shirazi
Member
A lot is happening in Egypt today, internet is blocked all over in a nation of 77 million people, protesters took streets after Friday prayers. Aljazeera is leading this movement very much like Geo lead ours.
You can watch live coverage here:
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
CNN is also covering it Live.
http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream4&hpt=T1
shirazi
Member
This is a list of Arab countries by population sourced from list of countries by population as of November 2009.
Rank Country Population
1 Egypt 77,500,000
2 Sudan 39,154,490
3 Algeria 34,895,000
4 Morocco 31,649,000
5 Iraq 30,747,000
6 Saudi Arabia 25,721,000
7 Yemen 23,580,000
8 Syria 21,906,000
9 Tunisia 10,327,800
10 Somalia 9,133,000
11 Libya 6,420,000
12 Jordan 6,316,000
13 Eritrea 5,073,000
14 Lebanon 4,275,000
15 Palestine 4,136,000
16 UAE 3,440,000
17 Mauritania 3,291,000
18 Kuwait 2,985,000
19 Oman 2,845,000
20 Qatar 1,409,000
21 Djibouti 864,000
22 Bahrain 791,000
23 Comoros 676,000
24 Western Sahara 513,000
Total Arab League 348,755,830
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_countries_by_population
Also list of Arab countries as per capita income:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_League_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
truths
Member
when we as a pakistani nation awake
shirazi
Member
So far protests that started in Tunisia, a nation of 10M people, spread to Egypt (largest nation in Arab league, 77 M) and Yemen, little under 24 M. It's important that this movement of regime change not only sustain in these countries but more importantly should spread to richer countries in Arab leagues like Saudi Arabia and UAE for any meaningful change.
I hope focus remains on political and economic issues. The last thing we want mullahs hijack this genuine economic and political upheaval to religious movement. And then try to address people's needs through empty slogans.
kulla
Member
Just need to watch what happens next... from an islamic point of view "revolt" against the rules is not permissible so you may see a lot of backlash from religious parties.. but i know that Muslim Brotherhood is supporting this revolt (but not leading it).
I think in Pakistan, we are still not at that verge where we need a revolution like this because then we need to get rid of all the politicians from Nawaz shareef to Asfand Wali Khan (and everyone in between Zardar/Altaf Hussain etc etc)
What could go wrong in Pakistan is that instead of revolting against these politician we will revolt against each other..and that will turn ugly. Punjab vs Sind vs Baloch vs Pathan....
What works for the arab natiosn are that they are one nation, egyptians (muslims and christians)..or tunisians unlike in Pakistan where we are PPP/PML/MQM/ANP etc...
Unfortunately we are not Pakistanis.
Dusky
Member
@ kulla: "from an Islamic point of view "revolt" against the rules is not permissible"
Is this the reason Pakistani religious parties always side with the rulers? ;)
shirazi
Member
I think Pakistan is well ahead of Arabs on this journey. The average life of dictator in Pakistan is 10 years as oppose to 30 years in Arab countries. If you look what protesters are demanding in Cario complete ouster of Mubarik regime and free and fair elections that can bring up true leadership in Egypt from their broad political spectrum that consists of right, left, liberal, religious, moderates.
We already have that mechanism in place though it's far from perfect.
bsobaid
Member
o bhaiyoo, I keep explaining this. What these arabs are fighting for today, we achieved this long time ago. We have a vibrant political system with lots of alternate leadership and freedom of political expression. All these freedoms are unheard of in those countries.
REally, come out of this inferiority complex.
kulla
Member
I dont think there is any complex here... they key is the "bedaari" which Allama Iqbal talked about in his poetry...We as muslims in south asia are not a bedaar nation. We did show some bedaari when we forced Musharraf to reinstate CJP but thats it.
The corrupt politicians are feeding us a bone to keep quiet. No difference from Mubarak who has ran Egypt the same way. We dont need to throwout the goverment but we need to demonstrate and protest against their corruption and our foreign policy and evevrtything that is hurting the common man. We need to force them to accept the common mans demand... and do it across teh board not under an umbrella
of a political party.
we also have a v vibrant corrupt political system ;)
Shirazi, thanks for links. I was watching just before with baited breath. God, when the people reach the end of their tether, they do lose all fear.
Also, I agree with both you and bsobaid as to our own situation in Pakistan being several degress above the one to be found among our Arab brethren.
Nonetheless, it does the heart no end of good to see them finally throw off their chains and stream into the streets, a battlecry on their lips.
shirazi
Member
Whatever is happening on the streets of Egypt is great and very exciting but it won't lead to any big change until rich Arab countries especially Saudi Arabia 'd join them.
I am trying to find a list of Arab countries rulers by number of years, so far no success. May be nota can come up with one quickly or else I will build one manually to back up my claim that average length of dictator in Arab league is 30 years :)
bsobaid
Member
If I am not wrong, Libyan joker is 30+ years.
bsobaid
Member
Saudi will be most significant but most dangerous also as it will be most likely not lead by democratic forces but extremist forces.
shirazi
Member
After cracking down internet and the authorities are on the verge of media especially live streaming black out. State security entered the building in down town Cairo that Aljazera and other media organizations are using. So these are probably last few minutes of exciting live images coming out of the streets of Cairo.
bsobaid
Member
I read somewhere 80,000+ protestors showed up. They probably wont be able to control but on the other hand, Iran had ever more protestors after previous elections but that did'nt change much. Arab rulers are good at controlling protests and uprisings. That is pretty much the only thing they know.
bsobaid
Member
aapas kee baat hai, yeh protests dekh kay shamma-e-risalat kay parwanay aur Tanga party leader Imran Khan kay moo mein paani aaraha hogaa.
shirazi
Member
Not just Saudi Arabia if Islamic extremists lead this uproar anywhere in ME it will just limit the much needed spread out in Arab peninsula. I am sure protesters would be aware of that. If you give it religious color you won't be able to spread out beyond 3-4 countries.
So far it's spreading in poor economies of Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen for purely economic reasons. But rich Arab countries do not share same economic miseries. The inspiration their ought to be more political than economic.
bsobaid
Member
and only unfullfilled aspirations in Saudia and neighbouring emirates are islamic and not democratic. So mostly North African Arab countries will pick the momentum.
shirazi
Member
@bsobaid
I don't know how much Imran or our religious parties 'd be excited but certainly people like Osama and AlZehwari 'd be excited with this in their parent countries.
So far the protests in Egypt are not lead by any specific leader or group but one name that is getting some media attention Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei.
Dr. ElBaradei and the IAEA were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for efforts "to prevent nuclear energy from being used for military purposes and to ensure that nuclear energy for peaceful purposes is used in the safest possible way."
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2005/elbaradei-bio.html
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@kulla: Right now, I have nothing in my knowledge with which I can "visualize" how the masses in Pakistan will be "represented" in the case, we the people of Pakistan choose to "abolish" political parties or "render" them "obsolete".
I need further knowledge, education of Islam in order to get an answer to this question.
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@bsobaid: ..in other words "fascism" is the only thing they know ?
bsobaid
Member
ElBaradei has been a confidant of US and EU during Iran nuke issues. In both Tunis and Egypt the protests were self-organised. Tunisia does not have extremist problem but I am afraid Brotherhood will try to take advantage of the situation by hijacking the protests. If a free and fair elections are held, which seems less likely at the moment, brotherhood will win, which is not a good sign but on the other hand Baradie is not an ideal option either. Western media is covering El-Baradei because he is well-known in the world and in west.
If brotherhood wins then this might get exported to middle eastern arab countries too because they will add an islamic touch to it. I am not too excited about this prospect though.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Video: Call for Khilafah in Tunisia demonstration
16-January-2011
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bsobaid
Member
The problem is, these arabs are lagging us a little. First they were in Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub Khan mode where dictators were the apple of their eye. Now they have matured a little and now they are in IJI mode. They still have a couple more steps to take. Atleast they are getting there.
However, I feel khalifa is not a popular demand there.
shirazi
Member
@bsobaid
I can't say much about who will win free and fair elections. But I don't know how Egyptians can get free and fair elections? America not only controls Hosni Mubarik but more importantly Egyptian Army. Their Army heavily depends on American $$$ and equipment.
Masses can throw Washington backed politicians but how 'd they throw out Washington backed Generals and other military establishment?
bsobaid
Member
yes, thats why I said it is highly unlikely for free and fair elections to take place. I explained in some other post today in one of the related threads of the possible outcome, including Hosni's son running the next term.
As I said in previous post, they are getting there. First Ayub Khan and Zia style dictators, now IJI and then couple steps more.
bsobaid
Member
@shirazi,
Here is my post with possible outcomes.
shirazi
Member
@bsobaid
I don't expect Hosni Mubarik or his son will retain power. If they do these protests are total waste. It's a very fluid situation I won't predict the end game but I do not expect Hosni Mubarik to survive this sunami. What will happen after him, I hope it 'd be better than him but can't say for sure.
bsobaid
Member
In the end, he may not. I was saying Hosni will promise to hold elections which will turn out to be total fraud and protests will erupt eventually causing a change. Although, I must also point out the protests that took place after last Iranian elections which were probably more fierce than Egypt's but nothing changed in short-term.
bsobaid
Member
Another possibility is military let Hosni go and replace him with another one. Military is already in cities on streets to enforce curfew.
@kulla
"from an islamic point of view "revolt" against the rule[r]s is not permissible"
What h*gwash (and it has been repeated many times here)!!!
Was Muhammed (PBUH) acting against "islamic point of view" when he acted against the rulers of his time? Was Imam Hussain (RA)?
Was Christ? Moses? (Or name any other Prophet)?
But don't worry. You've got company:
ElBaradei's civil disobedience against Islam: cleric
(In other words, "Mubarak's attempts at crushing the civil disobedience is FOR Islam: cleric")
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@kulla: There is no "immunity" for "rulers" of a Muslim state, as per Islam's standards. They are fully accountable for any and all decisions, actions they take in their official capacity, as per Islam's standards, rules, laws, guidelines.
Khulafa-e-Rashideen have always "held up" the following "slogan";
if I keep on path of Islam, follow me. If I go astray from the path of Islam, correct me
There is "no escape" for rulers in Muslim states from both ALLAH ALMIGHTY as well as Muslims when they go beyond ALLAH ALMIGHTY's/Islam's set boundaries.
From Islam come the guidelines, the standards, the ways which set the boundaries for "Khalifa" among Muslims to "operate" "inside". As soon as "Khalifa" among Muslims goes "beyond" those boundaries, guidelines, standards, ways, Muslims are to take whatever decisions, whatever actions that are "wise", that are "necessary" as per standards, ways, guidelines, rules, laws of Islam in order to "return" their Khalifa back inside those standards/boundaries.
kulla
Member
@HK and all *this is about muslim rulers*
@nota..against muslim rulers..obviously you cannot read english to make sense of the context.
@HK I dont think i said you cannot correct the rulers, or they are not accountable. They are 100% accountable but i am speaking about revolting against them. I am not saying it, it is the instruction of our Prophet (PBUH) and what our Sahaba's did. Read about the Khuwarij...they created Fitna by revolting.
Muslims are to take whatever decisions, whatever actions that are "wise", that are "necessary" as per standards, ways, guidelines, rules, laws of Islam in order to "return" their Khalifa back inside those standards/boundaries
lastly before i give my example and hadeeth. You should back your claim by hadeeth as well. All your "quotes" dont mean anything unless backed by authentic hadeeths.
‘Abd al-Mālik Ibn Marwān used to be an oppressive ruler. He killed (the companion) ‘Abd Allāh Ibn Az-Zubayr and one of Ibn Marwān’s delegates even destroyed the Ka’bah. Still, (the companion) ‘Abd Allāh Ibn ‘Umar maintained allegiance and obedience to him after all this, and the remaining companions did the same. By Allāh, he was oppressive, may Allāh have mercy on him. He did have good qualities, he did good deeds, he had victorious conquests, and he performed (legitimate) Jihād. Yet, by Allāh, he was an oppressor, he was unjust. The messenger ( PBUH ) taught time and
time again about these circumstances, and these texts are in the two authentic ḥadīth collections (Sahih Muslim & Sahih al-Bukhārī) and in other collections. For example, he said (about the rulers):
“Obey them as long as they establish the prayer among you.”
And he said:
“(You will see things from them) that you know (to be right) and things you dislike.” And when asked, “Should we oppose them with our swords?” he said: “No, not as long as they pray.”
These texts were regarding unjust rulers and still the messenger ( PBUH ) instructed (the people) to have patience with them. He did not allow rebelling and opposing them.
unless you deny Hadith, please comment further. But before you do, i would recommend you first refer to the books of Hadeeth and their tafseer.
Dont judge by your own opinion because its a matter of deen and what our Prophet (PBUH) said.
There are numerous hadeeth in Muslim/Bukhari and Abu Dawood which narrate the same thing. I have not quoted them as it would be too long. I will if you still disagree after doing your research.
bsobaid
Member
What are you guys talking about? Are you all serious?
shirazi
Member
On aljazeera they are saying Dr. ElBaradei is leading the list of candidates to replace Hosni Mubarik.
bsobaid
Member
@Shirazi, Meray Punjabi dost
Mubarik nahi hota, Mubarak hota hai. Hosni Mobarak.
shirazi
Member
@bsobaid
Hota hai nahi hota tha :)
Should have corrected me 30 years ago.
Now just teach me how to pronounce ElBaradei :)
bsobaid
Member
haa haa..that was a good one Shirazi.
iss kay naam kay aakhir mein ainakk wala ain aata hai aur choti yayy.
So, Barada'aee
bsobaid
Member
hey, dont forget to check out the list of protestors demands thread I posted.
bsobaid
Member
Misri Speaker says an important announcement to be made shortly.
shirazi
Member
On Aljazeera pundits are speculating what he 'd say? I don't think he 'd be in position to announce radical changes that can pacify public outrage. He 'd attempt to buy some time but I think it's too late.
bsobaid
Member
He will announce early elections. I think Egyptian elections were'nt far off anyways.
aftab arif
Member
Egyption speaker saying country in "Safe Hands".
shirazi
Member
Hosni Mubarak himself is addressing the nation.
bsobaid
Member
13 deads and 70+ injured in Suez.
By safe hands he means Military in control.
shirazi
Member
I don't think he wants protesters to sleep tonight. He wants them to torch more buildings before he moves to Greenwich :)
shirazi
Member
Let's hope he won't speak for 2 hrs like Qaddafi.
bsobaid
Member
As I suspected earlier in my post.
mein darta warta kisi se nahi hoon - phenomenon will prevail.
SO Mubarak stays, government goes away and he "appoints" a new government. The specific goals for new government are unknown.
aftab arif
Member
Reminded me of Mush back in 2007.
bsobaid
Member
As I said in one of my earlier post, he is a strong and ruthless man and Tunisia's Bin Ali is no match to him. He wont just give up and run away like this. He has seen worse times than these specially with brotherhood. However, the times have also changed.
So the protests will continue. Lets see how it goes.
In the end he would have to call elections.
aftab arif
Member
@ bsobaid
He is powerful just like Mush was but just like every crook they have no feet and feel very insecure.
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