According to BBC Urdu service Taliban terrorist Qari Hussian has claimed responsibility for Wednesday night Lahore attack on a Shia congregation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2010/09/100901_lhr_blast_procession.shtml
PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues
Taliban claims responsibility for Lahore Attack
(86 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:00 #
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Isnt it so soon???These Taliban didnt even Gave Taliban Apologist a time to blame Blackwater...Something is Fishy about their claim isnt it????
Posted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:16 # -
@gazi23
Talibans are mother of all evils in Pakistan and because of them our country is suffering so badly. Lashkar Jhangvi and SSP are sectarian-based banned terrorist groups and Punjab senior Minister Rana Sanaullah attends their election rallies. How can we win war on terror where senior PML-N leaders are attending rallies of banned terrorist groups?
Taliban apologists will soon put the blame on RAW and CIA or Blackwater and dodgy characters like Imran Khan will put the blame as usual on Govt with a statement that our policies are responsible for this attack.
Shobaz Sharif Govt should resign over this incident because they were actively seeking support of SSP for winning a by- election seat in Jhang and Rana Sanaullah was specially sent to Jhang for securing support of SSP in favour of PML-N candidate.
No wonder why the rest of the world does not trust us where senior Ministers of PML-N are seeking support of a banned terrorist group to win an election.Posted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:28 # -
Funny guys! You wo are not waiting for the infallible Rehman Malik to blame them. I am sure he can find you a position with the FIA. You'd be a perfect fit. Honest! :-P
Posted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:29 # -
@bitterlies
"Talibans are mother of all evils in Pakistan and because of them our country is suffering so badly. Lashkar Jhangvi and SSP are sectarian-based banned terrorist groups and Punjab senior Minister Rana Sanaullah attends their election rallies."Confused? So is it Taliban or Lashkar Jhangvi or SSP or Rana Sanaullah??
Posted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:31 # -
@lota
Yes all of them! Taliban, Lashkar Jhangvi,SSP, Rana Sanaullah and lota, they all are same with one dirty goal and the goal is to destroy Pakistan.
Shame on all of themPosted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:34 # -
@nota
Sirjee Taliban and Sectarian outfits are both SAME side of the COIN the only difference is that they are working in different places having different ways of Caring out exact same thing which they are doing...Confused???Here it goes...
Talibans are mainly from Tribal agencies and its Borders with Afghanistan where Pakistani laws arent applied and where Their is nothing called SYSTEM even exist and the once who control are those tribes use to do Jirga and decide what should be done so due to ABSENCE of system they can create their own Private Army without any Problem while in Punjab SYSTEM not only exist but is working as well and because alot of Army and their Influence in Punjab so They cant create FULL FLEDGED Army like KPK cause they know Army wont allow them to take things from their hands that easily and what they do is creating a Groups in Masjids and started using Propaganda against Another sect or organization whom they found threatened and also act when they have a chance....
So very small difference between Banned Sectarian organization and Taliban is that Banned Sectarian Organizations ACTS like Gangsters while Talibans are acting like an Army or Mercenary...
Posted 1 year ago on 02 Sep 2010 17:46 # -
Punjab Govt has failed again and Taliban/SSP terrorists are roaming free in Lahore and attacking targets wherever they want. Our Police/intelligence agencies have failed yet again or may be there is lack of strong will to catch terrorists. Taliban terrorists enjoy financial and moral support in cities and their suicide bombers are provided logistical support before attacks. Who are these supporters in cities? Why aren't they exposed? What is the expediency which is stopping our Govt to catch them?
Unfortunately these attacks will continue to occur unless we become serious about them and take strong actions against terrorists.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 1:13 # -
@Sweettruth
Welcome to Politics in Pakistan....When Politics become LIFTING people for few votes then this is the results of that....No wonder why would Punjab Govt. ever try to EXPOSE the real culprites of this as they know where their VOTES are coming from...What will gonna happened next is they will Capture few people from those banned outfit present them in front of court and then CASE CLOSED but the real culprits will be easily run away and no one would be able to capture them....I think we need DICTATOR like person who dont give DAMN about Public Opinion for this job....That is why I believe Musharraf was better cause at least he dared to take bold steps for no matter what consequences could be(Lal Masjid)...
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 2:33 # -
Yes a dictator like person is what is needed and not a mirasi coward of a commando.
Hats off to Naseer Ullah Baber when in action on orders by Mrs Bhutto.For many years it was peace and quit.Lets clear Karachi of racist mafias first as a first step.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 13:45 # -
Yesterday's Dunya Today (Sep, 2nd) very objectively discussed the issue of how to scientifically and operationally fight suicide attacks. They quoted example of Israel how they successfully countered it? They had 2 strong recommendations:
1. We, masses but specifically security establishment, should be clear who is our enemy like in Israel and US. There is no confusion in Israel or US about 90-95% people agree about enemy but in our case we have division among our security establishment ranks. Some perceives militant outfits as assets and some as menace and same thought trickles down in masses and political arena.
2. We need to establish homeland security sort of department that can execute comprehensive counter terrorism strategy.
The experts (Zia u din Butt, Dr. Farrukh Saleem, Saleem Safi and Akram Seghal) also agreed that if US leaves Afghanistan after some sort of negotiations and understanding with Taliban and Alqaeda then and only then their departure would have positive influence on Pakistan. If they remain here as they are or they leave as defeatists it will further complicate things for Pakistan.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 15:42 # -
@Naseem
Lolzzzz....I was talking about Punjab province so would people of Punjab welcome Naseer Ullah baber for doing same which he did in Karachi????
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 15:55 # -
Nota,
Why would anyone wait for Malik to spill out what has already been established through admission?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 16:34 # -
May God make the perpetrators rot in hell. May God show them the real meaning of REVENGE.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 16:36 # -
Natasha-
just because I call you and tell you over a mobile phone that I am XYZ and I take responsibility for this or that action DOES NOT make it so- in the Byzantine screwed up security disaster situation in Pakistan.
Deception at all levels of everything is rampant and specifically so that we might not know who is doing what to whom.
Besides God might have different views about who will or will not rot in in Hell!
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 16:42 # -
Shimatoree,
If you're so SURE of the 'deception' please tell me why is there no DENIAL from these proud heroes. Why are they letting this 'deceptive' media tarnish their image?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 16:51 # -
Natasha-
I stand by my comment. It is very simple to understand.
Of course you do have the freedom to express yourself as you see itAnd I am also fully capable of choosing my own words in a few languages for myself without the need for anyone helping to put THEIR words in my mouth.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:14 # -
You made an argument. I asked you a simple question. You do not have an answer. That's not called putting words in your mouth. That's escaping a valid counter-argument I put across to those who see a 'conspiracy' in everything that THEY do.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:20 # -
Come on, natasha, there's no reason on God's earth for the TTP to carry out such an attack. and if they don't deny it, it's their way. We've seen this happen time and again with the Palestinians who rarely bother to deny anything the Israelis put out about them, when we all know fully well they were never involved.
Natasha, think who benefits most. Cui bono as they say and you've got the answer. The forces of evil which have penetrated our country. You can supply the name yourself, no doubt about it. They've been doing much of the killing in recent times, including the cowardly Lahore blasts that sent so many Shias to their Maker. Today's Quetta killings are also their handiwork.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:34 # -
Natasha-
Your judgment that I do not have an answer is incorrect and without merit and without any foundation.
I repeat. If you play with FIRE- do not be shocked if you burn your fingers. If you kill someone or someone's kids- do not be shocked when they come after you to do the same to you.
If the carnage in Quetta bothers you a lot- then stop bombing THEM in FATA.
Simple solution . Or is it too difficult
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:36 # -
I applaud @shimatoree for initiating intellectual debates on this forum but when he speaks up for Taliban and tweak facts even after they own it - it just spins my head. I totally understand if someone is frustrated from ruling elite but it's disturbing when they start projecting Taliban and militants in response.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:37 # -
Shimatoree.
You are telling me not to believe the media reports on the admission WHILE justifying the crime in the name of revenge.
And if you do not want me to believe that you have no answer , work on the perception. Perhaps you too believe in following THEIR way - as Mirza sahab calls it.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:44 # -
shirazi sahib, shimatoree's latest reply is a standard reply on his part. Not to be bothered by it. Mine, too, is a standard reply. I don't believe in the suicide bomber which might qualify it as a Taliban attack. Remote control killing is just as potent a weapon and later it can all be passed off as another strike by some mad Tali.
I believe the people most interested in the complete destabilisation of Pakistan happens to be Blackwater mercenaries who have entered our country with the full backing of our non-government. These are their tragic tricks.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:45 # -
//and if they don't deny it, it's their way. //
EH? Their way? In that case, nobody should have a problem if Paksitanis accept that they do it. If the raah-e-haq ke shaheeds do not want the world to know that they are INNOCENT , their defenders should follow their way too.
Their Way!
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:46 # -
natasha dear, know anything about the Palestinians? They do it exactly like that, too. Ever heard of Muslim pride? The integrity of the downtrodden? Anyone blames me for something I didn't do, I, too, would not make a song and dance of it. I'd simply think: Those who know me better, should know better.
What would you do, natascha, if false allegations were levelled against you?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:51 # -
Well the confirmation has came from the group which is widely known to World for massacre of Shia population...If anyone ever heard about Afghan Hazara and their fate when Taliban entered the Mazar-e-Sharif then he wont argue about things cause that massacre had just about to sparked a war between Iran and Taliban but Pakistani diplomacy somehow retain that situation to occur....Their are two groups available in Pakistan who can do these kind of acts Taliban and Banned Outfits and both have their existence in every part of Pakistan....So when we trace incident like that we end up in Taliban/Banned outfits involvement and after their accepting this responsibility their is no way left to think otherwise.....
Another thing about these CONSPIRACY THEORIES then from day one these conspiracy theories are there to save Taliban and are mostly done by Taliban Apologist themselves like we have PTI doing Blackwater conspiracy to save Taliban from BLAMES cause Imran Khan's stance was too strong before Nizam-e-Adl that he cant move back from his stance so to divert the attention these kind of technique is used...We have another group which starts with CIA, RAW, MOSAD, FSB, KHAD, MI5 and Blah Blah NEXUS against Pakistan and we all are well aware of that group as well....So the point is that this rhetoric of Conspiracy against Pakistan are good for BOOSTING patriotism but its far far away from reality cause these are created by groups who have nothing else to do except selling these kinds of Ghost to PROTECT their IMAGE...
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:57 # -
Ghalib not so dear,
The world has not been faked into believing that Palestinians are TERRORISTS as the Taliban have. There is a history. Crystal clear. The aggressor and the victims are known. Palestinian press does not talk of PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS. Palestinians are not made to believe that palestinians are blowing up palestinians in the name of revenge.
I'd speak up. Talk of FACTS. DENY the allegations put on me. DENY being a mass murderer. Tell them they are being wronged.
What would you do?
Sit at home , sulking and crying injustice, allowing the world to believe whatever's said about you? Let them tarnish thes image of your country and most importantly your RELIGION while attempting to be the hero of a few?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 17:59 # -
Here it goes another revelation of taliban....
DERA ISMAIL KHAN: The Pakistani Taliban have claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing that killed at least 50 Shia Muslims in Quetta on Friday.
The attack sharply drove up the toll of sectarian assaults in a country battered by massive flooding.
Taliban commander Qari Hussain Mehsud tells The Associated Press that though they are fighting the US and the Pakistani government, ''Shias are also our target.''—AP
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 18:01 # -
Shia leader's brain cells are not in order, why they arrange long rally in this critical situation even childern knows that some thing would happen in this large unsecure rally.
@ Struth
"Taliban" accept the resposibility of these kind of incidents on BBC only, we need to find out the relation between "Taliban" and BBC.Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 18:05 # -
Mirza sahab,
Read yourself here. You were sharing my perception only TWO WEEKS ago :
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/pakistan-as-described-by-a-talib
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 18:08 # -
@MG
I share your concerns on black water agenda. What about Arab mercenaries do you think they are here to build infrastructure?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 18:10 # -
Taliban is the most evil devil form of humankind in the world. why kill people in the name of Islam, and then announce proudly "we did it". i jsut cant come up with a logical explanation of this.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 18:19 # -
Natasha-
I am NOT telling you ANYTHING-
to believe anything or NOT believe anything else.
And it DOES NOT matter to me if your believe whatever either.
I am sure you are fully capable of making up your own mind and that is how it should be.
My view point is simple.
If you do not like what has happened in Quetta or in Lahore or anywhere else-
then DON't do it to THEM ( with F-16s, Helicopter Gun ships etc etc) what is being done.
If you have hard time understanding THAT- then keep writing PLEAS to Gog Almighty to place THEM in Hell.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 18:54 # -
@iamsowise
Should we change our lifestyle because of Taliban terrorism? Should we give in to terrorism? What message will we send to our public? We cannot fight with Taliban so do not leave home. Instead of fighting against talibans you are trying to justify their acts by writing that we should not hold rallies. What if Talibans attack Hajj congregation this year? Should we tell people not to come to Saudia for Hajj?
Talibans supporters and apologists have made Taliban a formidable coward force; yes they are coward because they target innocent people and use kids for suicide missions. We cannot win war on terrors unless we take strong action against Taliban and their financial and logistical supporters.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 19:39 # -
natasha, you've really learnt well from our nota. I went and had a look at the thread. And seems to me I was saying the same things then that I'm saying now.
About denial, not so long ago, TTP did go to the trouble of denying they had no hand in Data Durbar. Did anyone take any notice of what they were saying. Not a soul. So why bother?
Anyway, not at all on same wavelength on this, the two of us. Never mind. Some other time.
iamsowise - Look, along with the Punkhtoon, the Shias are the most courageous people in this country. You think they'd give up a jaloos simply because there was a danger of being attacked. It's not knowing them well. They'd die rather than let down their faith. Good obsevation there: what might be the relation between *taliban* and BBC?
shirazi - I'm so glad someone else at least thinks the blackwater coonection is not just a figment of my crazed imagination. I wouldn't put anything past the Arab mercenaries either. I don't trust them in the least.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 19:41 # -
@imsowise
Investigate yourself the relationship between taliban and BBC and please let us know. Are you trying to say Not Taliban but BBC are behind all the attacks in Pakistan?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 19:45 # -
//About denial, not so long ago, TTP did go to the trouble of denying they had no hand in Data Durbar. Did anyone take any notice of what they were saying.//
they just cant notice as they are pretty much dependent upon rehman maliks and some propaganda news.
e.g ttp claimed responsibility of attack at sri lankan teamPosted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 20:39 # -
AP, NYT, WP, CNN, BBC, Al Jazira all are come up first airing claims by Taliban, the TTP and occasionally Al Qaeda. What a connection!
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 20:51 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) We all saw how those who called in to 'accept' 'responsibility' were 'fake' 'Taliban', in Karachi Ashura incident
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(2) If we look at history of mankind, we know for a fact, criminals don't 'publicly' accept responsibility for their crimes. In-fact they rarely, and I repeat, 'rarely' ever acknowledge that they committed crime(s).
It doesn't make sense. Why would a criminal 'publicly' 'advertise' that they committed crimes ?
Those people are not fools. They already know most human beings will automatically reject them as unjust people. This shows, all of this is a 'deliberate' 'drama'.
This is all a 'topi drama' (in urdu). And I want it to end ASAP.
--------------------------------------------------------
(3) There's videos of crimes, murders, loot and plunder, election fraud, etc etc
Who of all of them got arrested, charged, convicted for their crimes to-date ?
..and if the people who are running Govt. of Pakistan, judiciary, state institutions, state machinery are not interested in punishing criminals, the people who vote criminals into power are not interested in punishing criminals, then why all the fuss about 'Taliban' or 'TTP' or some other entity ?
Why do people of Pakistan accept crime of one criminal and complain about crimes of some other ?
Does this make sense ?
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 20:51 # -
Shimatoree,
Next time you don't want to argue with me , don't bother replying my posts.
Thank you.
Ghalib,
//But to your last comment I'd like so say I share your perception. "As far as I know , when they are involved , they take pride in accepting responsibility.Something they do every now and then." That is also a rule of thumb with me.
Why no denials? Perhaps because they feel it's beneath their honour and dignity to deny something which they so obviously have had no hand in. //
^
Is what you said. If you still insist that you're following the same argument - well! What can I say!
Learning from nota. No. My question was actually directed at him.
TTP denied involvement in the darbar blasts.Right. Were they reported to have ACCEPTED the responsibility first?
In this case , they are accepting it. I have a problem with the jialas who say TTP is being framed AFTER we hear their spokesmen taking responsibilities.
OfcoursE I dont believe when Malik says targetted killings are a handiwark of TTP.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 20:53 # -
natasha, I'll try again.
One, my sources, the ones I turn to in times of need, assure me it had nothing to do with the "Taliban" of Pakistan. Look more towards the Indo-Mossad-Blackwater agents who have overrun our country. And this applies to both Lahore and Quetta.
Two: a message did go out claiming the Taliban had done it. We tend seriously to doubt in this particular case that the message really did come form anyone connected with the TTP.
Three: If the TTP did do something and acknowledged it beyond the shadown of a doubt (i.e. blowing up NATO supply trucks, for instance, and such like) was what the first part of my reply to you was about. The second part of my reply about denials is almost a word for word repetition of what I said above.
You're not being attacked, Natasha, it's just about a difference of opinion over a particular event. HK's comment above was also not bad. Our country is in such an overwhelmingly critical state. Now's not the time for us bloggers to fall out as well over who's in the right and who not.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 21:11 # -
hariskhan saahab,
the reason a criminal would openly accept his misdeed is because to him, it is not a misdeed.
to him, he is fighting against the oppressor, to him in his mind, he is gaining the highest state of heaven.
there is no rationality when it comes to terrorism, meaning killing of innoncent people... thats because they are all brainwashed.
why would not Taliban accept their wrongdoings? they want to scare away NATO, USA, and they want to cause turmoil in Pakistan because they hate Pakistani govt as well. they want to show their strength, and the way they show it is by suicidebombing.
do you think a mob/gang of fake preachers of Islam would care one bit about innocent people? please look up the extent of brainwashing that happens.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 21:20 # -
@Natasha
"Shimatoree,
Next time you don't want to argue with me, don't bother replying my posts."You really trying just to argue?
"Learning from nota. No. My question was actually directed at him."
What question? But before you tell me, do read my two comments (1, 2)is this other thread where, incidentally, "Taliban have claimed responsibility as well." Oh, what a surprise! (I am sure it won't make a bit of difference and you will continue to argue the same, but what the...);-)BTW: How did I get into the middle of this 'argument'??
@MG
"natasha, you've really learnt well from our nota."
It was that last one about the army, wasn't it :-P
P.S. natasha is NEVER going to learn anything from me, that I guarantee...Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 21:29 # -
How come, nota? I, for one, learn a lot from you. You are the most precise of our bloggers, a rare quality. How not to learn from such precision? And see how misunderstandings occur. My sentence quoted above was meant as a compliment to both you and to Natascha. A compliment to a beautifully kept date base and the ability to seek out the things one needs at any given time, so a compliment to your memories as well. See where that got me... No wonder one says language is the most treacherous means of communication one could have ever devised.
P.S. I learn from everyone on this blog. Only different things. And from some more consistently than from others.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 21:49 # -
quaidkamazaar, the problem with the TTP hating the government is simply this. So far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, they have never been known to have attacked that government directly. Which makes me at least think that the TTP must then be government agents themselves. Which I can't quite believe either.
Just as natasha said above she didn't believe the tageted killings which Rahman Malik attributed to the TTP were really their own doing, so I often doubt the "evidence" whereby any and all these shameful attacks on innocents throughout the country are automatically blamed on the people of FATA.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 22:00 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Perhaps Mr. 'quaidkamazaar' has not seen that recent episode of 'Views on News' program, where he called a 'leader' or 'responsible' man from a 'condemned' organization in Pakistan, where that man exposed most everyone.
There's no credibility of those who are running Govt. of Pakistan, Mr. Rehman Malik.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 22:02 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Pakistan is a lawless land. It is lawless because of a reason.
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 22:09 # -
"May God make the perpetrators rot in hell. May God show them the real meaning of REVENGE. "
wow! so much whining and bellyaching for this? Which I thought was a perfectly balanced comment. One side says, the taliban are to be blamed for this incident, and the other side has blackwater to blame, but when one says may the "perpetrators" rot in hell, then I don't know what the fuss is about. The person who started whimpering over it, knows deep inside that the perpetrators of this incident are exactly those people, whom he seems to be defending...
Posted 1 year ago on 03 Sep 2010 22:39 # -
@Mirza Ghalib
OK fine at one point I believe that TTP is not known for Attack on Govt. but I dont think that was Govt. rally out their arent they???Just to make a simple explanation their are not much thing called GOVT> even existed in the areas where they mostly operate(Tribal agency) so it is understandable that they dont have much history of attacking Govt. but their are so many attacks where TTP was alleged Involved like AMBUSHING the Security Personnel and Police, Destroying Girls Schools, destroying Govt. buildings and most especially when we have party that say that "we dont accept Pakistan Constitution" then what else you would need further explanation of Attacking the SYSTEM not even Govt. itself cause Govt. change with the passage of Time but system is same since 1971....
About Target Killing its very CONFIRM that they are NOT the type of people to be involve in that so Banned Outfits are the once who are more potentially involved in Taliban and the only Difference between them is that Banned outfits acts like Gangsters who are fighting for turf against the BOSSES of other gangsters while Taliban is PURE example of Rebellion/Militancy....So they cant be equated but only place where we can EQUATE these two are THEIR PURPOSE....Coming back to Taliban and talking about Evidence then Suicide Attacks are ESPECIALITY of Taliban as they are allegedly Involve in so many of them and if we say that some Blackwater type Organization then they are equipped with Highly sensitive and very Advance weapons so I dont think they would ever be WASTING their lives for these kinds of Attacks when they can do it without wasting their lives like that....So everything ends up with the finger pointed on single entity which are more Potentially involved that is Taliban....
Posted 1 year ago on 04 Sep 2010 0:25 # -
@gazi23
"Suicide Attacks are ESPECIALITY of Taliban as they are allegedly Involve in so many of them"Sorry could not make much of your effort above but the quoted sentence gave me the giggles. How does something become my "ESPECIALITY" if I am "allegedly" involved in?
For reference:
al·leged
adj.
Represented as existing or as being as described but not so proved; supposed.Posted 1 year ago on 04 Sep 2010 0:35 #
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