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The Golden period- by a German Professor.

(36 posts)
  1. raheb
    Member

    Usually I am NOT fond of cut and paste. I hardly read such references as I am more interested to read what the person have his own views. BUT following article probably published in Dawn, was very interesting for me as a German professor express his feelings and observations in education, in Pakistan. Credit goes to Dr Atta-ur-Rehman, who now resigned from his post due to his unsatisfaction with new regime. Fact is in last 8 years hundresa and thousands of Pakistani students are taking higher education in different universities around the world, and Pak. govt is giving them scholarships. These students- as I know many of them are SHOWING OUTSTANDING results in many universities. SOME THING to be PROUD of for all Pakistanis.
    BUT for some "election and Democracy" is more important, NO matter WHAT result nation will get of. This following aticles is from German Professor.

    Now what these democracy lovers will say on it???????????????

    raheb

    The golden period

    By Prof Dr Wolfgang Voelter

    For weeks now, I have followed the strange and mean campaigns of some Pakistani scientists and politicians against the efforts of the Higher Education Commission (HEC) and its former Chairman Prof Dr Atta-ur-Rahman. The accusations are based on such meanness, malice or incompetence that as a friend of Pakistan and being involved for almost 35 years in the higher education of this country and having had the privilege of being one of the very few foreign scientists honoured by the Government of Pakistan with Civil Awards, I feel obliged to break my silence.

    In 1974, when I was sent to Pakistan on an identification trip by the German Government to look for a cooperation partner, I visited about 15 heads of research institutions throughout Pakistan, and, strongly disappointed, I found a vast scientific desert in the country: sophisticated instruments, donations from abroad, out of order, empty libraries, laboratories lacking chemicals and frustrated professors.

    But there was one exception, the so-called Postgraduate Institute of Chemistry, Karachi University, founded by Prof Salimuzzaman Siddiqui and developed later by Dr Atta, and I could only confirm the impressions of the journalist, late Azim Kidwai, who wrote in Dawn: "One has to visit to believe it. There is at least one scientific institution in Pakistan that is comparable to any of that breed in the most-advanced countries; not only the way it is equipped and maintained, but also the way, people work in it. There appears no element of lousiness. Dedication, hard work, excellence pour into test tubes."

    These experiences made the selection of my cooperation partner easy. Based on my 700-page expert report, finally five million DM were granted by the German government for the Karachi-Tuebingen Project. The overwhelming success of the HEJ Research Institute in Karachi, Dr Atta's intellectual capacity, dedication and enthusiasm about science and his keenness to eliminate lousiness and ineptitude were the reasons for Prof Atta's merit-based nomination as minister of Science and Technology and later on as federal minister and chairman of the HEC.

    And a miracle happened. The scenario of education, science and technology in Pakistan changed dramatically after Prof Atta's nomination as never before in the history of Pakistan. The chairperson of the Senate Standing Committee on Education recently announced it as "Pakistan's golden period in higher education."

    Due to Dr Atta's efforts in a short period of two years, between 2000 to 2002, Pakistan made spectacular progress in Information Technology and became the first in the entire region to have its own education satellite — Paksat 1 — in space.

    In a short period of five years, university enrolment almost tripled and efforts to promote research have resulted in a 400 per cent increase in international publications and a 600 per cent increase in foreign citations of the work of Pakistani authors. During 1947-2003, not a single university in Pakistan could be ranked among the top 600 of the world, but today three Pakistani universities belong to this prestigious group, with the National University of Science and Technology at No 376 (Times, Higher Education, UK rankings).

    I remember visiting a number of libraries in universities in Pakistan in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s and one did not find even half a dozen of the latest journals there. Today, under the HEC digital library initiative, every public sector university has free access to over 25,000 of the latest international journals, 45,000 text books and research monographs from 220 international publishers.

    It is not an ordinary thinking to bring the world's top universities within the boundaries of Pakistan. I hope the visionary initiative of Dr Atta to establish foreign technical universities in partnership with Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Austria, and China, will be enthusiastically implemented by the new government and not shelved.

    One of Dr Atta's most important achievements is the excitement that he has been able to create in Pakistan's brightest youth to opt for careers in education and research. Almost three thousand students have been sent abroad for PhD to top universities in the world through the HEC scholarship scheme. Dr Hoodbhoy is completely wrong when he criticises the selection process for foreign scholarships and claims that the students sent abroad were weak.

    Almost half a dozen HEC PhD students worked under my guidance at our university in Tuebingen. And so far none of them failed or left our university without publishing work in journals of high repute. The HEC selection process was completely transparent and merit-based with the final selection being made by teams of eminent foreign professors who specially came to Pakistan and personally had face to face interviews with potential candidates.

    Dr Atta's (enforced?) resignation as HEC chief was a shock for the scientific community inside and outside Pakistan. Are the conclusions of the reports on the evaluation of HEC by foreign analysts, funeral sermons for the end of Pakistan's `Golden period in higher education?'

    "We are impressed with the breadth, scope, and depth of the reforms implemented by the HEC since 2002. No other developing country we know has made such spectacular progress." (USAID report).

    "I have worked in many countries in South America, the Middle East, North Africa, and in Russia and India, over the last six years. None in my view, with the exception of India, has the potential of Pakistan for the UK university sector, largely because of the dynamic, strategic leadership of the Chairman of HEC." (British Council report).

    Day by day more and more major concerns of university students are accumulating on the Internet, and I would like to mention here only a few of them:

    • "I am really feeling bad that they cannot replace anyone who has capabilities like him. I am really worried about the future of HEC and HEC scholars outside the country."

    • "The nation cannot afford the loss of Dr Atta as Chairman HEC. At present, there is none equal to Dr Atta who can work for the betterment of higher education in Pakistan."

    • "The education sector will feel like an orphan in the absence of Dr Atta."

    As I understood from the recent visit of our Foreign Minister Walter Steinmeier, Pakistan is at present suffering from a financial crisis. One of the criticisms against Dr Atta is that too much money has been spent on higher education at the cost of lower education. In the last financial year Rs248 billion were spent on nationwide education, of which only Rs28 billion (11 per cent of the total national education budget) went to higher education, while Rs220 billion were spent on lower level education, and according to the international norms, at least 25-30 per cent of the national budget should be spent on higher education. However, reducing the budget for the education sector would be the worst decision that could be made in Pakistan's parliament: Education is the most effective remedy against terrorism; education is the fundamental basis for the prosperity of a nation, what should be supported with first priority by the government.

    As a well-wisher of Pakistan, I was greatly saddened by the completely unjustified criticisms of HEC programmes. Pakistan should be grateful for the leadership provided by Dr Atta in science and technology, information technology and higher education sectors over the last eight years. He does not belong to any political party but is a scientist of the highest international standing, and his eminence and political neutrality is proved by the fact that he is the most decorated scientist of Pakistan.

    Professor Atta-ur-Rahman grew up in an international scientific community, he knows in detail about the needs of the students and scientists. He wanted and still wants to realise a vision: to launch Pakistan's higher education system from the platform of backwardness to a western state-of-the- art level. It was to be expected that the seniors of the Pakistani scientific establishment could mentally not follow the new era. Of course, fundamental parliamentary decisions need some time to prove their suitability for the nation, and then to become adapted to the needs of the country.

    Though Dr Atta is a visionary, yet his inspiring intellect would not allow him to overcome insurmountable obstacles. He is receptive to criticism without losing his unfailing courtesy and flexible to change his mind; but arguments must be convincing. From my decades lasting experience with Pakistani bureaucracy, I would foresee a national tragedy, if the new government fails to make use of the unique expertise of one of Pakistan's brightest brains.

    The writer, who has been decorated with the Hilal-i-Pakistan and Sitara-i-Pakistan, is a professor at the Eberhard Karls University, Tuebingen, Germany.

    Posted 3 years ago on 24 Nov 2008 20:39 #
  2. azeem1
    Member

    most rather 90% of the top level appointments by musharf were excellent.

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Nov 2008 12:57 #
  3. raheb
    Member

    So SMALL reaction on this post, SHOWS, it is of NO interest for JS, Beenai, Shikra and CO. Because it SHOWS the positive side of Musharaff period and these people have got their so called Demo- cracy so it is now obligatory to curse all earliar, BUT time will show HOW after clever these people are.

    raheb

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Nov 2008 20:16 #
  4. raheb
    Member

    AND all these I named TALK so much about Education! Education! Education! but see everyone they have NOTHING to say now about disasterous steps taken towards education and How a German professor shows his anxiety, BUT our so called After clevers has NOTHING to respond with.
    Pakistani students came out in huge quantity for higher studies and they are SHOWING fastastic results around the world. Professors in many foreign universities are FULL of Admirations for Pakistani students and their outstanding results.
    Where are you, The self-curser?????????????

    raheb

    raheb

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Nov 2008 20:21 #
  5. hussainmehdi
    Member

    please ask german Prof Dr Wolfgang Voelter that:

    what is the cost of education in any university in china for bachelor or master's degree?

    two lakh rupees for two years ???

    funny experts...funny posters... these foreign experts have been developing pakistan for last sixty years.

    and look at pakistan!

    no electricity, no water, no food, no job, no education, except IMF.

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Nov 2008 21:09 #
  6. hussainmehdi
    Member

    there were also 'foreign expert mediators' who assisted to conclude pak-bharat water accord?

    where are those foreign experts now?

    why they dont write any thing in support of pakistan, when bharat siezes pakistani waters?

    why?

    if, these foreign experts are truthful and honest then why they dont condemn bharat?

    these foreign experts are dying for atta,
    but have no mercy, when pak farmers die because of shortage of water.

    what a justice, favor and honesty.

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Nov 2008 21:29 #
  7. FUTURE
    Member

    thnx raheb,
    mush was a gr8 leader and an intellectual. ppl like js and shikra will never understand the contributions made by mush because their job was to show pakis as bad. they cannot tolerate Pakistan succeeding as it has. they bring up false nonsense trying to degrade Pakistan. they r merely loudspeakers for the ignorant and maniacal landlords who wish to extend their rule upon Pakistan. some r even indians posing to be pakis that have been deliberately planted. but little do they know!
    geo is one of their tools launched to mislead people about Pakistan and Mush. all these twisted elements are deliberate attempts to make Pakistan look bad. most of these self-procalimed scholars know nothing of democracy and simply regurgitate wat has been either shoved down their throats or wat they make-up themselves.
    to them it doesnt matter they just cant stand to see Pakistan ahead. they brought this empty farce called democracy to put veils on the minds and eyes of the people. there is no democracy anywhere in this world except maybe in a small village!!! its a load of crap to appease the masses!!! anyone who has actually studied political sciences knows that this is true!!! the simple reason for this reality is that intellectuals and people of power believe that an average person is incapable of making important decisions concerning the governance of a nation!!! so they hire such loudpieces to chant garbage everywhere while they control and govern. 2 words =>>>>Electoral College!!!
    i dont disagree with the electoral college and i firmly agree with the concept that an average person like these self-proclaimed scholars, is totally incapable of deciding a nation's FUTURE!!!! But i disagree with the way these loudpieces throw around crap!!!

    FUTURE looks educated and democratic!!! ;-)

    Posted 3 years ago on 27 Nov 2008 2:10 #
  8. hussainmehdi
    Member

    thnx raheb,

    mush was a gr8 leader and an intellectual.

    have you forgotten 'shershah bridge collapsed' ??

    what a gr8 intellect!!!

    have German professor Dr Wolfgang Voelter said any thing on that side of great mush's intellect ???

    please tell this too.

    there are thousands of examples of mush's greatness, that people can never forget including atta.

    what's equals to good+bad?
    of course, bad.
    this is common sense.

    and, of course, mush and his followers are above commonsense.

    Posted 3 years ago on 27 Nov 2008 2:41 #
  9. FUTURE
    Member

    @hm
    no one is perfect -- u of all the ppl should know that!!! its foolish to be in denial, we r humans and we r imperfect!!! we all have our shortcomings but he is better than all the other candidates out there by a huge margin!!! a bridge collapsed --lol--u r kiddin right!!! lol - i rest my case!!! next time someones lota falls in the toilet make sure to blame mush as well!!! ;-)

    FUTURE looks well planned!!! ;-)

    Posted 3 years ago on 27 Nov 2008 3:02 #
  10. hussainmehdi
    Member

    Most Are Not Perfect.

    So, Please Select Thieves.

    Nice Advice.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Nov 2008 0:00 #
  11. @Azeem,
    90% ppl hired by Mush was perfect........wow.
    great analysis.
    do u think an imported PM was perfect to sell out steel mill at the cost of peanuts ?he was perfect to export all the wheat of the country and make all the countrymen hungry ,deprived of ROTI?
    do u think that CBR chairman who can drink and dance was a good pick by Musharraf?
    an alcholic Salman Taseer ,leading black sheeps of media was a good choice by Musharraf?
    last but not the least .
    2 number CJ Dogar was a good choice of him?

    SUBHAAN ALLAH.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Nov 2008 6:02 #
  12. azeem1
    Member

    @beenai
    cj dogar is among the 10%.
    dancing in a private party and having a drink is not a crime.

    Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 11:00 #
  13. @ Mr. FUTURE,
    I would very humbly request that one should be careful to make a sweeping statement and Fatwa without proper homework.
    Here is what you wrote about me:

    "mush was a gr8 leader and an intellectual. ppl like js and shikra will never understand the contributions"
    This is not correct.
    I was a staunch supporter of President Musharaf after the incident of 9/11, though I extremely hate Military Dictatorship.
    I acknowledged his positive contributions at my first and last meeting with him at the Marriott Wardman Hotel Washington D.C. on September 21, 2006.
    (I will not put the video due to security purpose)
    I turned against him on the Issue of Justice Iftikhar Chaudry.
    I turned against him, realizing, according to my assessment, that he had gone out of juice to deliver anything more positive to the Nation of Pakistan.
    There is a time for CHANGE.

    Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 11:29 #
  14. azeem1
    Member

    sheikh sab FUTURE wants ur opinion on this particular post "the golden period". not your political history.

    Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 12:59 #
  15. "I was a staunch supporter of President Musharaf after the incident of 9/11, though I extremely hate Military Dictatorship."

    "I turned against him on the Issue of Justice Iftikhar Chaudry.
    I turned against him, realizing, according to my assessment, that he had gone out of juice to deliver anything more positive to the Nation of Pakistan."

    What else he wants to know?
    Is that not enough and sufficent?

    Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 13:08 #
  16. As correctly pointed out by Raheb, Beena is only interested in the negative aspects of Musharrafs regime, rather than a rational judgement of it which would involve both the negative AND the postive.

    Musharraf was a great leader, he just ended up making so many mistakes in his last year, 2007, but until early 2007, he was a great leader. I think he revolutionized Pakistan. The free media that we see today, the giant improvement in infrastructure compared to before, the giant improvement in higher education as compared to before, the economic development and strengthening of the financial sector, the foreign investment, the social liberalisation.

    The export of a relatively small amount of wheat, as has been stated a billion times before, had nothing to do with the wheat shortage and food inflation. That was an international crisis which no govt. in the world could do anything about.

    The guy (Shaukat, although Im not a big fan) worked from 1999 to 2007, and, you only found one event to judge him by, steel mills, like I said, some people only ever see half the story.

    That same CBR chairman increased the tax revenue of Pakistan from I think less than Rs. 200 billion to over Rs. 1 trillion. What he does in his private life has nothing to do with you or me, despite what Hamid Mir thinks. Same goes for Salman Taseer, plus Salman Taseer is a figure-head, he doesnt really have much of a job.

    Posted 3 years ago on 15 Dec 2008 18:22 #
  17. azeem1
    Member

    @js
    have u turned against zardari on any issue?

    Posted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 6:46 #
  18. I dont think JS is a big fan of Zardari, like he was of Benazir or ZA Bhutto.

    I personally am not a big fan of Zardari and dont really consider him a visionary or a genius, atleast not yet. Infact, I used to hate him a lot. But I am going to reserve my judgement on him and wait another, lets say 18 months before making up my mind. But I am strongly opposed to the good for nothing useless issue-less constant criticism, insulting and bashing of any and every govt. which has become a norm in the Pakistani public and media.

    Posted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 18:19 #
  19. One should evaluate the status of a ruler after a reasonable and logical term of the tenure.
    I waited for 7 years to make a change on my preference and joining the forces shouting, Go Musharraf Go.
    It is too early and pre-mature to start shouting Go Zardari Go.
    I am sorry to accept that I am little bit slow and patient to change on choices.
    Give PPP at least Two years to show thier worth.

    Posted 3 years ago on 16 Dec 2008 19:27 #
  20. Agreed.

    You dont have to be sorry, actually ideally everyone should wait a reasonable amount of time before making a judgement on their performance. That is why we have an election every 5 years, and, not every 5 months.

    The way the people and the media change their minds and start on this Go X Go nonsense, if they had their way, we would have a new govt. every 10 months.

    Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 0:17 #
  21. qali88
    Member

    Nicely said JS and s_p

    Totally with you on this, i am tired of people waiting for every action of the government and then criticizing it to the max. Do not get me wrong, i am no way accepting zardari as a president, but he is here now let's just see what he is made up of. Let's all save our 'GO X GO' slogans for another 18 months.
    Then i be back in Pakistan and we can go on the streets together :P which i am very certain will be the case with the way they are handling things, but again, let's just wait and try to see the 'big' picture.
    Patience is a virtue like they say.

    Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 2:21 #
  22. qali88
    Member

    And we must also recognize mush's doings, of course he did take some very good decisions for the country, but there is a limit. And that limit was when he sacked the Justice Iftikhar Chaudry, which has never been done in any so called democratic country in the world. (not that i know of) please correct me if i am wrong.

    Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 2:23 #
  23. Umm. Nawaz Sharif pretty much got into a tussle with CJ Sajjad Shah where Nawaz Sharif conspirated with the help of Rafiq Tarar to throw out CJ Sajjad Shah, Rafiq Tarar was rewarded with the Presidency for his successful efforts to buy the rest of the judges. This climaxed in a mob of PMLN gundas who were brought in from Lahore attacking the Supreme Court while a bench was hearing a case against Nawaz Sharif.

    I personally think it was a big mistake by Musharraf to sack Chaudhry Iftikhar and a bad move that eventually ended his rule. But I am not a big fan of Chaudhry Iftikhar, I mean the guy is no angel. You know the thing thats going on with Dogars corruption he got extra marks for his daughter and got her admission, well, Chaudhry Iftikhar did the same kind of thing. That was actually reported and uncovered by Ansar Abbasi too! But then the people went emotional and crazy when he was suspended and they THOUGHT he was some freaking angel. The case against him was not even heard and the reference was rejected on A TECHNICALITY. Now everyone thinks he is some angel savior or something.

    Nonetheless, his dismissal was a mistake, and, Musharraf probably realizes that it was his biggest mistake. A man with high popularity of 60% to 70% for 7 years and good performance whom no one though would be going away for another half a decade, he was dethroned in like 12 months.

    Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 7:19 #
  24. The Pakistan's Innings was a disastrous where most of the best and experienced batsmen were removed out of the team or sent back to the pavilion just within the first ten overs without getting a chance to provide a solid base. (1947-1958)
    The wicket keepers (Ayub, Yahya, Zia, Musharraf) managed to enter and capture the playground without any experience and proper net-practice and decided to handle the bat and ball at the same time.
    (In the game of cricket normally a wicket keeper is very rarely used as bowler.)

    They felt comfortable and preferred to play without bothering about fielders, umpires and spectators. (Executive, Judiciary, Legislature)

    However they managed to stay at the crease much longer and unfortunately even playing the 40 mandatory overs they could not make an impressive score to bring Pakistan at the Victory Stand.
    The members of their teams were served with gorgeous Lunch Breaks and Tea intervals.

    The genuine batsmen were declared LBW, Run Out or thrown out of the field making the Future of fair cricket, doubtful in Pakistan

    Posted 3 years ago on 17 Dec 2008 14:35 #
  25. qali88
    Member

    nicely put JS
    nice way of putting two things together which are going down the spiral ^.^ cricket and politics, but the thing is at least in cricket we had a golden age (Imran Khan's 1992 world cup), when was that the case in our politics...

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Dec 2008 3:35 #
  26. azeem1
    Member

    qali88
    pervez musharaf is very much imran khan of politics.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Dec 2008 7:16 #
  27. onlydil69
    Member

    Fiend do you know who is present Minister of Education of your Country(Paksitan)
    Do you know he is the same person who had sold 5 girls in Jirga in balochistan.
    Our nation like to fall and they feel sliding in fun fair.
    Mr, Mushrraf had gave life to Media.. what else bad he did, but this was great action.
    He had hired people on merred basis & then people had gave some think in there period.

    How can any body compare Mr,Mushrraf time personalities with present foolish wadaras all around.. Friend if we want our country to imporve for better, we should not suport any kind un-educated minister, we should not allowed ministeries for less then masters education......
    Mr,Musharraf is an patriotic person, Mr Zardari family lives in Dubai & UK..
    He came by wadara system.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Dec 2008 11:00 #
  28. qali88
    Member

    lol @azeem1, i am sure he is...
    in a parallel opposite universe, where he did not sack the CJ, or kill innocent girls the lal masjid or sell his people for hard cash. Unless those are the NEW qualities we are looking for in our 'leaders.'

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Dec 2008 15:25 #
  29. raheb
    Member

    I DO NOT agree that one wait 1-2 years and then start with GO! GO! as master JS put.
    Pakistan need a person sit strongly at least 20 years. Pakistan's problems NO one govt can solve in 2 or 10 years. Musharaf was on RIGHT track and consistency of his policies were needed, BUT so called democrats came and reverse almost all positive steps which Musharaf took. This is a CURSE that as soon as e new govt come the first they do is to reject and stop all steps taken by earliar govt. It waste millions and millions of dollers and all time invested wasted. One of the most positive STEP Musharaff took was to sent many many Pakistani's abroard for higher education. It never happened before that so many Pakistani's are getting higher education on Pakistan's scholarships. NOW these so called democrats of PPP are closing that channel also.
    Problem is Intolerance among us. A person work over all good, but one mistake can ruin the whole efforts of years and GO GO starts. See the history, we send all leaders by GO GO. So what one can expect for these democrates in 2 years? Result will be GO! GO! as history says. Dictator, Armyman, not elected YET Musharaff was honest and sicerely tried to put country back. Many of his policies were just fantastic, BUT inplanted from out side a system in which heards are counted but NOT weight.... that we got. NOW we have that system BUT colours of Pakistan once again fading.
    We have 6 donkeys who won over 5 horses, NOW rest of nation should eat ****, soon come GO GO.

    raheb

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Dec 2008 23:05 #
  30. ahmad_80
    Member

    India is progressing rapidly in the field of science and technology by setting up hundreds of universities and expanding a huge network of IIT in the country while exporting humane resource to Europe and America in the form of scientists and engineers which are now influencing the policies of these countries. Whereas, Pakistan is still exporting illiterate humane resource to these countries. Pakistanis are unable to defend country abroad simply because it is a matter of competition between educated indians and illetrate pakistani labour force. Unfortunately, A few months ago, landlords like "ishaq khakwani", "Faryal Talpur", "Azra Fazal Pechohu" were barking over a person who worked marvellously for higher education and provided basic R&D facilities in universities in order to develop a technological base of country. Mr. Atta will be remembered for long time in the history of this unfortunate nation for his tangible achievements in the field of higher education. He was one who served HEC for 8 years without getting any salary (Reference: See Q&As of 7th and 8th session 2008 of National Assembly). Shame on you, Mr Khakwani and other accompanying landlords. You have an evil mentality. It is unfortunate for the nation that illiterate landlords are now going to decide the future of higher education in Pakistan. Personally, I am not astonished over this decision as it is a direct outcome of the propaganda staged against HEC a few months ago. Off-course, politics of these landlords will flourish only if the people remain illiterate.

    Posted 3 years ago on 27 Dec 2008 17:01 #
  31. Anonymous

    I don't know why we believe in personalities not institutions.

    Dr.Atta may be next to prophet but ,at the end a human being. End of the day he has to die. In 7 years at the helm of affairs , he couldn't establish process so what a bigger failure could be ?

    Same for Mushfarf, He was not GOD. What he did ? Any process or institution ? None.

    Gentleman , plz beleive in processes and institutions not persons.

    Posted 3 years ago on 27 Dec 2008 17:18 #
  32. You cannot set up instituitions in Pakistan, because, even if you set them up, the next set of rulers will come and dismantle them. Take the example of NAB for instance. Now I know NAB was involved in a lot of horrible things and was used for political purposes and selective accountability, but, other than that, it still did an amazing job. Given a tiny budget, NAB had recovered I believe close to 600 billion Rupees in 7 years. Now why did the greater champion of the people come in and abolish the NAB?

    Instituitions my friend, rely on people; they are only as good as the people that run them.

    Plus this is a big problem in Pakistan. You can set up all the instituitions you want. But then the next set of rulers comes and turns everything on its head.

    There is only one real functioning and proper INSTITUITION in Pakistan, that is the armed forces. The reason for that is that the members of the armed forces have discipline and complete dedication to their job and loyalty to their instituition/country. This is because from the start, from day 1 they have dedication and discipline drilled into them. Thats the only way they even survive there. Plus they have a lot of nationalism and patriotism drilled into them too (which is necessary to make them fight).

    I think in Pakistan every instituition has its unique set of problems.

    For instance take the police. The biggest problem in the police is lack of proper pay. If you pay someone 9000 Rs, they obviously need to find other ways to make ends meet. In New York a 100 years ago, the police was just as corrupt because they were paid peanuts. The motorway police in Pakistan is not corrupt, you know why? Because they are well paid. So that all depends on the economy. Pakistan is too poor to afford a well paid police.

    Take for instance the State Bank, that has its own set of problems. Its biggest problem is its lack of independence from the govt. The governors are appointed directly by the govt. and the govt. has too much influence on the central bank. The term of the governor is too long and the governors tend to have much more power and too little power rests with the board. So how can you make the state bank independent? Well, there is not much you can do. You cannot legislate your way to independence, specially not in Pakistan.

    There is one simple way to make instituitions independent and efficient, PRIVATIZE! You can privatize the media, or the railways, or PIA or other airlines. But you cant privatize the lahore high court, or the parliament, or the federal investigation agency.

    So building instituitions, its not as simple as it sounds.

    Posted 3 years ago on 27 Dec 2008 18:50 #
  33. Anonymous

    @Secular_Pak,

    NAB was not formed to recover money. It just did it work. Harressing civil servants and politicans.

    About armed forces, their funcitoning can be judged by their core fucntions .Their biggest ever surrender in 1971 ? by Kargil episode ? This is despite by the fact that no one else intererferes or can interfere in their "mamlaat"

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Dec 2008 4:10 #
  34. Ashkan,

    This is exactly the kind of negative pathetic and lame thinking our society suffers from. They see all the negatives in the world, but, they cant see one positive.

    I actually myself admitted to you that NAB was misused and abused for political purposes and it carried out selective accountability. But, DESPITE THAT NEGATIVE, NAB actually did a wonderful job, it recovered close to Rs. 600 BILLION between 1999 and 2007 for the national exchequer.

    1971 is a long time ago. I said the armed forces are the only functioning instituition in Pakistan, I did not say they are unbeatable or perfect. Compare the armed forces to the parliament for instance, or the Supreme Court, or PIA, or the political parties.

    If India is hesitating to even think about attacking Pakistan today. Is it because of Hamid Mir? Or Ch. Iftikhar? Is it because of national assembly or State Bank of Pakistan or WAPDA? Is it because of Zardari or Gilani? or Ahmed Mukhtar?

    Ofcourse Pakistani army lost many times. It faced a much bigger rival. But it is a proper functioning instituition, the only properly functioning govt. instituition in the country.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Dec 2008 12:01 #
  35. azeem1
    Member

    @sacular_ pakistan
    very true. indian defence budget is almost 10 times of paksitan. we should give this credit to our army.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Dec 2008 12:28 #
  36. Anonymous

    @Secular,

    U are a very informed man , so NAB collected 700 billions in 7 years . Can u please correct me where it has gone ? Was it included in the budget amounts anywhere during this era ?

    Whats your source of info ?

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Dec 2008 12:42 #

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