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The Feudals, good or bad….Lets discuss them!

(34 posts)
  1. The Feudals, good or bad….Lets discuss them!

    Feudals played very significant role in the creation of Pakistan since the early days of Muslim League. Bengali and Uttar Pardeshi feudals were prominent in ML since its inception and resisted the pressure from urban Muslims like Shibli Nomani to make ML an Islamic party instead of party of Muslims. A person with feudal background named Ch. Rehmat Ali coined the name Pakistan. Most of the Muslims in Muslim majority provinces were rural, who were won over to ML with the help of feudals. The road to the creation of Pakistan was finally cleared of hurdles once Punjabi and Sindhi feudals and feudals-cum-pirs joined ML during mid-1940s upon the advice of British, after failing to win British Raj’s support for separate ethnic based regional entities. Pakistanis are Pakistanis, thanks in parts to feudals’ support at that critical juncture in history.

    Pakistan was truly a bureaucratic state during the early years until about 1955. Bureaucracy ran Pakistan efficiently despite political turmoil until military started interfering directly in the politics. Ayub Khan introduced large number of feudals directly into active national and provincial level politics in order to win popular rural support and later Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto followed same strategy. Rural Pakistanis (feudals territory) did not participate in two movements, to get rid of Ayub Khan in 1969 and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in 1977, while urban Pakistanis took part enthusiastically. Later feudals joined hands with Zia Ul Haque and more recently with Musharraf. It turns out that feudals made the right decisions by staying away from movements in 1969 and 1977. Within a short duration of less than 25 years, history has exonerated them from distancing popular urban political movements. The 1969 movement led to Yahya Khan’s rule, political divisions and the cessation of East Pakistan whereas the movement in 1977 gave Pakistanis 11 eleven years of Zia ul Haque rule whose repercussions are likely to be felt for a long time to come. In the case of supporting Zia and Musharraf, it looks bad but Zia did not and Musharraf does not need feudals’ support for the continuation of dictatorships.

    Feudals are an essential ingredient of rural culture. They provide order – though imperfect one – in near absence of law enforcing and justice dispensing state apparatus. Yet rural society abides better by the common sense values better than their urban Pakistanis. Fruits are picked after ripening in rural areas whereas fruits from unprotected trees in urban areas are stolen before ever reaching ripened stage. An old bus polluting the atmosphere with smoke runs for years in rural areas whereas new buses are set on fire often in routine Friday demonstrations in urban areas. The presence of tribal chiefs and feudals at the top has definitely contributed to this order. Feudals are deep-rooted in local cultures; they are part of the folklore, traditional songs and festivals. Feudals as a class have contributed more than average in non-feudal fields such as producing poets, writers, professionals, educators, politicians, bureaucrats, military officers, etc. They have definitely contributed below average in producing religious figures, thus serving people instead of religion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:03 #
  2. NNL
    member

    Feudals very very bad.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:03 #
  3. Okay what about this...the bad feudals:

    Feudals are often charged with abusive crimes, cheating in agriculture related taxes, changing parties to side with the governing party and resistance to change traditions for modernity resulting in status quo or snail-paced changes. The frequency of abusive crimes is probably same, if not more, in rest of the society. Poor respect for law and less likelihood of retribution for abusive crimes are pervasive all over Pakistan. The powerful everywhere in Pakistan abuse poor masses. However, in the case of feudals with no sympathy in urban-based print and electronic media, the stories of abuse make headlines and acts of goodwill go unnoticed. Tax evasion is definitely worse in urban Pakistan than rural Pakistan. The tax collecting rural authorities like ‘patwaris’, ‘qanun-goh’ and ‘naib tehsildars’ have seldom become super-rich like income tax, excise and custom officers of major cities. Feudals are not the only ones who recently changed colors at the blink of an eye to side with the rulers but religious MMA and urban MQM did the same. The snail-paced progress to go with status quo is anytime better than urban-based obscurantism and retrogressive tendencies.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:07 #
  4. NNL
    member

    Hazrat Ali had instructed to Malik al-Ashtar then the governor of Egypt to give more attention to development of the land than to the collection of the tax, because tax can only be obtained by the development of the land and whoever demands tax without developing the land ruins the country and destroys the people.

    Coming from this point of view a lot of things would have changed if the agricultural lands might have been more developed.

    Feudals in lieu of maintaining the agricultural backbone of Pakistan demand too much in power and authority thus creating more and more of power flux in urban areas. If one is to see the ratio of the tax evasion in the Urban Areas and tax evasion of the Feudal lords it would be greater. also the same can be said in the terms of tax relief given to the both parties is similarly disproportionate.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:17 #
  5. Anonymous

    Sir mirza, you described role of feduals in creation of Pakistan. This probably is a different debate but the fact that Pakistan movement was run and lead by feduals (with the exception of Quaid) is itself a big question mark. It is a sad fact that Muslim League did not have an awami leadership and Quaid-e-Azam acknowledged this fact on many occassions.

    I'd also like to note another exception and that is of former East Pakistan. ML was found in East Pakistan and East Pakistani awam ran an effective campaign, at a public level, in support of Pakistan. The East-Pakistani awam was also fully aware of the goals and reasons behind the Pakistan movement. "Awami" participation in Pakistan movement came mainly from Bihar, UP and Bangal and to some extent from East Punjab.

    In West Pakistan, however, there was no active participation by general public until very late in the Pakistan movement. By no means I am blaming west Pakistanis. Infact, this is just one manifestation of the fundamental and inherent defects of feudal system. In feudal system, general population is solely dependent on the feudal and they gradually lose the sense and ability to think and decision-making. Their world rotates around chaakri of bohtaar and their ambitious nature, sense of competition, and idea of personal liberty gradually fades away over generations.

    There is a fundamental flaw in feudal system. Pakistani feudal system is an extreme form of feudalism where feudal enjoys limitless powers. Fedual runs everything that includes, but not limited to, governance, judiciary, law and order system, and rest of the social life. What makes it worse is the fact that there is no awami active participation in the manner those affairs are run, let alone the power to decide/select the individual(s) who run their lives. As a result, the fate of public rests on personal traits of the fedual, which is inherently fluid and unpredictable. The likelihood of a feudal being a good person is same as the likelihood of him being a bad person. In essence, there is no institutional or systematic form of governance.

    Any system in which individuals enjoy limitless power is bound to corrupt those individuals.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:46 #
  6. Yes, some of our political parties have claimed that feudals are the root cause of trouble in Pakistan and when empowered they will help our masses by eliminating the system once and for all. This article highlights both the good and the bad. Now we should discuss this subject among us as well.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 20:53 #
  7. NNL
    member

    You see the Feudals are so much embedded in this system that its hard to remove them from it.

    Look at India it almost finsihed off the Feudals for it knew that they might hamper prosperity.

    The argument for Feudalism might have a stance if the Feudals had sincerely worked towards the betterment of the people.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 21:00 #
  8. I will recall an incident without exactly naming the personality involved; during late Z.A Bhutto's time, right inside the national assembly, a feudal pulled out a SMG (sub machine gun) on him, just when Bhutto in his speech said that 'Jageerdari Nizam ka khatma hona zaroori hai' in his typical urdu. (he pulled that weapon from under his shawl).

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 21:03 #
  9. Anonymous

    That was a good one professor sahab.

    NNL, please read my post, that should explain why feudalism is bad. My post refute your assumptions.

    Fedualism is bad even if we had good feudals.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 21:16 #
  10. Look how the urban Pakistanis (in feudal domains) have behaved in the Past:
    The credentials of urban Pakistanis in Pakistan are equally superficial and irrational. A quick glance through some of the recent landmark events reveals the hollowness and pathetic nature of collective urban Pakistanis wisdom. In 1970’s elections, rural Pakistanis voted for Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in hope of better future whereas most urban of the urban Pakistanis voted in Jamaat-e-Islami and Jamiat-Ulema-e-Pakistan (Noorani group) candidates in hope of bringing back the golden age of Islam. Urban Pakistans passionately participated in the Pakistan National Alliance (PNA) movement, not for replacing Bhutto only but for Nizam-e-Mustafa, as the movement was named. To bring Nizam-e-Mustafa, they burned tires on the streets, burned bused on the roads, halted and bombed trains and causing extensive loss to the properties, businesses and economy. This was not the first victory for urban Pakistans. Few years earlier they were successful in getting Ahmedis declared non-Muslim using similar tactics. When finally Z. A Bhutto was overthrown in 1977, they cheered, celebrated and distributed sweets the same way as they did when another army chief committed similar treason on October 1999. Those who cheer, celebrate and distribute sweets upon the treacherous acts of army chiefs do not deserve to be heard or taken seriously in matters of democracy, respect for law, individuals human rights as well as feudals’ role in Pakistan society. Those who consider feudals a menace and biggest evil of Pakistani society have actually behaved worse than feudals.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 21:31 #
  11. Anonymous

    Moulvi inc and fedualism is no different. Their fundamental nature is the same. Feudalism is based on physical assets where moulvi inc is based on divine rules.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 21:36 #
  12. Anonymous

    Nations can sometimes make a collective error is judgement but they learn from it by not repeating the same mistake again. In fedual system, they dont have the luxury to learn and reapply.

    Please concentrate on the fundamentals, as I pointed out in my post, rather than individual events.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 21:44 #
  13. Anonymous

    This was a good thread that got buried under the wasteful halal haram and personal attacks debate.

    In principal, Pakistani fedualism is bad because there is no awami participation in this kind of system and the fate of hundres of thousands of people rest in the hands of a few whose interests are in total conflict with the awam.

    There are many other countries that had fedual systems and they susccessfully abolished them. If other countries can do it, we can do that too. We have to look into how other countries including England were able to abolish this ssytem. Should we make a house of Lords for these feduals and Commons for awam? Should we do election reforms to prohibit any person owning more than a specific area of land to run in elections? How to do land reforms?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 14:51 #
  14. shikra
    Blocked

    There is a little bit difference between Feudalism and Feudal Mentality.
    For instance Z.A. Bhutto belonged to a feudal family but he discarded the Feudal mentality to a large extent.
    Feudal Lords mostly exist in Canada, America, India and Pakistan.
    It is not so easy to eradicate the grip of Feudal Lords.
    Unfortunately in Pakistan Feudal Lords could not contribute to make a change towards Industrialization what the Feudal Lords of India, America and Canada did.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:10 #
  15. Anonymous

    Not sure if such fedual lords exist in US and Canada.
    When I say Pakistani fedual lord, I mean "khuda". Because a fedual lord "owns" villages and he himself assumes he also "owns" anyone living on the land he "owns".

    Western feudal lords are just like business persons who own land and employ people to work on them. They do not run the police department and judiciary in those areas, neither do they "own" people who work on the land he "owns".

    Probably the reason why Pakistani feudals did not contribute towards industrilization is the abundance of workers to work on their lands and almost non-existant labor cost. In industrial countries, however, the economy became more and more competitive and labor became more expensive, therefore they had to use modern technologies to stay alive in the system. It is also important to note that industrialization of agriculture largely took place after slavery was abolished in those countries. This ofcourse happened in wester countries and may or may not be applicable in Pakistan/Stouh Asia.

    In Pakistani we need to abolish this system because our institutions are not strong enough to function properly in the presence of feduals. Feduals impede strengthening of these institutions so it will be best to abolish the system instead. Infact, many European countries, including England, did land reforms and now a fedual can not own more than a specific worth of agriculture assets. Even castles and other properties were aquired by the government and were taken away from these feudals.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:22 #
  16. Feudals in Pakistan managed to muster enough power for themselves in the form of Generals, Ministers, Judges, Lawyers, Top brass of Law and Order etc are either, they themselves or close relatives.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:24 #
  17. Anonymous

    professor sahab, I edited my last post please read it again.

    You are right, who power structure is formed around this feudal class. They send one son to army, another to beauracracy, third one to politics. Public awareness can help resolve this issue.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:26 #
  18. Justapakistani
    Member

    I totally agree with mirza sb , Feudals use to trick to acquire........like if a Feudal has 4 sons, he let one to join army, one in civil service,one in politics and last to run the his feudal system, so in this way they keep the power within them!!!!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:29 #
  19. With so many feudals at hand, it remains to be a huge job to get rid of them. Though possible but its not going to be easy specially when feudals of Pakistan are also holding safe bases abroad.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:33 #
  20. Anonymous

    We should raise public aareness by writing on pkpolitics and in newspaper and other internet websites about the issue.
    We should also let all political parties to know that we will only support those political parties that promised to implelent land reforms.
    We should also support any farmers who raise their voice against fedual.
    We should do what we can do in our capacity and be reminded that drops of water make an ocean. What we do will not go in vain, however little it may be.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:33 #
  21. Adonis
    Member

    I do not agree with the premise that feudals played a prominent role in Pakistan movement.

    The main leaders in Pakistan movement were, Quaid-i-Azam, Liaquat Ali Khan, Abdul Rab Nishtar, Khawaja Nazimuddin, Hussain Shaheed Suharwardy, Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar, Raja Ghazanfar Ali, Mirza Abul Hassan Isfahani, Maulana Zafar Ali Khan.

    All of these leaders belonged to the middle class. Only Liaquat Ali Khan belonged to a nawab family but that family had lost most of its landholdings by that time. When Liaquat Ali Khan was martyred in 1951, his bank balance was 16 rupees.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:36 #
  22. Anonymous

    As you can notice, many of these names belong to East Pakistan and Mumbai based leaders.
    Nishtar I believe was a feudal.
    Also important to note is harly any of these names involve people who originaly belonged to the areas that are now Pakistan. You forgot to mention the name of Saeen G.M. Syed.

    You look at first national assembly of Pakistan and you will notice lots of feduals sitting in them although the ratio was less than the following assemblies.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:42 #
  23. Adonis
    Member

    Nishtar was no feudal. He was a middle class lawyer. Ghazanfar Ali and Zafar Ali Khan were from Punjab and Nishtar from NWFP.

    G M Syed was initially in Muslim League but played no prominent part in Pakistan movement and left Muslim League before 1946 elections.

    The most prominent Muslim League leader in Sindh was Abdullah Haroon who was a businessman but no feudal.

    I think the misconception that Pakistan movement leaders were all feudals has been deliberately cultivated by "revisionist" historians like Mubarak Ali. Any person who studies history from diverse sources would not be fooled by such propaganda.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:54 #
  24. Anonymous

    Jouhar brothers were the true leaders of Pakistan movement along with many other. Not sure about Ghazanfar and Zafar Ali Khan.

    GM Syed was instrumental in passing a resolution from Sindh assembly in favor of Pakistan. Sindh assembly was the first assembly in whole Hindustan to have passed such resolution.

    Anyways, I am going off-track here. Back to fedual systems and their strength and weaknesses.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 15:59 #
  25. skyfacts
    Blocked

    mirza sb congrats to you,
    i think charicter of a person counts no matter who is he..
    Unfortunatly our sysytem have no filter to disqualify a person if he is not GOOD,just before going to election..
    Article 62 and 63 are their but always avoided look what this article says actually,

    Disqualification of members
    The criteria for disqualification of members of a Provincial Assembly is established by Articles 63, 63A, 113 and 127. A person shall be disqualified from being elected or chosen as, and from being, a member of the Provincial Assembly if the member:

    1.is of unsound mind and has been so declared by a competent court; or
    2.is an undischarged insolvent; or
    3.ceases to be a citizen of Pakistan, or acquires the citizenship of a foreign State; or
    4.holds an office of profit in the service of Pakistan other than an office declared by law not to disqualify its holder; or
    5.is in the service of any statutory body of any body which is owned or controlled by the Government or in which the Government has a controlling share or interest; or
    6.is propagating any opinion, or acting in any manner, prejudicial to the Ideology of Pakistan, or the sovereignty, integrity or security of Pakistan, or morality, or the maintenance of public order, or the integrity or independence of the judiciary of Pakistan, or which defames or brings into ridicule the judiciary or the Armed Forces of Pakistan; or
    7.has been convicted by a court of competent jurisdiction on a charge of corrupt practice, moral turpitude or misuse of power or authority under any law for the time being in force; or
    8.he has been dismissed from the service of Pakistan or service of a corporation or office set up or controlled by the Provincial Government or a Local Government on the grounds of misconduct or moral turpitude; or
    9.has been removed or compulsorily retired from the service of Pakistan or service of a corporation or office set up or controlled by the Provincial Government or a Local Government on the grounds of misconduct or moral turpitude; or
    10.has been in the service of Pakistan or of any statutory body or any body which is owned or controlled by the Government or in which the Government has a controlling share or interest, unless a period of two years has elapsed since he ceased to be in such service; or
    11.is found guilty of a corrupt or illegal practice under any law for the time being in force, unless a period of five years has elapsed from the date on which that order takes effect; or
    12.has been convicted under section 7 of the Political Parties Act, 1962 (III of 1962), unless a period of five years has elapsed from the date of such conviction; or
    13.whether by himself or by any person or body of persons in trust for him or for his benefit or on his account or as a member of a Hindu undivided family, has any share or interest in a contract, not being a contract between a cooperative society and Government, for the supply of goods to, or for the execution of any contract or for the performance of any service undertaken by, Government.

    SO THESE LAWS NEED TO BE IMPLEMENTED ONLY THAN NO ONE WILL END UP WITH CURRENT SYSTEM AS ILLEGAL....

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:05 #
  26. Thanks skyfacts,

    'i think charicter of a person counts no matter who is he..'
    very well said skyfacts. BTW it quite a study what you have posted here.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:10 #
  27. Anonymous

    Thank you skyfacsts for posting the article from Pakistani constitution but I think this is incomplete. Where is Zia's ammendment that call for a candidate to be a good namazi and rozaydaar muslim??

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:17 #
  28. skyfacts
    Blocked

    May be its incomplete but has something again good to be implemented.And i am sure if implemented to the current assembly than...........ALLAH KNOWS HOW MANY WILL STAY THEIR..

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:28 #
  29. Fahim23
    Member

    I personally am aware of persons who are owners of 1000s of acre land and are god father of their people. They look after their people and assist them in the times of need.

    Having said that I think Feudals like any authoritative position have the tendency to get corrupt as every power ultimately reaches to that point. The grand father feudal may be kind and gentle towards his people, but thn the son feudal starts behaving like god and people often don't have any way to stop them as they simply inherit the power and wealth. To quote a classic example from Sindh, Pir Syed Sabghatullah Shah Pagaro was a brave and great man who fought with britishers and was ultimately hanged by them. But his son Shah Mardan shah (aka pir pagaro) is a horrid, nasty human like thing. His grandsons are even worst!

    I think the exploitative nature of Feudals was induced by Britishers when they awarded their favorites with huge land and used them as tools to control local population. Before that "wadero" in Sindhi society at least was a title for noble name. It literally means great man and often they used to be poorer in terms of financial status. The wealthiest class in Sindh was of Hindus who have always been sharp and agile in trade and business then their muslim counterparts. Nevertheless "wadero similar to jirga system" system thrived and people had food and life security.

    In sub-continent the exploitative nature of feudals were first promoted and encouraged by Britishers and then when Pakistan came into being by the Dictators. Despite that feudalism is evading day by day - and their mosterous role is exaggerated in some cases which I don't mind as it helps to stimulate the process.

    ps: @semirza congratulations for becoming new moderator.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 19:34 #
  30. Thanks Fahim23. True that British awarded huge tracts of land from Sindh and Punjab, while NWFP and Baluchistan is another story. The sardars and maliks did opted for Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 19:50 #
  31. Fahim23
    Member

    @semirza

    I'm not sure about who opted for Pakistan and for what anymore. Leaders of Muslim League were closer to their british masters then the leaders of Congress. And all the leaders of Muslim leagure were part of the elite including Quaid-e-Azam. Muslim league had never been an awami party.

    Balochistan (more thn 50% of Pakistan) never opted for Pakistan it is occupied terriroty.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 20:12 #
  32. No, the tribals followed their leaders and did opted for Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 20:14 #
  33. Fahim23
    Member

    @semirza

    tribals of NWFP - yes
    tribals of Balochistan - No!

    Balochistan for one whole year has its own assembly and government until the Pakistan's armed troops forced the khan of Qalat to become part of Pakistan.

    Though in NWFP also, leaders like Bacha khan were against the creation of Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 20:18 #
  34. Adonis
    Member

    British convened a jirga called Shahi Jirga consisting of all major tribes to decide on the future of Baluchistan in 1947.

    Even though congress people like Abdul Samad Achakzai were opposing Pakistan, still the majority of the tribals voted for becoming a part of Pakistan thanks to the efforts of Qazi Eisa,Jahangir Jogezai and Jaffar Jamali.

    After that the only issue left was the future of princely states. Lasbela and Kharan immediately joined Pakistan. Kalat joined later but its crown prince disgreed with that decision and went to exile in Afghanistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 20:55 #

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