sahnaz: First, you are confusing my words, because you noted them out of context.

    Secondly, you are saying that WE are the only ones who say this kind of stuff in the world. That is ALSO a lie.

    Perhaps you haven't noticed, the western forums, also the western armies STANDING ON OUR LAND, KILLING Muslims AT WILL, WITHOUT ANY! fear of ANY kind of REPRISALS from ANY LAW in the world.

    You think we are uncivilized ?

    What would you call that which goes on in the west ?

    Is that what you call being civilized.

    When I used the word 'behead' I used it with certain conditions. You are ignoring the context and making the mistake of taking my words literally, which I will call 'ignorance' at best.

    The west has ALSO been projecting Islam, Muslims OUT of CONTEXT in most cases. Hypocrisy doesn't help resolve issues. It helps INCREASE them.

    I hope you understand the fact, there are certain conditions, when a father hits his son to bring him back in line, if that doesn't help, he punished him with something severe.

    The objective is not to punish someone.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 6:10 #
  26. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @netengr: This thread was not started to question JI's credibility.

    Stay on topic.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 6:25 #
  27. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @netengr: You can open a new thread for it. No one is stopping you from it.

    I wonder why I have to spend at least 2-3 statements on EVERY THREAD to make you REMAIN, ON!! TOPIC!!

    Don't dilute this thread.

    Remain ON TOPIC on this thread.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 7:27 #
  28. in early atge of islam, mosques were not having minars/gunbad etc.
    mosques were as simple as ordinary homes, simple etc. hazrat Umer RAU once got angry when saw a painting of flowers done by someone on Nabwi mosque and ordered to remove.

    all these minars/gunbad and paitings introduced by newly converted muslims from ex-christians states like turkey, syria etc.

    minar & gunbad are not a religious fundamentals of islam.
    mosques and islam is not depending on such symbols.

    when muslims have converted so many churches into mosques, why non muslims are criticised when they convert mosques into churches.

    in fact, muslims are more prejudice than non muslims.

    if usa/western countries are non muslim (darul harb) why muslims migrating there and leaving darulsalams.

    even a lot of molvees have illegally and cleverly migrated to these countries and started looting and making innocent muslims there.

    every muslim is in search of migration visa to usa/western countries. if they are offered visa most of ghairatmand group will sell even their................. and get the opprtunity.

    only those are opposing who can not get opportunity to have visa.

    hypocracy.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 7:35 #
  29. @Migel9I
    'have my views regarding US Uk and all the western countries, I do not need your permission or any on else
    to express my viewpoint.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    You certainly have to abide by the confines of COC and that calls for decency to express your views positive or negative.
    Otherwise don't be surprised when your views are moderated. I do not need your permission or any on else to do that.

    @netengr
    I will second hariskhan that you somehow endup posting offtopic. I have myself reminded you of this. Your offtopic diversion tactics will not be tollerated anyfurther.

    @Sahnaz
    I agree with you on the example you provided. Than pls also acknowledge another but opposite example of Cordova Mosque that is a church now.

    @ALL
    As a suggestion pls avoid pulling/converting/diverting a topic into a hate debate by using religious vs non religious/anti religious issues upfront. We would be in a better position able to discuss better when all of us develop a feeling, a sense of respect for other's beliefs what ever they may be. This may also help create an atmosphere of respect among our honorable forum members.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 7:56 #
  30. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @truepakistani: Do you want me to bash you with facts again ?

    If you'r talking about me, I'm highly educated + skilled. I'v already had offers of visa from some of my personal clients from west, who I'v put on hold to date.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 8:00 #
  31. @hariskhan

    very good if you are well educated. i am really happy to know that.

    again, its very good if you have opted to live in pakistan despite having oppotunities to migrate to west.

    I appreciate your personal reasonings/views.
    keep it up.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 8:07 #
  32. Anonymous

    Haris Khan

    Your comment is off topic therefore I am to submit my views as follows:

    “If you'r talking about me, I'm highly educated + skilled. I'v already had offers of visa from some of my personal clients from west, who I'v put on hold to date”

    That also means that the western clients do not hate us as Muslims, otherwise they won’t offer visa.

    But why have you not rejected visa, instead kept it on the hold. This also means that from your inside, you have the desire to obtain visa.

    With regard to your saying that you are highly educated, I agree with you as your posts support your claim.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 8:45 #
  33. Adonis
    Member

    It is quite amusing to see the argument of "secular psychos", which basically boils down to "whats wrong with the intolerance of west when muslims are even more intolerant".

    Not that this 'argument' is patently false, it is logically incorrect as well. Based on this (ill)-logic any murderer can say that he should not be punished because others who have murdered more people have still not been punished. It is also the same argument that is plied by PPP supporters who say that what if we are corrupt, others are also corrupt so they should be punished first.

    Another 'genius' asked if christians are free to preach and convert in Pakistan, as if that would justify Swiss ban on minarets. As a matter of fact, there is no restriction in Pakistani law against Christians preaching and converting in Pakistan. So much so that American evangelists routinely visit Pakistan and hold large public gatherings for preaching and conversion. I have seen such gatherings with my own eyes and these are widely publicized. There has not been a single incident where a muslim convert to christianity has been punished by any court.

    In Pakistan, Chriistians are free to live according to their own religious laws. Christian marriage, divorce, inheritance everything is governed by Church laws, not Muslim laws.

    In contrast, no Western country grants Muslims such rights. In marriages, divorces, inheritance etc., muslims can not practice Islamic laws in any of these countries.

    Still, these secular nutcases have the nerve to argue that minorities are respected in west and prosecuted in Pakistan. They are nothing but a bunch of shameless liars.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 8:57 #
  34. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @adnak: What's your point ?

    As I see it, your talking about me, its personal, it doesn't serve any purpose related to this discussion, I will ignore your statement.

    However, if it becomes relevant to this discussion, I will choose when and if I want to disclose information relating to my personal life.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 9:36 #
  35. Sahnaz

    You wrote blue mosque was a church. I think this is not true. Blue mosque or Sultan Ahmet mosque was never a church before however in Hagia Sophia which is almost infront of that mosque across the street was once a church and then mosque and now it is something like a museum.

    Coming to the topic, there is no doubt that now in Europe there is a growing anti-islam sentiment due to media bombardment on islam. But this is also somehow helping Islam because due to this media war more people want to know about islam and more people are converting to islam. The conversion rate in Europe is highest compared to any part of the world.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 10:21 #
  36. @ My dear Adonis,
    You worte:
    "In contrast, no Western country grants Muslims such rights. In marriages, divorces, inheritance etc., muslims can not practice Islamic laws in any of these countries."

    Over ten million sentences can be written to negate your distorted and cloudy observation.
    In reality, not only Muslims but the followers of all other religions are more comfortable to observe the freedom of personal religion in Western countries, within the limits of COC.
    Sometimes only one sentence badly effects the credibility of the poster.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 13:32 #
  37. shahzad1924
    member

    "...are more comfortable..."

    just a side question....

    so, what do you suggest? should we all leave the Muslim countries and start living in the western countries?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 13:35 #
  38. My dear Shahzad1924,
    (Answer to your side question)

    No need to migrate to Western countries.
    (Although there are long lines)

    Just struggle to maintain an atmosphere of tolerance to make every one feel comfortable in your own country within the framework of the COC.

    hajoom kyyon hai zyyada sharaab khane main
    faqt yeh baat keh peer-i-mughan hai mard-e-khaleeq

    firdous jo tera hai kisi ne naheen dekha
    afrang ka har qaryya hai firdous ki manind

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 13:44 #
  39. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    How can you claim Muslims and people from other religions are more comfortable there ?

    Javaid Sheikh sb. Do you want me to prove you a liar again ?

    Why do you put up such blatant lies ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 13:53 #
  40. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    ..and as far as COC is concerned, it is for pkpolitics ONLY. It is NOT! for Pakistan.

    For Pakistan, the constitution is Quran-o-Hadees. Quran-o-Hadees is the framework.

    Granted, we are not yet aware of ALL of Quran-o-Hadees's teachings, but with each passing day, we are moving towards that goal.

    ..and, do you want me to talk about 'tolerance' ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 13:54 #
  41. My dear Hariskhan,
    "Do you want me to prove you a liar again ?
    Why do you put up such blatant lies ? "

    Sir,
    you have performed this sacred duty so many times where you declared almost 100% of the members as liars, who don't get convinced from your knowledge and power of argumentation.
    Sir,
    you have every right to prove me a liar.
    Please let me know where I lied?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 14:02 #
  42. Adonis
    Member

    @ javedsheikh

    I standby what I wrote. In Pakistan, christian personal law takes precedence in christian's affairs.

    Can you quote any western country where Muslim personal law is allowed to be applied in precedence to the national laws where Muslim personal affairs like weddings, divorce or inheritance are concerned?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 14:20 #
  43. @ My dear Adonis,
    When a family decides to migrate to a Western Country, they are guided about the Rules, Regulations and Law of the Land.
    Even for a Credit Card one has to accept the conditions and limits related to the Contract.
    The migration is not mandatory, but optional.

    For the last 20 years, I haven't experienced a single report about any complication related to weddings, divorce and inheritance.
    The local rules are equally fair and logical to satisfy the requirements.

    All the weddings are held according to the religious rituals of the party.
    State doesn't intervene.
    All my children got married according to Islamic traditions.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 14:56 #
  44. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Javaid Sheikh sb. How naive and innocent can you be ? I am starting to think you'r 12, not 50+.

    You think the state won't stop Muslims from having more than one wife ?

    You think the state won't stop Muslim females from wearing Hijab ?

    Do you think Marwa Al-Sherbani was killed in Germany in the court room, by 18 stabbings right infront of everyone in the courtroom, just for fun ? Her husband was shot at least once by police as he tried to save his wife from the accused, who stabbed her 18! times and murdered her in cold blood IN THE COURTROOM.

    It was only a few weeks ago, that I was reading a report on how marital abuse has been going on in Asian families living in US, where the brides have or their families have committed crimes against the bride grooms.

    The number of these complaints are rising.

    Its astonishing to note that you have missed this report which was published in western media. I think I saw it on BBC.

    There are well over 1000 cases of the same. Most guys don't report this because of fear of loosing respect for themselves and their families.

    WHAT WORLD ARE you LIVING IN Javaid Sheikh sb. ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 15:04 #
  45. Adonis
    Member

    @ javedsheikh

    Why do you think that Islam is only the issue of immigrants to the west? There are many Muslim converts who are not immigrants. Why they have to face discrimination in western societies if they exercise their fundamental right to choose their religion? After all, these societies boast of their civil liberties. Why such liberties do not apply to Muslims?

    As for your children getting married according to Islamic traditions, maybe your son should try to marry a second wife according to Islamic tradition, then we'll see how much these traditions are respected in western societies. Also, when a Muslim father dies, why his inheritance is not allowed to be divided according to Muslim traditions in the 'tolerant' west.

    You may think that the laws in the west are fair and logical. Similarly, many people think that Muslim laws are fair and logical. If all people in the western societies are forced to accept western laws but minorities in Muslim countries like Pakistan are allowed to practice their own personal laws, then it is indeed a travesty to call western societies as tolerant and Pakistan as intolerant.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 15:38 #
  46. @ My dear hariskhan,
    I like the way where you always start a thread with very wise and philosophical verdict.
    "How naive and innocent can you be ? I am starting to think you'r 12, not 50+."

    Comparing myself to your high standard of knowledge, research and argumentation, gives me a complex that I am not born yet.
    I must admit, it is very hard to compete with your level of intellect and farsightedness.

    Here is ground reality.
    There might be more than 1000 cases of discrimination against Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other Nationalities living in the Western countries, still they never thought to return back to their birthplaces.
    Most of them are trying to get the leftovers family members into these countries.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 15:45 #
  47. Anonymous

    @JS, if awam were following your way of thinking, blacks would still be slaves in USA. Rosa Parks would still be forced to give away bus seats for people of other race.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 15:49 #
  48. Anonymous

    Immigrants who raise their voice for legitimate human needs and rights using legal means are infact doing a favor for the host countries.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 15:52 #
  49. @ My dear bsobaid,
    You are supporting my way of thinking and negating your own argument.
    It is the level of accommodation, tolerance and acknowledgment of talent, what provided opportunity to the son of a slave to get elected as President of the State.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 15:59 #
  50. Adonis
    Member

    I guess you need to update your knowledge a bit. Obama is not the son of a slave. His father was a Kenyan, not an African American while his mother was white.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Nov 2009 16:02 #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.