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The Collection of Quran.

(80 posts)
  1. shimatoree
    Member

    The Quran is the warrant of Mohammad’s prophethood.
    It is also the authoritative scripture of the Muslims.
    As yet till after the Prophet’s death it had not been collected and stored in one place.
    It was scattered amongst his companions and the scribes.
    Many of the problems which were to later bother the theologians if the collection and editing had been done during the Prophet’ life and under his supervision.
    The Suras would have been placed in a chronological order.
    It was Hazrat Umar who insisted to Hazrat Abu Bakr that the Quran be collected an edited.( Zayd bin Thabet).
    Many years passed before was finally accomplished
    Under a committee appointed by Hazrat .Uthman.
    As everyone knows the Quran is not in chronological sequence of the revelations. Instead the Suras were placed in order of decreasing length.
    At the time Hazrat Ali and Abdullah b. Masud did have in his possession texts but they were not consulted.
    (A.D.)

    Should one ask why ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 2:48 #
  2. toamin
    member

    don't be afraid shimatoree, go ahead and assert your point or conclusion, or you just want us to comment on your copied points :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 2:54 #
  3. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Why should anyone be interested in this 'why' question ? Why bother with it ?

    What benefit is it to us to ask this question ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 4:26 #
  4. shimatoree
    Member

    .

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 12:50 #
  5. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    This is an era of deviant sects with their deviant theories and distorted history. However, Allah is the protector of his faith. A lot of fitnas arose in the Islamic history but Allah suppressed all of them by the passage of time.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 12:54 #
  6. Revivalist
    member

    shimatoree,

    Shaf shaf makawa, shaftaloo ye ka :-). speak your mind out, dont affraid if you are sincire in knowing about the answers you will get it. I dont know why but i feel like you know the answer but you just want to intiate a new discussion, isnt it?

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 13:03 #
  7. shimatoree
    Member

    Revivalist-

    I do not know the answer since I do not claim to know " everything" about Islam as some " Mullayan" here seem to claim they do.

    I do have a theory which I will put forth at the right time once the discussion gets going -

    - if it gets going !.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 13:25 #
  8. ST,

    I have stong objection to your two words.

    1. Edited (Nobody has authority to Edit Holy Quaran)

    2. As everyone knows the Quran is not in chronological sequence of the revelations. Instead the Suras were placed in order of decreasing length.

    It shows your lack of knowledge.

    A. Surah Kausar is shortest Surah but it is not in end.

    B. Holy Prophet Sallay Allah Alaih Wasalm always directed Katibeen Wahi to place the revealed portion of Holy Quran at a specific position. Various parts of various Surah were revealed at different times but compiled in single Surah according to instructions.

    C. Allah Himself has taken responsibilit of safeguard of Holy Quran and nobody can change its words, change its sequence and even attempt to change its actual meaning.
    (NAHAN U NAZAL LA ZIKR, LAHO LAHA HAFIZOON (WE HAVE REVEALED THIS HOLY SCRIPTURE AND WE WILL SAFEGUARD IT.)

    What you are doing is not an intellectual discourse it is clear and planned action on your part to create doubts among the minds of young people.

    I would appeal admin to take notice of it and immediately stop him from doing this.

    Please try to understand it is not intellectual discussion he has malicious agenda against our Din.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 13:38 #
  9. toamin
    member

    i am waiting for nota & dildar to show their position on this thread!

    mr. toree is very cautious and not saying anything, but copying things around... he sure has malicious agenda no doubt in my mind :)

    PS: got a plane to catch, will get back soon inshallah

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 13:47 #
  10. shimatoree
    Member

    paksiatni47-

    Wake up. This is 21st century. We study history.

    “Edited (Nobody has authority to Edit Holy Quaran)”
    Face the facts. It was edited.

    “ quote “
    “It shows your lack of knowledge.”
    Merely your opinion.

    Quote
    “Holy Prophet Sallay Allah Alaih Wasalm always directed Katibeen Wahi to place the revealed portion of Holy Quran at a specific position. Various parts of various Surah were revealed at different times but compiled in single Surah according to instructions.”

    The fact is that no compilation of the Quran was done till after the death of the Prophet and that too at the insistence of Umar.-( Historical fact). The very fact that it took till Uthman became Caliph shows that they had great difficulty in tracking down all the Suras and placing them in a certain order that you have today.
    Your squeeling indicates that you like some others are unwilling to look at history but live in the La La land of make believe.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 13:52 #
  11. @shimatoree

    The order is fixed! There are many narrations that Gabriel AS used to recite the whole Quran, whatever had been revealed, to the Prophet SAW every year. There are many many narrations about the placement of particular surahs e.g. Al-Mulk in juzz 29. The Quran had been memorized in the same order by the people, therefore during tadween there was never a debate about it's order at the times of Abu Bakr or Uthman RAs, because all huffazz had known it. Reported in Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal that The Prophet SAW once told his Companions after he had received a certain revelation that the arch-angel Gabriel AS had specified for him the particular order of verses.

    Allah Himself asserts the gathering and collecting task: It is We who will collect it (Jama’ahu) into Quran [75:17]

    This is an open and shut issue and you are making a mistake or a false assumption in something you are trying to achieve.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 14:04 #
  12. The compilation was done in the life of Prophet SAAW and it was Hifz to many muslims as Arabs were very proud of their good memory.

    It was just brought in book shape in the time of Hazrat Abu on the advice of Hazrat Umar after martyre of many Huffaz in a battle fought against Mussialma Kazzab.
    Traditions about the Collection of the Qur'an:

    This tradition has been narrated by Zayd b. Tha:bit. He said: Abu Bakr sent for me when the Muslims were slain in the battle of Yamama. [When I entered, I found] 'Umar b. al-Khaattab with him. Abu Bakr said, "'Umar came to me and said, 'Casualties were heavy among Qur'an reciters during the battle of Yamama, and I am afraid that heavier casualties might take place among the reciters in other battles, whereby much of the Qur'an would be lost. I am of the opinion that you should order the collection of the Qur'an [in book form]."' I asked 'Umar, "How dare I do something the Messenger of God did not do?" 'Umar replied, "This, by God, is a good thing [to do]." 'Umar kept urging me until God opened my chest for that and I came to view the matter as he did. Zayd said that Abu Bakr said [to him]: "You are a wise young man and we trust you. You used to record the revelation for the Messenger of God. So go and find [all the fragments of] the Qur'an and put them together."

    http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_collection.htm

    Just correct your historical facts.

    I am sure the prupose of all your threads is not looking into history and you have certain specific designs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 14:05 #
  13. I agree with B. Ossama.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 14:07 #
  14. shimatoree
    Member

    pakistani47

    quote from your comment

    " "How dare I do something the Messenger of God did not do?" I rest my case

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 14:17 #
  15. Shimatoree,

    At one place you defend and support the ijtehad and ijma of Sahaba -e-Kiram and at other you go against it to support your point. Very straqnge logic.

    I give up. I am nobody to discuss at length such delicate topics. I may loose my eeman if say somethin in-correct.

    But I say you the same:

    If you are really believer then, please be careful dont discuss such delicate topics.

    If you are not, as only Allah know about your real intents then you should wait for your destiny. Destiny of those who committed similar crimes in past. Crimes of misleading beleivers.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 14:30 #
  16. shimatoree
    Member

    pakistani47

    I am just a seeker of truth no more. I want to know what happened

    God knows who I am and of my sincerity.

    And after all that is the only thing important to me and my destiny

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 15:08 #
  17. toamin
    member

    yes, that is the fact as stated by bo & pakistani, orientalists in the past have tried very hard to raise doubt on Qur'an but here they have all failed...

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 16:41 #
  18. Ok Shima Toree,

    If you are so interested in history, history is also my favourite subject. I am suggesting few topics, let us discuss on them if you like. They are quite interesting and can be termed as turning points in our history.

    1. Role of Abdullah bin Zubair during Bannu Ummayah Era
    2. Facts about Karbala
    3. Conquerors of Islam in the era of Walid bin Abdul Malik and their destiny.
    4. Jafar the Wazir and his fate in ethe era of Haroon ur Rasheed.
    5. Muhammad Shah Saljuki and Nizamul Mulk Toosi
    6. Hassan bin Sabbah and his Suicide Killers (Fidaees)
    7. Fall of Abbasids in 1258 and birth of Usman in same year.
    8. Jang-e-Angoora between two great conquerors of Islam. Bayazid Yaldaram and Amir Taimur turned the tide of history.
    9. Crusade and their relationship with Europe Renais.

    Few topics related to great nation you belong the Pathans.

    10. Ahmed Shah Abdali and his Ihsan on Sub-Continent
    11. Syed Ahmed Shaheed and role of Pathan tribal leaders

    These all topics are related to Military aspect of our history.

    Now few about Science and Culture.

    1. Great inventions and discoveries of Muslims scientists and their adaption by Europeans.

    2. Muslims of Andulusia opened the door of knowledge to Europeans.

    3. Role of Muslim Salors in discovering Americas.

    4. First great Navy of Turks under Barbarosa was a starting point for European Naval expeditions.

    5. Ummar Khayam, Saadi and Roomi.

    6. Musaddas-e-Haali and Shikwa and their similarities.

    These topics I have just written fil badih so they may miss many important topics.

    I think you may not like my this post but it is my sincere effort to divert your intellectual pursuits towards lesser delicate issues.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 17:46 #
  19. shimatoree
    Member

    pakistani47

    You have put a long list. But I do believe you are sincere and therefore the least I can do is reply to each item. Give me a few minutes and I shall be back.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 17:54 #
  20. ST

    Thanks for acknowledging my sincerity. Any of these topics can be discussed in separate thread. I am specially interested in Hassan bin Sabbah as it is related to our current Suicide bombing problem.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 18:00 #
  21. NNL
    member


    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 18:01 #
  22. shimatoree
    Member

    pakistan47

    I am not going to comment in order on the first 9 but in a different order .

    1. Facts about Karbala. As you know there are a lot of different views coming from very different sources-( Shia or Sunni or Salafi or Wahabi).

    But certain facts are incontrovertible and in my view they are-
    1.Yazid was an illegitimate corrupt usurper.
    The sons of the companions of the Prophet who themselves were responsible for making Uthman the 3rd Caliph- had joined Yazid in the battle against Imam Hussein. Why dod they do that ? Because for personal gain only.

    2.Imam Hussein was killed at Karbala, his head was but off and paraded in Damascus.His sister and other women were paraded in chains at the same time.

    2. Ahmad Shah Abdali- Even though he was a Pushtoon- I would take serious issue with the assertion that he did any Ehsan on the Muslims of India. He did destroy the Marhatas and that was for good but he did not stay and fix the problem. He left the mess to be sorted out by the locals who were incapable. Imagine what would have happened if Mohammad Ghori’s assistants had also left India to their own means after he defeated Prithvi Raj.
    3. The incident of SayYed Ahmad Shaeed Brailvi is a dark chapter in our history. The Pushtoon chieftains in Mardan and Charsada and other places did not help him at all instead they provided information to the Sikh regime.
    4. I am ashamed of what the Pushtoons did.
    5. Great inventions by the Muslims adopted by the Europeans. Why were the Muslims not able to continue with their own inventions ? The reason is simple. The Mullahs of the time or the religious clergy if you like wanted to control thought and block all independent thinking. The illegitimate rulers( Ummayad and Abassid) wanted to get legitimacy. Well the two joined hands and that is the reason why progress in the Muslim inventions shifted to the Europeans
    6. Muslim Andlusia opened the doors of knowledge to Europe. But how did they close the door towards knowledge for the Muslims ?
    7. Because the religious clergy was interested in monopolizing their control over thought and creativity and they succeeded in doing just that. They were busy discussing the validity or not of manufactured Hadith here and there while the Europeans were using their brains for innovation and creative advancement of knowledge. It is like you have a ton of gold but you do not want your kids to use it and let your neighbors have it to use.
    8. I am not aware of Muslim sailors having any role in discovery of America. If you have- I would be interested in knowing about that.
    9. The use of Barbarosa ( a Pirate) by the Turkish Kings was a good military thought but to call that the start of European naval expeditions is wrong. The Greeks and the Romans-( and the Iranians were far advanced in naval operation long before Barbarosa was born.
    10. Omar Khayyam, Saadi, Rumi and Hafiz, Ganjavi and other poets and thinker were great men of letters but we did not help a whole lot of such men and women because we wre controlled by the religious police. And do not forget Hallaj and others.

    What baffles me is not that we had these great men- I am mad because an idiotic group of intellectual midgets were able to highjack and suppress the cultural and social evolution of a super talented people with the cooperation of the illegitimate regimes of those times.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 18:22 #
  23. Very good ST,

    I agree with most of your remarks, and fully agree with your last paragraph. Yes Mullas have damaged muslims througout their history. But this does not mean that we start doubting sincerity of Sahabas of Ashra-e-Mubashira and Sahabas who are called Ashab ul OOla (Sahabas of Badar). These Sahabas were not Mullas in any way. Their sincerity is beyond any doubt.

    What about Hassan bin Sabbah. I have learnt that people in FATA and Afghanistan are using similar tactics to prepare Suicide bombers.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 18:46 #
  24. shimatoree
    Member

    Hasan Bin Sabbah-

    What you say is true. That type of stuff is going on in FATA and Afghanistan but we must take the environment into account.
    You have a lots of people who are hurting due to the repeated attacked from the air( USA and Pakistan). Their families are decimated and a young man who is the only person left. He is a ready made person to be exploited by these modern day Hassan Bin Sabbahs. Plus they are paid a large sum( for them) of money which helps their family make ends meet. So the young man sacrifices himself to make money for his family.

    If we had an true Islamic egalitarian society which took care of such people and provided emotional psychological support to them- the number of suicide bomber would be reduced to nothing.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Sep 2010 18:54 #
  25. toamin
    member

    The Compilation of the Qur'an

    It has been proven by definite evidence that when the Prophet (SAW) died the whole Qur'an had been written on scraps of shoulder bones, palm fibre, likhaf, and other parchments.  In addition the Sahabah had committed the Qur’an to memory.  An ayah or aayaat would be revealed and the Prophet (SAW) always ordered his scribes to write them down before him at once.  Concerning the Qur’an, the Prophet (SAW) only allowed the Muslims to write from it of what he had dictated to those scribes who wrote down the revelation. Muslim reported a hadith from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri that Rasool Allah (SAW) said: ‘Do not write down anything from me, whosoever writes anything I have said other than the Qur'an let him erase it'.  The compilation of the revelation by the scribes was collected on sheets (suhuf).  He (SWT) said: 

    ‘A Messenger from Allah, reciting purified pages (suhuf) (of the Qur'an)'. [98:2] i.e., reciting sheets (qirtas) purified from falsehood, honestly handwritten unequivocally true and just. Allah (SWT) said:

    'Nay, indeed it (verses of the Qur'an) are a warning (tazkirah). So whoever wills, let him pay attention to it. (It is) in Records held (greatly) in honour. Exalted (in dignity), purified. In the hands of scribes. Honourable and obedient.' [80:11-16] meaning this warning (tazkirah) established in Records being held (greatly) in honour (suhuf mukarramah) from Allah (SWT) and exalted in value, and free from the hands of those who are corrupt (shayateen).  They have been written down by God fearing (atqiyaa) scribes.  The Messenger (SAW) ensured that everything between the two covers of the mushaf was revelation that had been written down in front of him. 'Abdul-'Aziz b. Rafeea’ na      : Shaddad bin Ma'qil and I entered upon Ibn 'Abbas. Shaddad bin Ma'qil asked him, 'Did the Prophet leave anything (besides the Qur'an)?'  He replied. "He did not leave anything except what is between the two bindings (of the Qur'an).' Then we visited Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiyyah and asked him (the same question). He replied, 'The Prophet did not leave except what is between the bindings (of the Qur'an).' An Ijma'a (consensus) took place that confirms all verses of the Qur'an in their respective chapters (surahs) were written down directly in front of the Messenger (SAW) when revelation came to him, and that they were written on sheets (suhuf). The greatest of Messengers died content about the state of the Qur'an, his greatest miracle which had established complete proofs for the Arabs and the world. He did not fear for the verses of the Qur'an because Allah (SWT) has preserved the Qur'an with an explicit instruction?

    'Verily: It is We Who have sent down the Zikr (the Qur'an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption',[15:9] meaning these verses had been preserved permanently through being written in the presence of the Messenger (SAW), in the hearts of the Sahabah and through the general permission granted to the Muslims to copy the verses of the Qur'an.  This explains why after the death of the Messenger the Sahabah did not feel the need to compile the Qur'an in one book or write it down.  This remained the case until many of the Huffaz (memorisers of the Qur'an) were killed in the Harb-ur-Riddah (Riddah wars).  Due to this Umar feared for the loss of certain transcripts and deaths of more of the Qurra'a  (Huffaz), which might cause verses to be lost.  So he considered compiling the written scripts together in one bind.  He presented his ideas to Abu Bakr and the Qur’an was compiled.  It has been na       by 'Ubayd b. al-Sibaq that Zayd b. Thabit Al-Ansari said: ‘Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamamah (where a great number of Qurra'a were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come and told me, The people suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamamah, and I am afraid there will be more casualties among the Qurra'a (those who know the Qur'an by heart) in other battles,  and a large part of the Qur'an could be lost, unless you collect it.  I am of the same opinion that you should collect the Qur'an," Abu Bakr added, ‘I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah (SWT)'s Apostle did not do?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah (SWT), it is (really) a good thing.'  'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah (SWT) opened my heart to it and I took the same opinion as 'Umar.' Zayd b. Thabit said: Abu Bakr said to me that you are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write down the revelation (wahy) for Allah (SWT)'s Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). ' By Allah (SWT), if they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would have been easier for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?' Abu Bakr said, 'By Allah (SWT), it is (really) a good thing.  ‘So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah (SWT) opened my heart for that which He had opened the hearts of Abu Bakr and Umar.  So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart).  I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat at-Tawbah which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were): 

    'Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty',[9:128] until the end of surat Bara'ah. The manuscript on which the Quran was collected remained with Abu Bakr till  Allah (SWT) took Abu Bakr to death, and then it passed onto 'Umar during his lifetime, and finally it stayed  with Hafsah (R.A) the daughter of Umar.  Zayd's compilation of the Qur'an did not consist of anything he wrote down from the Huffaz.  Rather his compilation brought together that which he had written down himself in the presence of Rasool Allah (SAW).  He did not place one sheet with another to compile them unless two witnesses testified for this sheet, that it had been written down in the presence of Rasool  Allah (SAW).  Furthermore, he did not accept any sheets of the Qur’an unless it met two conditions: firstly, that it was held in written form with one of the Sahabah, and secondly, that it had been memorised by one of the Sahabah.  When both written and memorised formats concurred with the sheet that was to be compiled, he accepted it, otherwise anything else was rejected.  For example, even though Zayd himself could remember and recall Surat  Bara’ah, he did not take the last verses of it until he found them in written form with Abu Khuzayma.  It has been na       through Yahya b 'Abdel al-Rahman b. Hatib that he said: 'Umar stood up and said; ‘whosoever has received anything of the Qur'an from Rasool  Allah (SAW), let him bring it forth.  They used to write the verses on sheets, tablets and palm risps.  Ibn Hatib said about Zayd, ‘he (Zayd) did not accept anything from anyone until two witnesses had given testimony. This showed Zayd was not satisfied merely by finding something in written form until the one who had received it testified that he had heard it, despite the fact that Zayd had already memorized it.  He did this because of extreme caution.

    The process of compilation was simply bringing together sheets that had already been written in the presence of Rasool  Allah (SAW) into one book.  The Qur'an  was written down on sheets that were kept separately.  Abu Bakr assembled them in one place.  Abu Bakr's order to compile the Qur'an was not an order to put it down in one mushaf, but an order to bring together the sheets that had been written in the presence of the Messenger in one piece and to verify it.  This verification was done through the testimonies of two witnesses that these verses had been written down in the presence of Rasool  Allah (SAW) and that these verses were being held in written form by the Sahabah and they had memorised them.  These sheets remained preserved with Abu Bakr during his life and were then passed onto 'Umar who kept them during his life and then passed onto Umar’s daughter, Hafsah in accordance with 'Umar's bequest.  Abu Bakr's compilation of the Qur'an consisted only of bringing together sheets that had been written down in the presence of Rasool Allah and was not an actual compilation of the Qur'an.  This memorisation related to these sheets i.e. scraps that had been written down in front of Rasool Allah (SAW) and not the actual memorisation of the Qur'an. The bringing together of these pieces and their preservation was done through extreme caution and by the execution of tremendous effort to examine the memorization of what had been reported from Rasool  Allah (SAW).  As for the Qur'an itself, it was preserved in the hearts of the Sahabah and compiled in their memory.  In memorizing, a great multitude of Sahabah were relied upon because many of them had memorized it completely or in part.  

    Concerning the compilation of 'Uthman, in the second or third year of his Khilafah 25 AH, Huzayfah b. al-Yaman approached 'Uthman in Madinah at the time when the people of ash-Sham and Iraq were waging war to conquer what is now Armenia and Azerberjan.  Hudhayfah was concerned about the differences between the two peoples in their recitation of the Qur'an.  He saw the people of ash-Sham reading according to the recitation of Ubay b. Ka'b and they came with readings the people of Iraq had not heard of.  He saw the people of Iraq reading according to the recitation of 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud and so they brought readings the people of ash-Sham had not heard of.  The two peoples began to quarrel with each other and accused each other of kufr (disbelief).  They disagreed about a verse in surat al-Baqarah.  For example one read it as 

    'And perform properly the hajj and 'Umrah for Allah (SAW);
    (wa -atimmul hajja wal 'umrata lillah)'. [2:196], and the other read

    ''And perform properly the hajj and 'Umrah to the House (of Allah (SWT))
    (wa atimmul hajja wal 'umrata lil bayt)'.  Huzayfah became angry and his eyes went red with rage. It has been na       about Huzayfah that he reported on this matter saying, ‘The people of Kufah adhere to the recitation of Ibn Mas'ud and the people of Basrah adhere to the recitation of Abu Musa. By Allah (SWT)! If I go to the Leader of the Believers I will order him to make it a single recitation’.  So he travelled to 'Uthman.  Ibn Shihab reports that Anas b. Malik na      : Huzayfah bin al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war in Arminya and Adharbijan.  Huzhayfah was concerned of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians differed about their books’.  So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsah saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.' Hafsah sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah b. al-Zubair, Said b. al-'As and 'Abdul-Rahman b. Harith b. Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid b. Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue.'  They did so, and when they had written several copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah.  'Uthman sent one copy of what they had copied to every Muslim Wilayah (district) and ordered that all other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragments or whole copies be burnt and destroyed’.  The number of copies made was seven, and they were sent to Makkah, ash-Sham, Yemen, Bahrain, Basrah, Kufah, and one copy was kept at Medinah.

    Therefore, 'Uthman's action was just the copying and transcription of what had been transcribed from Rasool  Allah (SAW) in its original form.  He did not do anything except that he made seven copies from the original preserved copy kept in the possession of Hafsah, the mother of the Believers, united the people on this single script and forbade the existence of any text or script other than this.  This matter settled upon a master text.  It is the same handwriting and script in which the sheets had been written, in the presence of Rasool Allah (SAW) when the revelation was first revealed.  It is the same copy complied by Abu Bakr.  The Muslims began to make copies from this text and not other.  Nothing remained except the mushaf of 'Uthman in its script.  When printers came about, the mushaf was printed from this copy with the same handwriting and script.

    The difference between the compilations of Abu Bakr and 'Uthman is that the former took place because of the fear that some verses of the Qur’an might be lost if any of its carriers (memorisers) were lost.  Although it has been written on sheets it had not been compiled together into a single book.  The compilation of 'Uthman took place because the expansion of the Arabic language (Qira’aat) led to differences in reading various aspects of the Qur’an.  This led some Muslims to accuse others of making an error.  It was feared the matter would escalate and become worse and these sheets were therefore copied into one mushaf.  The mushaf we now have before us is the same mushaf revealed to Rasool  Allah (SAW); it is the same one which was written in those scripts written in the presence of Rasool  Allah (SAW); it is the same mushaf that Abu Bakr brought together into one place; and it is the same one from which 'Uthman transcribed the seven copies and ordered that the rest be burned.  It is the same Noble Qur'an in its arrangement of the verses and their respective Surahs, in terms of handwriting and script.  From the copy dictated by Rasool  Allah (SAW) direct from revelation, these sheets were compiled together and then copied.  It remained protected in the possession of Hafsah, the mother of the believers until Marwan became the Wali (governor) of Madinah and tore it up.   The original text was not considered binding because copies of the mushaf had now spread everywhere. Ibn Shihab na       that Salim b. 'Abdullah b. 'Umar informed him that Marwan used to send for Hafsah when he was the amir of Madinah - asking her for the original sheets from which the Qur'an had been written.  She refused to give him it.  Salim said after the death of Hafsah and while we were returning from her burial, Marwan communicated his firm decision to 'Abdullah b. 'Umar that he sends him that mushaf.  So 'Abdullah b. 'Umar sent it to him and Marwan ordered that it be destroyed.  He said: ‘ I did this because I feared that if it remained with people for a long time then people would have doubts regarding these sheets.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 11:04 #
  26. "Hafsah, the mother of the Believers, united the people on this single script and forbade the existence of any text or script other than this."

    Funny she felt no need to do the same for hadith (and same holds true of the Sahabah). In fact she too seems to have forbidden it ("forbade the existence of any text or script other than this.")
    :-P

    (But of course you will continue to claim "Allah SWT has ordered us to follow both Qur’an and Hadith, and it is obligatory to believe in both of them.", despite your own evidence to the contrary. )
    :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 11:17 #
  27. ^ I can understand your excitement, but what is meant by "Hafsah, the mother of the Believers, united the people on this single script and forbade the existence of any text or script other than this" is that Hazrat Hafsa RA forbade the existence of 'any other script of the Quran', that had a different dialect than the master copy, the issue was not of the ahadith or any other book after the Quran...

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 11:36 #
  28. @UmeR"'any other script of the Quran', that had a different dialect than the
    master copy, the issue was not of the ahadith or any other book after
    the Quran..."

    Thanks for your input but none was needed. It is OBVIOUS 'Quran' was meant. She certainly COULD NOT mean any script of AHadith as it would be some 200 years before any of them was BORN.;-)And don't try to cover it by labeling it as "excitement". Facts are facts. And one of them is AHadith are not the same thing as Sunnah, though most 'faithful' would like to present them as such. That is a fabrication, a BIG lie,  I continue to maintain... :-P

     

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:00 #
  29. toamin
    member

    nota,

    your comment is welcome, but before you find funny things in Qur'an or hadith, please mention your evidence.
    I'm open to learn if you have anything.
    Regarding believing in Qur'an and hadith as source of sharia and obedience, work as already been provided.
    If you are questioning if hadith is part of aqeedah or not, that is another debate and i am willing to comment on that one too if you open another thread.  I'll explain you there difference between different type of reportings and why Khabar Ahad is not qualified to aqeedah but is binding upon us in matter of action/execution.
    thank you

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:06 #
  30. toamin
    member

    regarding compilation of Qur'an Kareem, detailed work has been put up here that clears misunderstanding sowed by shimatoree-

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:09 #
  31. Nota Said:Funny she felt no need to do the same for hadith (and same holds true of the Sahabah). In fact she too seems to have forbidden it ("forbade the existence of any text or script other than this.")
    :-P

    And then: It is OBVIOUS 'Quran' was meant

    Now I am sure it was 'obvious'...

    Anyway, excuse me for dropping in and barging your private party

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:10 #
  32. shimatoree
    Member

    nota-


    need contact info.

    also- Last Supper

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:11 #
  33. toamin
    member

    nota,


    The Hadith 
    One should be familiar with the meanings of terms that are frequently used by the muhaddithun. They are : Hadith, khabar, athar and sunnah. These are general terms.  The words matn, sanad, isnad, musnad and musnid are from the perspective of the words of the hadith and its transmission. The words muhaddith, hafiz, hujjah, hakim are from the perspective of the transmitters.  This is the clarification of the meanings of these words in the terminology of hadith :

    1. Hadith : Whatever has been attributed to the Prophet (SAW) in terms of his sayings, actions, consent or physical description (i.e. relating to his creation (SAW) such as his being of medium height), or his character meaning relating to his morals such as he did not counter anyone with anything makruh. Khabar and sunnah has this meaning also. They are synonymous terms for the term hadith. All these words - hadith, khabar and sunnah have the same meaning. As for athar it is the hadith ending to the Sahabah (may Allah (SWT) be pleased with them).

    2. Matn : IT is the speech which comes at the end part of the sanad. The sanad is the  line of transmission leading to the matn, i.e. the men (transmitters) who lead to the matn. The isnad is the attribution of the hadith to the one who said it. Musnad is the chain which is continuous from its beginning until the end, even if it stops at the sahabi (mawquf). The word musnad is also applied to a book in which reports of the Sahabah are compiled. As for musnid it is the person who narrates the hadith with its isnad.

    3. Muhaddith : Someone who carries the hadith and devotes his attention to it in terms of narration (riwayah) and meaning (dirayah). The hafiz: Someone who has committed to memory a hundred thousand hadiths with the matn and sanad, even if they are through various lines of transmission, and he is aware of what the hadith requires. The hujja: Someone  who is thoroughly acquainted with three hundred thousand hadiths. And hakim is someone who is familiar with the entirety of the sunnah.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:14 #
  34. ajhons
    Member

    I request the admin of this site to close this thread and don't allow such topics here.I don't know if you are a muslim or not but this topic is not only absurd but reasonless.From years number of discussion around the world initiated and died out.If you allow to keep running this topic under the umbrella of"freedom of speech" then you have no right to protest on Holy prophets' cartoon by that filty danish goon

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 12:24 #
  35. Dear Salam Sahib,

    I am grateful for providing detailed information. It is really valuable information and it was much needed on this thread.

    Thanks again.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 18:39 #
  36. ST,

    I acknowledge your concern about attacks on innocent people in FATA and Afghanistan. You are also right in saying that young people are forced by circumstances to become suiciders. But sane people in those areas should rise and start a movement that condemns the attacks on innocent people as well as the suiciders.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 18:45 #
  37. shimatoree
    Member

    pakistani47


                        some people DID rise and started a movement.

                       But most of them were killed after being declared non-Muslim.

                       It is a war zone. Anyone who is not for you is against you.

    Their innocents are being killed everyday by the Drones and F-16s too.

                       How many million men marches have you seen in Lahore, Karachi or Islamabad about that.

                       The hypocrites of Jamat e Islami and JUI are not there either- as the others are puppets of the West anyway.

                   

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 19:14 #
  38. shimatoree
    Member

    The misunderstanding still remains-


    Why is the Quran organized as it is. It certainly was NOT done by God.
    The putting together and arrangement and editing was done by men during the times of Umar and Uthman.

    Why was'nt it put together during the lifetime of the Prophet under his supervision.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 19:17 #
  39. I am sorry ST I can not discuss this topic with you. Information provided by Mr. Salam is more than enough to believe if you want to beleive.

    Have you ever seen a boy of two to three years trying to put his hand in fire as he does not know the outcome of putting hand in fire.

    This is a very delicate issue. I would suggest you to meet a real relegious scholar not Mullah of your liking. Try to get your confusion cleared. Internet can not solve it for you as there is not enough information about Islam on internet. Many websites with Islamic names are operated by jews and christians just for misleading young believers. I can only pray for you.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 19:51 #
  40. ST

    A very good Dua to recite again and again for all of us.

    http://entertainment.ptcl.net/devotionaldetail.aspx?categoryid=2347

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 19:57 #
  41. shimatoree
    Member

    Thank you


     Molana pakistani47.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Sep 2010 20:58 #
  42. toamin
    member

    you are welcome Pakistani47



    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 3:43 #
  43. Revivalist
    member

    ST,

    Dont ask questions put forward your case/point of view in detail what exactly you think about Quran and it being the words of Allah (swt). I dont understand your objective behind opening this thread. 

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 9:08 #
  44. I may be interrupting, but i am curious about 'Wahi', just want some information.

    When an ayat comes to Prophet does He tell Sahabah to write it down specifying that it is Wahi?

    How do the Wahi come? Does He specify or some strange symbols (i read somewhere that at time of Wahi He start saying the ayah continuously in a strange manner) appear and people around realize that wahi is coming and write/remember it?

    Some people say that Prophet learned to read/write and then written Quranic verses with his hands as they 'came'

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 9:27 #
  45. shimatoree
    Member

    The questions have been raised already-


    1. Why are the suras in the  Quran not in a chronological order . Why the Meccan Suras are not  first followed by the suras in Madina.

    2. Why was the Quran not witten down and organized during the Prophet's life time but had to wait till Uthman became Caliph.

    3. Why Ali and some others who did keep a record of the Suras were never consulted when compiling and putting together the Holy book.

    Or please tell me what happened ?

    In stead of someone coming out with a sane and logical and historical explanation- all these guys are calling me names of all kinds just because I have asked these questions.

    Just answer the questions if you can. 

    If you cannot- then you know as much as I do. 

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:24 #
  46. Shimatoree, I am incapable of answering your questions, but I can add something to your question number 3 above.

    "From 12th A.H. till 24th A.H. Hazrat Ali led a very retired life. In the beginning he spent his day in compliling the Holy Quran in the chronological order of chapters and verses as they were revealed to the Holy Prophet (PBUH), he presented this to the Muslims, but when its acceptance was refused, he advised his companions to accept the Holy Book as complied officially, saying that his compilation would not be seen by anybody, so that there might not come into existence more than one version of the Quran and might not create doubts about the august book."  (Nahjul Balagha, pp. 43-44)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:43 #
  47. NNL
    member

    @ Life

    Praise be to
    Allaah.

    It is reported in al-Saheehayn from ‘Urwah ibn
    al-Zubayr that ‘Aa’ishah the wife of the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings
    of Allaah be upon him) said:

    “The beginning of the Revelation that came to the Messenger
    of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was good
    dreams; he never saw a dream but it came true like bright daylight.
    Then seclusion was made dear to him, and he used to go to the cave of
    Hiraa’ and worship there, which means that he went and devoted himself
    to worship for a number of nights before coming back to his family to
    collect more provisions, then he would go back again. Then he would
    go back to Khadeejah to collect more provisions. (This went on) until
    the truth came to him suddenly when he was in the cave of Hiraa’. The
    angel came and said, ‘Read!’ The Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and
    blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘I am not a reader.’ He said,
    Then he took hold of me and squeezed me until I could not bear it any
    more then he released me and said, ‘Read!’ I said, ‘I am not a reader.’
    He took hold of me and squeezed me a second time until I could not bear
    it any more, then he released me and said, ‘Read!’ I said, ‘I am not
    a reader.’ He took hold of me and squeezed me a third time until I could
    not bear it any more, then he released me and said, 

    ‘Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all
    that exists).

    He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated
    blood).

    Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.

    Who has taught (the writing) by the pen.

    He has taught man that which he knew not.’

    [al-‘Alaq 96:1-5 – interpretation of the meaning]

    Then the Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings
    of Allaah be upon him) went back with his heart beating wildly, until
    he came to Khadeejah and said, ‘Cover me! Cover me!’ They covered him
    till his fear went away. Then he said to Khadeejah, ‘O Khadeejah, I
    fear for myself,’ and he told her what had happened. Khadeejah said,
    ‘Nay, be of good cheer, for by Allaah, Allaah will never disgrace you.
    You uphold the ties of kinship, speak truthfully, help the poor and
    destitute, serve your guests generously and assist those who are stricken
    by calamity.’

    Then Khadeejah took him to Waraqah ibn Nawfal, the son
    of her paternal uncle. He was a man who had become a Christian during
    the jaahiliyyah. He used to write Arabic script and he used to write
    from the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allaah willed he should write.
    He was an old man who had become blind. Khadeejah said, ‘O son of my
    uncle, listen to what your nephew says.’ Waraqah said: ‘O son of my
    brother, what have you seen?’ [The Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings
    of Allaah be upon him)] told him what he had seen. Waraqah said: ‘This
    is the Naamoos [Jibreel] who came down to Moosa. Would that I were young
    and could live until the time when your people will drive you out.’ 

    The Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of
    Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Will they really drive me out?’ Waraqah said,
    ‘Yes. Never has there come a man with that which you have brought, but
    he was persecuted. If I should live to see that day, I will support
    you strongly.’ But a few days later, Waraqah died, and the Revelation
    also ceased for a while, until the Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace and
    blessings of Allaah be upon him) was filled with grief.

    Muhammad ibn Shihaab said: Abu Salamah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan
    told me that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ansaari said: “The Messenger
    of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, speaking
    of that period when the revelation ceased: ‘Whilst I was walking, I
    heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the angel who had come
    to me in Hiraa’, sitting on a chair between the heavens and the earth.
    I felt scared of him, so I came home and said, “Cover me, cover me [with
    blankets]!” So they did, then Allaah revealed the words:

    “O you (Muhammad) enveloped in garments!

    Arise and warn!

    And magnify your Lord (Allaah)!

    And purify your garments!

    And keep away from Ar-Rujz (the idols)!”

    [al-Muddathir 74:1-5].’”

    Abu Salamah said: al-rujz were the idols which
    the people of the Jaahiliyyah used to worship. Then the revelation came
    frequently after that.

    (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4572; Muslim, 231)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:47 #
  48. NNL
    member

    @ Shimatoree

    I do believe for any Muslim the following answers some of the queries that you have raised. As for you Allah Hadeek Ya ibn Halal Allah Hadeek.

    The report narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i, Ibn Hibbaan and
    al-Haakim from Ibn ‘Abbaas, who said: “I said to ‘Uthmaan, ‘What made
    you put al-Anfaal which is one of the Mathaani, next to Baraa’ah
    [al-Tawbah], which is one of the Mi’een? Why did you not put the line Bismillaah
    ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem in between them when you put it at the beginning of the rest of al-Sab’
    al-Tiwaal [the long seven soorahs]?” ‘Uthmaan said: “The Messenger of
    Allaah
    (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to receive revelation of
    soorahs with many aayahs. When they were revealed, he would call his scribes and tell
    them, ‘Put these aayahs in the soorah where such-and-such is mentioned.’ Al-Anfaal
    was one of the first soorahs to be revealed in Madeenah, and Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah)
    was one of the last parts of the Qur’aan to be revealed. Its stories were similar to
    the stories mentioned in al-Anfaal, so it was thought that it was part of it. The
    Messenger of Allaah
    (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was taken [i.e.,
    died] without explaining whether it was indeed part of it, so they were put next to one
    another, and the line Bismillaahi ir’Rahmaan ir’Raheem was not written
    between them, and it [al-Tawbah] was put among the Sab’ al-Tiwaal
    [seven long soorahs].” (Al-Haakim said: its isnaad is saheeh, and al-Dhahabi agreed
    with him. Al-Mustadrak, 2/330)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:56 #
  49. shimatoree
    Member

    MG-


             You are the first person to help.

              Thank you very much.

              Now let us hope someone will answer 1 and 2.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:59 #
  50.   Those muslims who don't understand arabic, don't know what they learn from Quran? "sonay pe sohaga" 60% of Pakistan population is illitrate they can't even read Urdu.  


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