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The Sectarian Divide...How, and When we will get rid of it?

(132 posts)
  1. Anonymous

    Say your Khalifa suddenly become power hungry and want everything run by him. He gradually starts to replace shura with his own stooges and tighten his grip on the power. AFter doing that, your Khalifah woke up one morning and find himself craving for immense sexual appetite. He orders his sipah-e-salaar to get him 50 beautful women from the whole country and then entered all of them in his haram.

    Next week, your khalifah thinks wearing white shirt is haram, so he bans it. Next week he changes name of weekdays to his son's name and the things go on and on.

    How can this khalifah be removed from power?????

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 22:20 #
  2. raheb
    Member

    Khan! if one Ummah is NOT implementable then Quran is not implementable, as One Ummah is a Quranic word. You are doing same mistake as bsobaid, who consistently saying that sects will always exist, BUT according to Islam there is and will be NO sect in Islam.

    raheb

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 23:08 #
  3. Anonymous

    Sir, you dont like the word sect, call i t boom bastic, whatever you like to call it. I am referring to barelvi, shia sunni wahabi takfiri ehl-e-hadees talibani and the list goes on and on.

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 23:16 #
  4. raheb
    Member

    Very RIGHT! I do not like and accept any sect in Islam because ALLAH do not want and like it, as it is the Biggest FITNA in muslims, so CONDEMN it, Deny it instead of saying that they will exist NO NO NO.

    raheb

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 23:20 #
  5. Anonymous

    Yes, but shia sunni barelvi deobandi will exist, regardless of what you call them. Probably at the end of time when crazy things will start to happen they may exist no more but for forseeable future, these are all here to stay.

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 23:21 #
  6. NNL
    member

    Bsobaid there are ahadiths which are classed as sahih in regards to the conditions when Mahdi will reveal himself and one of them states that A Khalifa/Ruler will die and there will be a dispute amongst his successors.

    That Hadith does tell us that there will be Khilafa now the point which my brother Shahzad will say its a bigger khilafa which compromises of the Entire Muslim Ummah or it could be a piece of Land anywhere in the world. But the biggest crucial point is the Mahdi will be from Quraish.

    Noorani Mulla might say that Mahdi being from Quraish is a ploy by the Saudi nationalist to remain in power and they have corrupted the HAdith but i would say that for 1400 yrs all the great Ulemas have authenticated such ahadiths and didnt think it was Arab Nationalism and almost all of them were non arab people.

    So one has to be very thoughtful in reproaching this subject. However if you go thru Shahzad's post where he mentions a particular hadith regarding the types of rulers we will be having as Ummah is very thought provoking.

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 23:29 #
  7. NNL
    member

    Raheb
    my brother in Islam

    Agree with you that there are no sects within Islam but you cant deny the words of Rasool Allah sallaho alahi wasallam

    Posted 2 years ago on 27 Jul 2009 23:31 #
  8. shahzad1924
    member

    @bsobaid - "Sir, you dont like the word sect, call i t boom bastic, whatever you like to call it."

    jigar its not as simple as that. the word "sect" has a certain notion attached to it. it refers to a particular type of problem like the word "cancer" in the medical world. thats why our rulers refer to hanafi, wahabi, shia as sects whereas in fact these different schools of thought are allowed in Islam and they are not a problem. so, if we use the word sect for these schools, we would fall into the trap of these puppet rulers whose masters sit in washington and london.

    "Say your Khalifa suddenly become power hungry and want everything run by him. He gradually starts to replace shura with his own stooges and tighten his grip on the power. AFter doing that, your Khalifah woke up one morning and find himself craving for immense sexual appetite. He orders his sipah-e-salaar to get him 50 beautful women from the whole country and then entered all of them in his haram."

    those are very good questions. first of all, everything IS run by the khaleefah. he is the ameer of jihad, he is the head of industry, he is the economics minister....he is everything. and he doesn't need to replace anyone in the shura with his stooges. he can simply tell every shura member to go home. we have witnessed this in history and this is also allowed from Islam. and come on, in today's time...50 wives be serious (joke)

    so, what do we do then? well, you have to first understand that these are a class of problem that are common to all systems; capitalism, communism etc. and we shouldn't judge the system on these problems. in fact we should judge the system on the mechanism of accountability that it has in place to solve these problems. so, lets discuss that.

    the qadhi madhalim (cheif justice) in the khilafah has just one job...to remove the khaleefah. so, a whole department of the state is devoted to taking complaints against the khaleefah. furthermore, when a complaint has been lodged against the khaleefah, the khaleefah cannot remove the qadhi madhalim.

    the second level of accountability is the shura. in a democracy, the parliament accounts the ruler and legislates laws whereas in khilafah the sole purpose of the shura is to account the ruler because legislation is only for Allah. if the khaleefah asks the advice of the shura on an administrative issue (building more schools, improving health care system etc.), their advice is binding on him and the daleel for this is when the Prophet (SAW) left his opinion and followed the advice of his companions in the battle of Uhud...but that's a separate issue. other than advising the khaleefah on administrative issues the only job of the shura is to account the khaleefah.

    the third level of accountability is political parties. Surah Al-Imran, Verse 104 makes it obligatory on the Muslims to form at least one political party;

    "Let there be among you a group that invites to the good, orders what is right and forbids what is evil, and they are those who are successful" [TMQ 3:104]

    and in khilafah there is no "hizb-e-iqtidaar". all parties are opposition parties and all of them are in opposition to one person - the khaleefah. we have seen in history that during the era of Hazrat Usman (RA) the sahaba went far and wide, some of them were made governers (wali), some were made amils and some were martyred in battles. so, they never returned back. and since then the level of accountability started to decrease because the sahaba were the only group that were fulfilling the requirements of the above mentioned verse. insha Allah when the khilafah is established again, it will be ensured that more and more political parties are formed that would account the ruler. and FYI, there is no need to get approval from the khaleefah for establishing a political party. Allah (SWT) has given us the approval in this verse and it doesn't need a seal of approval from the khaleefah.

    and last but not least, the fourth level of accountability is the people. correct me if im wrong, but as far as i remember it was either Abu Bakr (RA) or Umar (RA) who once asked a group of people that if i deviate from the path of Islam, what will you do. and one of them answered that we will straighten you with this sword. for a moment just consider this, a person is saying this to someone who has been guaranteed jannah and who is in fact the leader of all arabia.

    on top of that, the education system will produce Islamic personalities, that would understand the importance of accounting the ruler. in the past, at one time the people started accepting that the son would be given bayah after his father. when everything is going fine, people like to maintain the status quo (in fact even when everything is not going fine....for example the current situation in Pakistan). but this would be discouraged from day-one.

    so, this is a small glimpse of the mechanism of accountability in khilafah. of course there are more details, which you can find in books from HT and the classical scholars.

    but i don't just want to leave this discussion here. lets have a look at the mechanism of accountability in current day Pakistan.

    since Ayub Khan, there has always been a struggle between the establishment (pro-US) and the judiciary (pro-britain) on the issue of power-sharing. the version of democracy in the books tell you of a utopian state where the judiciary accounts the rulers but in fact they are just fighting a war with each other on the issue of power-sharing. and on top of that, according to the "muqaddas" secular constitution, you cannot bring the PM, Ministers, CMs, Secretaries, Senators etc. to court as long as they are serving office. Ministers kill people, rape women and still they are at large. khar used to drive with bhutto and whenever they would come across a good looking "dosheeza" he would say to bhutto...."utha lain?". and today, he is the greatest politician of Pakistani history. this is the level of accountability in democracy.

    as for the parliament accounting the rulers...this is only a joke. badaltay mausam kay saath to parliament tabdeel ho jati hai....to konsi accountability?

    as for the political parties, we have politicians that came into politics just to support their industrial empire (Nawaz Sharif). all these politicians care for is their own benefit. in khilafah there are no benefits for politicians. whatever benefits they get are the same as that of every other citizen. whereas in democracy, if you happen to secure a seat for a party that wins the election, that's as if you have won a jackpot!

    and as for people accounting the rulers, unfortunately they have been told by their teachers, parents and their media that politics is a bad thing. so, stay away from it. get a good degree, get married and live a happy life...as if thats any different from the life of an animal. and whenever they do come on the streets, they are used by other politicians e.g. Nawaz Sharif hijacking the lawyers movement etc.

    again, this is just a discussion of the mechanism. of course at the end of the day it depends on the individuals, but im not discussing that at the moment.

    Posted 2 years ago on 28 Jul 2009 0:30 #
  9. Anonymous

    Thank you Shahzad,

    Who selects/appoints shura and Cheif Justice? Who removes them from office? What is the size of shura? How long they are appointed/selected for to serve in shura?

    "Bakr (RA) or Umar (RA) who once asked a group of people that if i deviate from the path of Islam, what will you do. and one of them answered that we will straighten you with this sword."

    It was Hazrat Umar and I dont agree with this approach. 1) because this shows violence as the only mean of replacement (2) Ruler's sword is powerful than any other swords.

    I pretty much disagree with your analysis of democracy but I wont discuss it here for now.

    "if the khaleefah asks the advice of the shura on an administrative issue (building more schools, improving health care system etc.), their advice is binding on him"

    So shura's role is passive? What if Khalifa does not solicit any advice/suggestions at all?

    What is the mechanism of accountability of Khalifah by Shura?

    Posted 2 years ago on 28 Jul 2009 15:11 #
  10. raheb
    Member

    NNL wrote, "Agree with you that there are no sects within Islam but you cant deny the words of Rasool Allah sallaho alahi wasallam".........

    NNL.. is not it a Paradox what you are saying? Islam says something and Prophet says something else..... How comes?

    Of course I cannot deny Prophets words, BUT prove me which words are actually HIS words, beside Quran. If you refer me towards other Man-written books like Bukhari, then I have fully RIGHT to deny Bukhari's words, NOT Prophets words.

    I CAN NOT accept such words, which goes against Quran's words, NO MATTER who has written it and HOW many believe on it.

    Here is a 100% True Hadith,
    " DO NOT WRITE ANYTHING FROM ME BESIDE WHAT I DICTATE WHICH I GET FROM ALLAH IN FORM OF WAHEE. YOU SHOULD NOT DO THE SAME MISTAKE WHICH OTHER NATIONS DID- THAT THEY INCLUDED HUMEN BEING'S WORDS IN ALLAH'S WORDS."

    raheb

    Posted 2 years ago on 28 Jul 2009 22:58 #
  11. shahzad1924
    member

    @bsobaid

    there is a copy of the draft constitution of the future khilafah on this link;

    http://www.hizb-australia.org/hizbut-tahrir/draft-constitution

    click on THE UMMAH ASSEMBLY (Majlis al-Ummah) for the articles regarding the shura.

    "It was Hazrat Umar and I dont agree with this approach. 1) because this shows violence as the only mean of replacement"

    what is your criterion for not agreeing to this approach?

    "I pretty much disagree with your analysis of democracy but I wont discuss it here for now."

    i would love to hear your thoughts

    @raheb

    "Of course I cannot deny Prophets words, BUT prove me which words are actually HIS words, beside Quran. If you refer me towards other Man-written books like Bukhari, then I have fully RIGHT to deny Bukhari's words, NOT Prophets words."

    the Quran is also a Man-written book. and you have quoted a hadith yourself that proves that the Prophet (SAW) didn't write the Quran himself. so, indirectly you are questioning the validity of the Quran itself.

    look, the issue is not whether it was written by Bukhari or not. this is not how the classical scholars used to categorize ahadith as sahih, hasan and daeef. if you have some proof that the hadith of the 73 sects is daeef then bring it forward.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Jul 2009 1:04 #
  12. Anonymous

    "what is your criterion for not agreeing to this approach?"

    violence should no place in in the functioning or appointment/selection of government. If a man has to take out his sword to correct a ruler in today's age then there is something fundamentally wrong with that system.

    I will read your constitution to further follow up.

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Jul 2009 2:15 #
  13. shahzad1924
    member

    "If a man has to take out his sword to correct a ruler in today's age then there is something fundamentally wrong with that system."

    that wasn't in the literal sense. it shows the level of accountability in Islam. that even someone who is guaranteed jannah and is one of the greatest khulafa, even he is not above the law. as i said before, if the khaleefah does something which is not from Islam, anyone can lodge a compliant to the department of madhalim. khair, lets leave that for the moment.

    "violence should no place in in the functioning or appointment/selection of government."

    okay, let me rephrase my question. is the criterion for this opinion of yours a)Islam or b)the mind?

    Posted 2 years ago on 29 Jul 2009 2:44 #
  14. According to Islam no body is considered above the law. Interesting!What was the law and how it was implemented during the early days of the 'dawn of Islam'?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Jul 2009 15:40 #
  15. Anonymous

    "violence should no place in in the functioning or appointment/selection of government."

    okay, let me rephrase my question. is the criterion for this opinion of yours a)Islam or b)the mind?

    Shahzad, this is a generally accepted criterion among all peace loving and mature nations. Violence must have no place in the functioning or appointment/selection of government.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Jul 2009 16:12 #
  16. shahzad1924
    member

    @semirza - "What was the law and how it was implemented during the early days of the 'dawn of Islam'?"

    could you be a bit more specific? i don't know what you are trying to ask here. anyway, the law was from Islam and to this day, the judicial proceedings are available in big libraries in Egypt, Syria etc. Not a single ruling has been passed that was not from Islam.

    @bsobaid - "...generally accepted criterion among all peace loving and mature nations..."

    and the examples are....? USA crusaders? colonialist Britain?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Jul 2009 23:46 #
  17. raheb
    Member

    shehzad! you still insisting same thing again and again, it is batter come with new arguments.
    Hadith's books carries lot of Fitna. In my opinion NO other thing has demaged Muslims more than books of Hadiths. AND NO BODY can claim that these books are carrying the Truth.
    Difference between Quran's written form and ahadith's written form is that Quran was written in the life of Prophet and HE himself dictated and listened it, BUT ahadith books are written many hundreds of years of Prophet's death.
    Is NOT it sufficient for you to use little brain?

    "Classical scholars" WHO those such scholars were and HOW could they judge these ahadith as correct? and first these so called scholars were humen being also.

    Hadith of 73 sect is False and NOT the words of The Prophet, prove is that it goes against Quran, which totally DENY any sect in Islam. IS THAT PROVE NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

    raheb

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Jul 2009 23:57 #
  18. shahzad1924
    member

    "shehzad! you still insisting same thing again and again"

    thats because you are not listening to what im saying.

    "Hadith's books carries lot of Fitna. In my opinion NO other thing has demaged Muslims more than books of Hadiths. AND NO BODY can claim that these books are carrying the Truth."

    come on, dont come to me with that Ghamdi rhetoric.

    "Difference between Quran's written form and ahadith's written form is that Quran was written in the life of Prophet and HE himself dictated and listened it"

    yes, but it was "COLLECTED" in Usman (RA)'s khilafah. and the process of COLLECTION is the same as that of ahadith.

    "BUT ahadith books are written many hundreds of years of Prophet's death."

    that doesn't prove anything. after so many centuries, do we start saying that Nuh (AS) didn't build an ark? just because so much time has passed, lets change the story.

    ""Classical scholars" WHO those such scholars were and HOW could they judge these ahadith as correct? and first these so called scholars were humen being also."

    i didn't say that they judge ahadith. i said that they extract hukm from ahadith.

    "prove is that it goes against Quran, which totally DENY any sect in Islam"

    which you haven't presented yet.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Jul 2009 0:15 #
  19. Were the posts here a reason behind this new fitna on pkpolitis?

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Jul 2009 22:25 #
  20. NNL
    member

    I guess Mirza Sahib you can see the trend set by some on this thread to question the validity of Ahadiths and then this chap Quranist comes and then we repetition of the same rhetoric somehow me thinks its inter-related.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 1:14 #
  21. Yes NNL, I believe you are correct in saying that this rhetoric was a reaction and sure it appears to be inter-related. I personally favour 'discussions about serious topics', and there is no harm in this. However the very base of discussion like 'It is not mentioned in Quran' therfore.....its allowed/not allowed' only, without taking other references into consideration, remains unconclusive and is just 'fitna.'

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 9:23 #
  22. Anonymous

    NNL and professor sahab, there is no point in arguing people who raise such questions. There is enough information for them to get our point but they dont come here to get convinced. Such questions aer raised to derail us from constructuve discussion like this one to useless and wasteful discussions we are seeing pkpolitics in last 2 days or so.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 17:45 #
  23. Very well pointed out bsobaid. Thanks

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 17:52 #
  24. NNL
    member

    yes Bsobaid you are absolutely right.

    Whenever the Muslims try to do something positive and think outside the box we are boggled down by these so-called pseudo intellectuals into things that arent even worth talking about and then one of them decides to insult Islam and then the talking points are changed.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Aug 2009 18:10 #
  25. shahzad1924
    member

    IMHO we should just ignore such acts and keep on with the discussion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 10:57 #
  26. Anonymous

    Thank you NNL and professor sahab
    and I completely agree with Shahzad.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 21:11 #
  27. 'then one of them decides to insult Islam and then the talking points are changed.'
    ============================================================
    The way they always highlight negative aspects of everything what is said specially ;insulting Islam' it clearly indicates they are 'non Muslims' in disguise; they may refute this on top of their voice but it remains a fact. Only a non Muslims will be so crafty with one goal in mind - undermine Islam and Muslims.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Aug 2009 23:09 #
  28. Anonymous

    semiza, spot on. Such people can be easily identified. A good Pakistani will point out our problems and issues and ask for suggestions on how to improve them or present an opinion on how to improve or fix the issue.

    A non-Pakistani, on the other hand, will point out issues to redicule and insult our country and nation.

    It is not hard to figure out, their hatred is clearly evident in their posts.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 6:29 #
  29. talalkhan
    Member

    Please dont blame maulvis for creating sects.There are ambiguities,contradictions,confusions in all religious literatures.Europe is getting rid of religion and is therefore progressing.Turkey has also resolved it emicably.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 6:39 #
  30. shahzad1924
    member

    okay, just a small question to all supporters of democracy. how would democracy bridge the gap between sunni and shia? democracy itself has numerous schools of thought.

    how do you reconcile between the supporters of parliamentary and liberal democracies? how about social democracy or republican democracy? democracy itself has so many sects, which one will you choose?

    these schools of thought in democracy are not based on religion but thats not the point. the point is to reconcile between two parties.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 8:10 #
  31. talalkhan
    Member

    These systems are working successfully in democratic societies,where President Clinton's chair was in trouble,where Margrate Thathcher's daughter remained unemployed,where Prime Minster of Newzealand was issued ticket by a seargent and where 20000 Pakistani Doctors are living with respect and dignity.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 8:45 #
  32. shahzad1924
    member

    how do you measure success? you mean that the nations that have brought the whole of mankind to yet another depression....those are successful?

    anyway, that wasn't the discussion. i dont know why you guys can't just stick to the topic. my point was that there are different opinions of democracy but still there are ways to manage those differences. thats how systems work, they have an inbuilt mechanism that solves disputes. similarly Islam has those differences and it has that mechanism of solving disputes.

    i hope you get the point.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Aug 2009 8:50 #

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