PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

The Sectarian Divide...How, and When we will get rid of it?

(132 posts)
  1. @all
    Today was Friday, while hearing the Friday Khutba, a thought occurred and I found myself comparing the Khutba as delivered here and the way it is delivered in Pakistan. In our locality in Pakistan, we had two Mosques. One Sunni and the other Wahabi. Every Friday, the Imams would refer to each other’s sects indirectly; that soon always broke out into a verbal brawl and all the locality would listen to it as all abuse (in fact abuse) was being blasted at each other through the loudspeakers.

    I also thought about the long names of these clerics that almost always end with the name of the madrassa or the name of the cleric from whom they got educated for Islamic Theology. Could it be that the names are also an incentive for division among the Muslims, as they fondly prefer to be known by the last names that links them to a certain Madrassa or a sect?

    Was this very isolation and sectarian divide the prime cause for the creation of armed militias like Jaish-e-Muhammed, Sipah-e-Sahaba and others, that created havoc by killing each other in late 70s and throughout 80s, driving down the wedge of animosity further deep down between the Sunni and the Shia in Pakistan and brought shame on us?

    Isn’t it time that our clerics be disciplined. Should they be barred from promoting sectarianism; by favoring their belief and defaming other’s is also a root cause of the spread of sectarianism in our society. If I am not wrong, the doings of our clerics has brought us to a stage where every other country criticizes us as if it is their right, and giving way to excuses and reasons for the imposition of westernized democratic policies upon us.

    Why this sectarianism is not favoured abroad as to an extent it is found and favoured in Pakistan? How and when we would shed it off?

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 20:31 #
  2. Anonymous

    Sir, first off sects will remain and no matter how much you debate over it they will continue to exist as they reflect difference of opinion. Now, what makes them so harmful? It is the vested interest of moulvi inc. However, without going into too much unnecessary detail, any institution that does not have an institutional or government oversight is bound to end up like our mosques, madrassas and their products i-e moulvi hazrat.

    So, to get rid of sectarian hatred and violence( and please note we can never get rid of sects), we need to do the following:

    1) Government registration and approval of madrassa curriculum
    2) Government approved madrassa teachers
    3) Government appointed Masjid Imams. Just like government appoints school teachers and send them to different areas, we need to do the same for the masjid Imams. This is how its done in many other muslim countries
    4) Government approved Friday sermon. Friday sermons may be written or approved by a body of clerics from different sects.
    5) Limit use of loudspeakers to Azan and any other official announcement only. Loudspeakers must not be used for any other purpose whatsoever no matter how noble or religious.

    I say it again, sects will continue to exist and government should not enter into an ideological debate of which sect is good or islamic or bad or unislamic. This is not government's task to begin with. Government's task is to manage the religious institution a.k.a masjid and madrasssa.
    As time pass by, sectarian hatred and fervor will automatically subside.

    On the other hand, if we start nvestigating which sect is more islamic or truthful than the other then we will end up having an even worse catastrophe on our hands.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 21:05 #
  3. @bsobaid
    You've got a point there. Well done! Yes your idea is practical. I agree with you.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 21:09 #
  4. Good common-sensical points bsobaid!

    No argument here.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 21:13 #
  5. Anonymous

    Thank you sir. However, government tried to do that a couple of years ago but it failed miserably because moulvi hazrat refused to cooperate.

    I remember watching an interview of Mufi Usmani some years ago. He was saying we dont have any problem with government oversigt however, we refuse to accept the curriculum of Lord McCaulay and then he went on and on and on and on.

    The anchor should have asked the moulvi sahab who is implementing a farangee nizaam in Madrassa? Government actually invited moulvi hazrat from different sects and asked them to design a curriculum themselves. Only thing government asked was to include MAths, Science and Pakistan Studies in the curriculum.

    As Moulvi sahab went all crazy over musharraf and amreeka over the question of madrassa reform, I was wondering why this TV anchor is not stopping moulvi sahab from going off topic and following up on the main question.

    Anyways, I hope government look into this issue.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 21:15 #
  6. I would recall a very old incident that happened in Lahore. General Musa was the governor of Pubjab. Tehreeq Khatm-e-Nabuwat was on full heat. Gatherings, processions and voilent attacks were simply getting out of control. General Musa called for all senior clerics from all sects, and gave them three days to discuss and arrive at a concluding decission. The venue was governor house.
    After three days, they were unable to arrive at a single decission, against Qadiyanis. General Musa informed all of them that the topic was closed and who ever was found in a procession would be hanged.
    Declaring Qadiyanis a minority-this credit goes to Z.A Bhutto.

    The cleric who went crazy was a fake, because our Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)has said that 'seek knowledge, even if you have to travel to China'. He was not saying that travel to China to seek Islam. Islam was already there. He was stressing upon the importance of 'ilm-ud-dunniya', life sciences etc.

    This hate of science by our clerics has ruined us and has converted us into dependents on western technology.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 21:57 #
  7. misalligned
    Member

    bsobaid

    every educated pakistani wants that, lekin bili kay gallay main ghanti kon bandhay. who ever take this step will be declaired Kafir.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 22:14 #
  8. Anonymous

    It is also about how government handles this issue. There is a serious trust deficit no matter who is in power. Government should come up with a smart PR policy so masses know what this change is about.
    Government should get opposition leaders and moulvi hazrat to defend the policy. If Kaira or Zardari or Fouzia Wahan try to defend the policy, no one will trust or belive them.

    Government should also bring Nawaz Sharif on board and should care less about Jamat-e-islmai and Imran Khan because they will never agree.

    Nawaz Sharif should also speak out and break his criminal silence over national affairs.

    I believe with the support of PML-N and PPPP, government can do it but there are soo many issues on hand rite now that government cant afford to touch this issue. Only if the government ministers were efficient enough :(

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 22:23 #
  9. Anonymous

    Also, moulvi hazrat are not opposing this because of their dislike or hate towards science, it is something else. Please remember, moulvi Inc. mentality is no different than a feudal mentality. No matter what the reasons are, PPP should bring PML-N on board and change this madrassa and masjid system forever and trust me, even if secular education was allowed to run the way madrassas are run, it would end up in the same mess as madrassas.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 22:27 #
  10. Like you said, all clerics should be registered, and they should qualify for scientific subjects as well other than Islamic studies.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Jul 2009 22:41 #
  11. skyfacts
    Blocked

    semirza,

    And wt about educated Jahils having no Islamic concept at all but thinks of themselves as Islamic scholars,any Islamic addition in their curriculum needed to help these come out of the this State??

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 7:54 #
  12. f06md
    Member

    bsobaid,

    Your points are worth of practicing. We have many Islamic institutes in our country but i wonder if even a single one is doing his or know his job responsibility of the modern world and modern Islamic practises.

    I think this all can be controlled with a proper institute. We have one institution: Islamic Ideology Council: We need to expand his work and we need to implement all his work. Like you said Such kind of institution can be handed over the job of curriculum then they can also be asked to control all the Madrasa in the countries and appoint Molvi's in the country. But I think that our ruler's plan is: Divide and Rule.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 8:22 #
  13. @skyfacts
    Think of me as an aducated Jahil, who has been educated in missionary convents, but he is more of a Muslim in any and every respect and aspect of life. You are innocent or stubornaly ignorant of the fact that people like me and others, being highly qualified in 'illom-e-dunia' are also well versed in Islam by the grace of Allah (ST) at a level that we are bale to effectively neutralize 'jalhils' like you any time at this forum and on any forum at an International level. If you have something positive to add, AhlenWaSehlen, otherwise buzz off. You have no right to hijack serious posts like this one. Obviously you lost control because of your tainted stereotyped, prejudiced mind that is uncapable to look beyond sectarianism. Dont Ssy ' what about'. Have balls and be direct to name out that 'who'.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 8:29 #
  14. I am proud of and moved by ideas bsobaid have provided us in this regard, and who came up with practical solutions. Hats off to bsobaid.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 8:33 #
  15. skyfacts
    Blocked

    semirza,
    But you are advising an engineer to learn and having study for Medical also..
    When you dont know at all about the Madrassa system of education than commenting would not be much usefull.
    You know at high level during final two years of(Takhasus) all the things like english,bio,chemistry,physics is must to to be excellent in FATAWAS.as without this knowledge you would not be able to decide abt many things......
    Only suffiecient information abt DARSE NIZAMI would be useful.
    Pls dont mind i am also in those educated Jahils that was not able to know the difference of deen and Islam and was very impressed by the ParvaiZ mussaraff adress abt,DEEN ME KOI JABBAR NAHI....
    So just having a satisfaction that i have translation of QURAN and HADEES and i am muslim scholar type,KHANNAS and than try getting rid of the religious ppl having spend their lives to have the religious ideology must be avoided..
    SORRY TO HURT YOU IN THIS REGARD....

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 8:46 #
  16. skyfacts
    Blocked

    world have more different thinking school of thoughts than pakistan.But the problem is that govt trying to boost the differences between different school of thoughts and other religious and non-religiouse groups e.g mahajir quami movement and mutahidda quami movement.
    It is and open fact now that govt had entered different ppl as ulemas in every religious group to help and boost secterian division for the sake of their own interests.And oppose any act to stop them bieng united at one front using different tactics and helping different religious extremists groups also.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 8:53 #
  17. Sahnaz
    Member

    bsboid

    really a well written n near to reality article. but u knw tht how hard it is to implement it?? can our fandoos will agree with you. and our leader who play dirty games on the name of religion. well regarding sect its our in blood now. isnt it?? when sm1 in pakistan ask u who r u indirectly he wanna knw abt wat sect u do belong to. one of my classmate is shia. once she told me tht sunni r the root cause of most of problem with muslims. i was speechless n asked how cud u say tht?? she replied coz sunni r ruthless n dnt care abt others rituals n never give respect to shia. and we wr involved in a heated argument. fr many weeks we didnt speak with each other. thn i thought im nt religious so why im taking this matter as a fact of pride. but frm heart i was hurt by her words. watever i belong to a certain sect n noone can throw BS.

    if a person like me can be hurt thn i think how a fandoos will react after listening hard words. well we all say we r muslims but we give more prefrence to our respective sect thn our religion. isnt it??
    thnx

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:01 #
  18. Anonymous

    Thank you mirza sahab.
    skyfacts, no one is asking madrassas to make their students a master in maths, science or Pakistan Studies but they should atleast have the basic knowledge of these subjects. Probably as much as a student of 8th grade would have.

    Also, changing curriculum is just one part of the overall solution. The more important points are government oversight over masjid and madrassa and also government appointment of moulvi hazrat to masjids and madrassas.

    Rotation/posting of moulvi hazraat to different masjids at different location after regular time periods will offset the risk of a rogue moulvi sahab indoctrinating a whole madrassa or even a whole village.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:08 #
  19. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Differences r their but highlighting this fact upto some very high level is not a good approach.This time almost all of the religious entities r united against govt disinformation abt madrassas and religion and besides some minor cases their is no such big sectrn problem.
    Punjab govt used some innocent religious ppl to give a fatwa against this war and attacks so they paid a price in case of Mufti naeemi sb.
    After this incident this is being decided now that to remain at a distance from this issue is need and now AMAN SHANTI HY.
    Important is that govt should be stopped in making propaganda against one or other group.
    SHAHBAZ played a game using his SAHIBZADA FAZAL KARIM MNA to call conferences against deobandi group but latter brailve ulema decided to stop this govt aided conferences and now again AMAN SHANTI.
    WE SHOULD AVOID TO CHANGE RELIGIOUS CONCEPTS AS PER GOVT STANCE.....RELIGIOUS CONCEPTS SOMETHING FIX AND GOVT POLICIES CHANGE DAILY.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:12 #
  20. Good skyfacts, you have pointed out towards a definite 'lack' of our ullama that they have to learn 'english, bio, chemistry and physics as a must' in their final two years. Brother this is simply not enough and reason behind an example that we have been having multiple 'Eids' in the past.

    They are simply not qualified enough in the field of 'uloom-e-dunia', while living and existing in the same. You have to come to the terms that our clerics have kept us away from 'scientific research' labeling it as western ideology while on the other hand instead of teaching us Islam in its original form they propagated the ideology of dividing Islam in various sects, and the result of this we are facing in the form of a 'Sectarian Divide' as a curse on us all.

    If you have realized that the government itself is promoting sectarianism, obviously true, as we can see it being spread using media as a tool; do your part. Dont follow such ullema who have adopted these forms (sects) above Islam and are themselves 'living symbols' of division, keeping in mind that during and right after our blessed Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)no such sects were present, and therefore creations to the very detriment of Islam itself.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:18 #
  21. skyfacts
    Blocked

    semirza,

    The story behind TWO EIDS.
    Govt appointed MR Mufti Muneebur Rehman as chairman Rooati Hilal..
    He is the well known person against deobandi school of thought.
    He always rejected the shahadats of hilal from deobandi Ulema and ppl.
    Jamiatul rasheed in Karaqchi have a special department to deal with astronomy.They have in contact with international groups having reseach and development in this field..

    http://www.esnips.com/user/moonsighting

    THIS SHOULD BE MUCH H HELPFUL ABOUT YOUR VIEWS OF ONE EID NOW......

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:33 #
  22. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Also search for the ppl govt having religious as religious minister from time to time..
    The govt appointments of the ISLAMI NAZRIYATI COUNCIL MEMBERS,this is govt department of religious issues and just have a search about govt role in this department...

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:36 #
  23. skyfacts
    Blocked

    These govt imposed and promoted ppl are already mentioned within religiouse circles but you cannot do nothin about media coverage to these ISI Agents so ordinary ppl must have a negative impact abt religioun after listening these ppl on media or studiying their articles..
    HOW TO KEEP PPL DIVIDED ABT RELIGION AND POLITICAL ISSUES IS THE SPECIAL SUBJECT OF THE GOVT AND THEY DEALING THIS SUBJECT VERY CLEVERLY....

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:40 #
  24. f06md
    Member

    If Govt does not wants to have the control on Madras and sectarian issues, Then i do not think that any human or institution can play any positive role. So we must assume to the fact that Govt is serious in removing this issue then what can be done to control all these Madrasas??

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:43 #
  25. skyfacts
    Blocked

    nOTHING IS POSSIBLE AS GOVT IS RUNNING and underground network itself to create and boost sectrian differences....

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:45 #
  26. f06md
    Member

    Then there is no question to discuss that How all this **** can be removed from society.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:52 #
  27. skyfacts
    Blocked

    bsobaid,semirza,

    Just check this information before going ahead in this topic,this will give information abt whethere Madaris realy lack some thing modren or we are under govt propaganda.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 9:53 #
  28. 'If we assume to the fact that government is serious in removing this issue' than let us assume that:

    -A large majority of our poor public never opts for sending their children to any school-the reason being poverty.
    -Another equally large portion of our public, however poverty stricken, still opt for education for their children and prefers to send their children to 'Madrassas' as 'Madrassa education' is free. (Madrassas run/manaage on donations).

    Poverty is common to both, and Poverty is an issue at a National Level, therefore it remains the responsibility of the government to provide education to all, and that includes Madrassas also. Although this seems far fetched as the current state of government schools is a mess, due to obvious neglects of our 'Ministry of Education' both at Federal and Provincial levels.

    I may quote as an example, how far our 'Education System' has down graded:

    Urdu and Islamic Studies, as subjects were not taught in English medium Schools and Colleges (My schooling had been from The Convent of Jesus and Mary) right uptil the times of Ayub Khan.

    When Ayub Khan came to power, among other good things, he also made the study of Urdu and Islamiyat compulsory, specially for the english medium shcools.

    I was in sixth standard, when a gentleman (Allah ST) bless his soul) named Mr. Naqwi, as he was known was appointed as our teacher for 'Islamic Studies'. He was a professor (through qualification) for Islamic Studies, and a real good one.

    Our Madrassas are run by persons who are known as 'Hafiz Ji' and not professors. They may be managed by a person who holds a higher level in Islamic Studies, but is this the way to run a very important (religious)source of education?

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 10:08 #
  29. IJay
    member

    The day when imam Mahdi will appear it will finish all sects
    when Hazrat Essa will come Christianity will die and when dajjal will be killed Judaism will vanish! till then just wait and see! and Islam will disappear after Mahdi and Essa!
    that would be final hour of this world! door of repentance will close and guidance will be taken away by ALLAH!

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 10:52 #
  30. f06md
    Member

    Wait for Imam Mehndi and do nothing now. This seems to be a good strategy in current circumstances!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 10:59 #
  31. The divide can not be eliminated and we have to live with it. The only thing which is extremely important is that we must not say any thing which may hurt the feelings of others.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 11:16 #
  32. Better stick to the thread, embracing ground realities all the while we are discussing 'The Sectarian Divide' and leave the coming of Imam Mehdi and Nabi Eissa, for the time to come. Just discuss the topic that is floated, during this time while we all wait for the factual Zahoor of Imam Mehdi and Nabi Eissa.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 11:18 #
  33. Yes this is the least that could be done. We all should prefer to address and be addressed as Muslims first and what ever our affiliations are, afterwards.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 11:20 #
  34. Anonymous

    Dear posters,

    Please see this whole problem as a political and a good governance issue rather than a religious issue.

    As I mentioned in my earlier post, we should accept the fact that sects will continue to exist. We need to create a situation where sectarian differences become benign and do not cause any social distrubances. Only then we will start identifying ourselves as Pakistani and muslims rather than shia, suni, barelvi etc. In pre-partition India, Sunnis would setup water sabeels for Moharram processions and Shias would give niaz on shab-e-baraat. Now this whole issue of foreign hand and ISI is a different problem altogether.

    Second concern I see here is the imlpementation. I believe implementation will not be a big issue in most part of the Pakistan except in FATA or some part of NWFP. The key is political concensus. I believe all major political parties will agree upon madrassa registration and that includes PPP, PML-N, and fazlurrehman. Government should bring these political parties on board, get their confidence and run an effective PR and media campaign on the issue. I am 100% sure if Zardari, Geelani, Nawaz and Shahbaz run a campaign in favor of madrassa and masjid reforms people wont care about Moulana Haneef Jalendhri or Mufti Usmani or Muneeb-ur-rehman. Once we have a political concenses, Madrassa and masjid leaders will come under pressure to consider the reforms and eventually implement them. I recommend government let the masjid and madrassa leaders to work out the details themselves.

    Please provide other suggestions on implementation details.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 18:39 #
  35. skyfacts
    Blocked

    bsobaid,

    The issue of registration madaris is political one.Govt want to gain some political issues and propagated the word of ,Madaris have old books to teach and so they have to be registered to intruduce some new subjects.
    I dont know why we started with the same point of view of RAHMAN MALIK regarding any religious issue.But when it comes to other political issues Rahman Malik is totally ignored and not reliable to be trusted his words.
    Now to have some political gains govt want madaris to be registered and controlled,on the issues like govt receiving orders from abroad.
    This is never possible here.
    The ground realities about madaris course is just ignored by people like you.
    You dont know even name of single book of DARSI NIZAMI and trying to change the course contents of the madaris.
    Madaris and Islamic knowledge needs a sufficeint amount of all the moderen languages and physica,chem,bio type of books.
    TO TEACH THESE COURSES ,NEEDS A HUGE AMOUNT TO PAY TO THE TEACHERS AND SOME OTHER EXPENSES ALSO NEEDED.SO THE MADARIS HAVING SUFFICIENT FINACIAL AVAILABILTY HAVE ARRANGEMENTS TO PROVIDE THESE SUBJECTS TO THE STUDENTS.rEST OF THE MADARIS CANNOT AFFORD TO TEACH THE SUBJECTS TRYING THEIR BEST TO SEND STUDENTS TO OTHER MADARIS FOR HAVING THESE BOOKS STUDIED.
    THIS POLITICAL ISSUES SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN RELIGIOUS LABEL OR ANY OTHER LABEL.ONLY FINACE ARRANGEMENT TO HELP THE MADARIS IS NEEDED FROM GOVT,BUT IT IS NEVER POSSIBLE FOR THE GOVT TO PROVIDE 30 LAKH STUDENTS SUCH FACILITY.
    WE SHOULD AVOID SING THE SONGS BY RAHMAN MALIK AS HE IS NOT A RELIABLE ONE AND HONEST TO BE TRUSTED IN SUCH DEVELOPING MATTERS....

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 19:28 #
  36. Anonymous

    skyfacts, you suspect government will introduce american influenced curriculum in madrassas, rite?

    but how is this any worse than current situation in which ANYONE can teach ANYTHING in madrassa?

    Lets say, India want to hire new agents in Toba Tek Singh. Since registration is not required, India can just set up a madrassa, send a RAW agent as moulvi and start recruiting. Rite? Just tell me this, can anyone stop India or whoever from doing this???

    On the other hand, I proposed madrassa and masjid affairs are run by a committe of ulema representing all major sects. Even if government want to introduce any american influenced curriculam then atleast this committe and ulema can oppose and protest against it, rite? Also, they can have assembly members and political parties oppose such bill in the parliament, rite? but do we have any leverage when there is no registeration or government oversight and RAW just setup a masjid or madrassa in some remote area of south punjab?? You tell me, which situation is worse?

    No one is asking to change dars-e-nizami. I am only proposing addition of new subjects like science, maths and Pakistan Studies. Also, we dont want to make madrassa students expert in these fields, just basic stuff. Probably upto the level of Class 8th student. I dont think that puts any extra burden on the student.

    For the extra financial cost. I think this can be covered by donor agencies. Cost is not an issue, Pakistan will get enough assistance for that and then madrassas get chanda and donation also.

    Posted 2 years ago on 18 Jul 2009 22:53 #
  37. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Dear their is only issue govt wants to go with it.US wants to stop resistance against it.And they would like to change the courses specialy religious one to hide the facts and materials against christians and jews in the QURAN and Hadees.
    Now the gain plane underway with different banners,madaris have old subjects,not having science subjects and promoting extremism..etc.
    The madaris controlling authority have a closed check their on every madrasa.
    The question of RAW agents is valid and Pakistan army having a network from RAW,CIA and other agencies and from time to time they made efforts to clean it.This type of activities never be stopped but effort is made to clean it all the time.
    I believe you are having no information abt DARSI NIZAMI,english and science subjects are already thier where it is affordable or than students required to transfer their credits to another madrasa having such facilities,provided he would like to complete the education.

    IT IS NEVER POSSIBLE TO TEACH ANY THING IN MADRASA,THIS IS COMPLETE IGNORANCE OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM THEIR.
    US and UK are ready to give to funds to madrasa Registration authority,for what???This is the main point to be think of.
    This is just propaganda from govt and west,ground realities are not the same as presented...
    The need for science subjects and other knowledge is already understood and improvement from time to time and addition for new books is underway.......

    THE MADARIS SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE SURVEYED BEFORE COMMENTING ON SUCH ISSUE,THIS ISSUE IS RELATED WITH THE SITUATION OF THE REGION AND SHOULD NOT BE THINK FOR AN ISOLATION.......

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Jul 2009 8:11 #
  38. Anonymous

    I dont get it. You think this is US agenda but I say this is good for the country.
    This should not be and can not be ISI job to find all the enemies that are working on foriegn agenda. Just like any other institution in a country, madrassa should be registered and run under government oversight. If you think government does everything on foreign pressure then what is the point of having government at all?? Madarsa reforms may be in favor of US but I dont care about that. What I care about is such reforms are necessary for Pakistan. We cant have an important institution of madarsa and masjid ,that have a huge influence on Pakistani people lives, run just randomly without any oversight.
    Dars-e-nizami may have science and maths to some extent but that curriculum was designed centuries ago and is insufficient for today's needs. The curriculum does not include Pakistan Studies.
    You are completely ignoring the point where I proposed forming of a committe incharge of running madarsa and masjid affairs. This committe and parliament can counter any US influenced measures in madarsa and masajid.

    In my original post, there were 1 or 2 points about madarsa reforms, rest aer about management of ulema and masajids and those points are as important as madarsa curriculum.

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Jul 2009 15:45 #
  39. A change towards good and a general attitude of tollerance has happened here at pkpolitics. There is almost no sectarian mudslinging since sometime, and I hope it continues the way it is now!

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Jul 2009 19:05 #
  40. Anonymous

    so professor sahab, may be you can give some feedback. There is this issue of trust deficit and american hand. In the past many people saw the question of madarsa reforms as american inspired. People thought that this all has been done on american pressue. Moulvi hazrat also said the same and successfully used this excuse to get away with implementing reforms. I also remember Condoleeza Rice said many times during congress hearings that American do support such initiative.
    So there is a lot of american cloud around madarsa reforms.

    What to do about it? how to convince people that madarsa and masjid reforms are in Pakistan's own benefit??

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Jul 2009 19:18 #
  41. Neither USA nor Saudi Arabia, none should be allowed to arbitrate, meddle, interfere or influence our core ciriculum of Islamic studies that we intend to edify our young generations in particular based on Quran and Sunnah that is by and large common to and welcomed by all sects, in Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Jul 2009 19:36 #
  42. Anonymous

    Thats right but the question here is perception of american influence. We sort of agreed that we need to make some changes in our current masjid and madarsa system but people generally think this has been under american influence.

    The solution I provided to that was "political concensus". If both N-Leage and PPP and Fazlurrehman support this initiative then people will buy into that.

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Jul 2009 19:44 #
  43. We expect the same what you have expressed by offering a solution through 'political concensus' with possible results we are not looking forward to.

    If we disscuss this issue in the parliament, a democratic means to reach a concensus, and not by parties to decide upon this sensitive issue individually or collectively, we should not forget (in or out of parliment) that the parties you have named have already been briefed directly, several times by visiting forein political dignatiries therefore rendering their neutrality questionable.

    I am afraid this particular issue has never been on agenda for/by PMLN, PPP, JUI and all. Their efforts have always been focused on achieving power or remaining in power and never anything solid has ever been initiated by them in this regard.

    Posted 2 years ago on 20 Jul 2009 20:46 #
  44. skyfacts
    Blocked

    bsobaid,
    This is impossible to present an issue raised by americans as,local issue.Not only in pakistan but in saudi arabia bangladesh and even editing in quran and edited quran was distributed in the muslim world but this idea failed....
    So how any one can go and accept this agenda.Just to turn muslims minds in favour of americans and kill resisitence..this is impossible....and development needed in madaris is intruduced from time to time by their own controlling body.Just go through their course contents and only than you may feel.Political parties are not allowed to decide about our religion for us.They have their own religion of:looto,khawo mazy urao:and can never be trusted to decide suchan issue for the muslims,or impose their own religious ideology here.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 21 Jul 2009 4:15 #
  45. Anonymous

    We are talking superficially.

    Here are some numbers:
    There are atleast 16,662 madarsaas in Pakistan. Out of those, 4,509 (25%) are completely out of government radar. Out of those 4,509 unreigstered madarsas, 826 refused to provide any information to the government, not even number of students enrolled in these madarasas. Nothing is known about the curriculum, teachers and financial sources of these madarsaas. Those 826 madarsaas that refused to provide any information to government have over 100,000 students.

    So you talk about Dars-e-nizami and american pressure now you tell me what is being taught in those 826 madarsas? They are probably teaching christianity or hinduism, who knows?? these madarsaas are probably suicide factories, who knows? Do you think registering them and appointing government approved teachers is american agenda??

    This is a basic issue and if you still think government has no right to register or have an oversight over madarsa and masjid then I rest my case. I cant argue anymore.

    Posted 2 years ago on 22 Jul 2009 14:41 #
  46. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Tell me the source of the figures you provided.
    Their is only one controlling aithority of the madaris board which is contrlling every single madrasa.
    The madaris not fulfilling the criteria of the madaris WIFAQ are refused to give membership.This is the case you are talking about.And becoming eligible they are than give membership.
    I must say thier is nothing like this that madaris are working beyond the madaris controlling authority.Re-think ur information again.
    This is the case that no one like to admit his son into a madrasa not having affiliation with WIFAQUL MADARIS.

    You are talking about the suiciders,just provide me with the single case of this type other than interior mininster press briefing of such propaganda..The media at your disposal is not reliable one developing hating against ur own institutions.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Jul 2009 7:53 #
  47. skyfacts
    Blocked

    You are talking about good governance of the Pakistani govt,i would like to leave this debate to the rest of the participants to through some light over good governance issue.......kabhi kabhi aap buhot sadgi ka muzahra ker jathy hain....

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Jul 2009 7:55 #
  48. Anonymous

    My source is jang newspaper quoting government ministry's department.

    I quoted in my previous there are 100,000 children and young men studying in madarsaas with NO information available about them at all. No wifaq-ul-madaras no nothing.

    I consider government much better than a crazy foriegn agent moulvi running an institution.

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Jul 2009 14:47 #
  49. skyfacts
    Blocked

    You should have the same biased point of view may be called a blind faith against religious ppl.....nothing else as you have to deny and go against your own comments about this govt good governance.Just without sufficient ground realities and information it is always never a good learned approach to just go with the flood......

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Jul 2009 16:15 #
  50. There are news asking for a 'one subject, one title' Friday sermon, each Friday for the whole of Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Jul 2009 16:58 #

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