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The Twenty Zionists Who Lied and Conspired to Steer the US to Invade Iraq

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  1. Migel9
    Member

    The Twenty Zionists Who Lied and Conspired to Steer the US to Invade Iraq

    By Maidhc O Cathail

    Who’s to blame for the Iraq war?

    A not-so-trivial quiz

    Maidhc Ó Cathail names and shames the top 20 politicians, academics and policy makers – all con men and all Zionists – who lied and conspired to steer the US towards aggression against the Iraqi people.

    This month marks the seventh anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. Despite the passage of time, there is still much confusion, some of it deliberate, about why America made that fateful decision. The following questions are intended to clarify who’s to blame for the Iraq war.

    1. Ahmed Chalabi, the source of much of the false “intelligence” about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, was introduced to his biggest boosters, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz ,by their mentor, a University of Chicago professor who had known the Iraqi conman since the 1960s. Who was this influential Cold War hawk who has an American Enterprise Institute (AEI) conference centre named in his honour?

    2. In 1982, “A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s” appeared in Kivunim, a journal published by the World Zionist Organization, which stated: “Iraq, rich in oil on the one hand and internally torn on the other, is guaranteed as a candidate for Israel’s targets. Its dissolution is even more important for us than that of Syria. Iraq is stronger than Syria. In the short run it is Iraqi power which constitutes the greatest threat to Israel.” Who wrote this seminal article?

    3. “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm,” a report prepared for Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in 1996, recommended “removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq – an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right”. Which then member of the Pentagon’s Defence Policy Board was the study group leader?

    4. A November 1997 Weekly Standard editorial entitled “Saddam Must Go” stated: “We know it seems unthinkable to propose another ground attack to take Baghdad. But it’s time to start thinking the unthinkable.” The following year, the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), an influential neo-conservative think tank, published a letter to President Clinton urging war against Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein because he is a “hazard” to “a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil”. The co-founders of PNAC were also the authors of the “Saddam Must Go” editorial. Who are they?

    5. In Tyranny’s Ally: America’s Failure to Defeat Saddam Hussein, published by AEI Press in 1999, he argued that Clinton policies in Iraq were failing to contain the country and proposed that the US use its military to redraw the map of the Middle East. Who was this Middle East adviser to Vice-President **** Cheney from 2003 to mid-2007?

    6. On 15 September 2001 at Camp David, the deputy defence secretary attempted to justify a US attack on Iraq rather than Afghanistan because it was “doable”. In the lead-up to the war, he said that it was “wildly off the mark” to think hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to pacify a postwar Iraq; that the Iraqis “are going to welcome us as liberators”; and that “it is just wrong” to assume that the United States would have to fund the Iraq war. Who is this chief architect of the Iraq war?

    7. On 23 September 2001, which US senator, who had pushed for the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, told NBC’s “Meet the Press” that there was evidence that “suggests Saddam Hussein may have had contact with Osama bin Laden and the al-Qaeda network, perhaps [was] even involved in the 11 September attack”?

    8. A 12 November 2001 New York Times editorial called an alleged meeting between Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi agent in Prague an “undisputed fact”? Who was the columnist, celebrated for his linguistic prowess, who was sloppy in his use of language here?

    9. A 20 November 2001 Wall Street Journal op-ed argued that the US should continue to target regimes that sponsor terrorism, claiming, “Iraq is the obvious candidate, having not only helped al-Qaeda, but attacked Americans directly (including an assassination attempt against the first President Bush) and developed weapons of mass destruction”. Who is the professor of strategic studies at the Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University, who made these spurious claims?

    10. George W. Bush’s January 2002 State of the Union address described Iraq as part of an “axis of evil”. Who was Bush’s Canadian-born speechwriter who coined the provocative phrase?

    11. “Yet whether or not Iraq becomes the second front in the war against terrorism, one thing is certain: there can be no victory in this war if it ends with Saddam Hussein still in power.” Who is the longtime editor of Commentary magazine who made this assertion in a February 2002 article entitled “How to win World War IV”?

    12. Which Pentagon Defence Policy Board member and PNAC signatory wrote in the Washington Post on 13 February 2002: “I believe that demolishing Hussein’s military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk”?

    13. “If we win the war, we are in control of Iraq, it is the single largest source of oil in the world... We will have a bonanza, a financial one, at the other end, if the war is successful.” Who is the psychiatrist-turned-Washington Post columnist who tempted Americans with this illusory carrot on 3 August 2002?

    14. In a 20 September 2002 Wall Street Journal op-ed entitled “The Case of Toppling Saddam,” which current national leader claimed that Saddam Hussein could be hiding nuclear material “in centrifuges the size of washing machines” throughout the country?

    15. “Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I’ll tell you what I think the real threat [is] and actually has been since 1990 – it’s the threat against Israel.” Despite this candid admission to a foreign policy conference at the University of Virginia on 10 September 2002, he authored the National Security Strategy of September 2002, which provided the justification for a preemptive war against Iraq. Who was this member of President Bush’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board?

    16. According to a 7 December 2002 New York Times article, during Secretary of State Colin Powell’s efforts to negotiate a resolution on Iraq at the United Nations, this Iran-Contra conspirator’s role was “to make sure that Secretary Powell did not make too many concessions to the Europeans on the resolution’s wording, pressing a hard-line view.” Who was this senior director of Near East and North African affairs at the National Security Council during the George W. Bush administration?

    17. Who was Vice-President Cheney’s chief of staff, until he was indicted for lying to federal investigators in the Valerie Plame case, who drafted Colin Powell’s fraudulent 5 February 2003 UN speech?

    18. According to Julian Borger’s 17 July 2003 Guardian article entitled “The spies who pushed for war,” the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans (OSP) “forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon’s office in Israel” to provide the Bush administration with alarmist reports on Saddam’s Iraq. Who was the under secretary of defence for policy who headed the OSP?

    19. Which British-born professor emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, whose 1990 essay “The Roots of Muslim Rage” introduced the dubious concept of a “Clash of Civilizations”, has been called “perhaps the most significant intellectual influence behind the invasion of Iraq”?

    20. Apart from their key role in taking America to war against Iraq, what do the answers to questions 1 to 19 all have in common?

    Answers: 1. Albert Wohlstetter 2. Oded Yinon 3. Richard Perle 4. William Kristol and Robert Kagan 5. David Wurmser 6. Paul Wolfowitz 7. Joseph Lieberman 8. William Safire 9. Eliot Cohen 10. David Frum 11. Norman Podhoretz 12. Kenneth Adelman 13. Charles Krauthammer 14. Benjamin Netanyahu 15. Philip Zelikow 16. Elliott Abrams 17. Lewis “Scooter” Libby 18. Douglas Feith 19. Bernard Lewis 20. They are all Jewish Zionists.

    Posted 2 years ago on 24 Mar 2010 0:48 #
  2. Jews and their Agents. The Jews are a benighted lot, the bane of humanity. But what of their agents, in this particular case: the entire govt of US, their military and media, the We-the-people nation, the unceasingly, unstintingly supportive West? And others, and others?

    The Iraqis have paid a high price, but the J's and their A's are doomed to land in the dustbin of history. We'll see their downfall within our own lifetime. First the econ crash and then it's bye to bye to these shoddy, shabby people masquerading as human beings.

    Posted 2 years ago on 24 Mar 2010 8:15 #
  3. toamin
    member

    All capitalists knew well but to ensure the hegemony of capitalist world order under american leadership they collaborated with this evil work

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 4:42 #
  4. sasherwani
    Members

    An irrefutable post by Migel.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 4:50 #
  5. History of Zionist Christian

    Zionist Christain is religious group formed by the consipiracy of Jews in 16th and 17th century, who believe that the world is goining to be destroyed in 5 or 6 centuries if they don't fullfill the plan of Greater of Isreal. Zionist chirtain are sword in the hand of jews to destroy whatever they want, The Leadership of America is now consist of Zionist Chritian, rest of the christian are peaceful.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 5:09 #
  6. Very right. But the core cause as a poet said.

    HAY JURM-I-ZAIFI KI SAZA MARG-E-MAFAJAT.

    It is the ultimate consequence of weakness and lack of unity of nation. It has been happening since ancient times will continue to happen till day of judgment.

    Had the Iraq possessed real weapons of mass destruction and superior war technology nobody would have dared to attack them. Iran has understood it is continuously developing its weapon and war machine and the great US despite its strongest desire still thinking to attack Iran. That is the difference.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 5:09 #
  7. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    After reading this article, no Muslim should have any doubt who;

    (1) we are fighting with
    (2) is pulling the strings of USA, Nato and their allies in the background
    (3) controls USA/Nato's internal and external policies
    (4) pulls their strings in order to fight/conduct wars against Muslims

    People should STOP! coining the nonsense! term 'conspiracy theory' after reading this article.

    References To the above Article:

    (1) Redress.cc Article: The Twenty Zionists Who Lied and Conspired to Steer the US to Invade Iraq

    (2) Al-Jazeera.info Article: The Twenty Zionists Who Lied and Conspired to Steer the US to Invade Iraq

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 5:36 #
  8. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    From Islamic scriptures, we Muslims already! know;

    (1) After ALLAH ALMIGHTY banished them from Palestine, their holy land of the time, ALLAH ALMIGHTY warned Jews NOT! to ever return to Palestine

    (2) For if they ever returned to their previous holy land (Palestine), ALLAH ALMIGHTY will destroy them (would have them slaughtered)

    History recorded this happening once before. Its going to happen once again. This time, it will be Muslims who will destroy Jews. But only after ALL of them have gathered in Palestine.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 5:42 #
  9. sasherwani
    Members

    @ Haris,

    A big AMEEN to that :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 5:44 #
  10. I object to people who see the point of Migel's posting so well still speaking of the "great" US, unless, of course, it was meant ironically. The West is a cesspit of iniquity abd broke as hell. That is what we should keep in mind when we talk about then.

    Strange how I've met no genuine anti-West person on this blog, unless it be our Migel - and myself, of course. If anyone's interested, the way to think about the West nowadays is the way the prince of bloggers poiytr describes them at:

    http://insurrectiondaily.blogspot.com/

    He's seen through all their tricks and taught all of us to do the same.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 8:39 #
  11. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Brother, what do you mean by;

    (1) genuine anti-west person ?
    (2) We'r the only genuine anti-west person around ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 8:44 #
  12. Exactly, HK. Somewhere or the other all Pakistanis seem to feel the West is great and has achieved great things. When it's exactly the opposite. If anyone can say along with us, me and the forementioned poiuytr, that

    1. the west has never done anything ever for the world except for bringing it misery and suffering

    2. the west has never invented anything. Everything it seems to have is stolen from the rest of humanity

    3. "All things west are either deceit or crimes. They are child-murdering, genocidal, rapist and have never taken on an armed enemy in their lives."

    4. West is broke. West is toast. West is the disease.

    If anyone agrees with above points then indeed they are genuinely anti-west. Otherwise no.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 8:57 #
  13. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I agree with most of it. Yet;

    The west invented nothing ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 10:00 #
  14. ajhons
    Member

    I think the end of American supermacy has started.Wheather its their economic disaster, their rotten and almost diminshed moral and social values,or the extreme weather hiting almost all the American land, All these are adding misries to US.In fact they have survived because most of the country(Europe, China and Japan) are bailing out US because these countries saw US a their biggest market.A collapse of US might take the economy of these countries too.But change is inevitable.
    "Allah has HIS OWN plans and people have their own.BUt Allah is the biggest Planer."

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 10:11 #
  15. HK, absolutely. Nothing at all. Go discuss it with poiuytr on his blog. You don't even need to register. Just go through the Anonymous profile. He'll tell you what's what.

    ajhons: Indeed: Allah is the biggest Planner. Man proposes and God disposes. The West is toast.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 10:44 #
  16. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Mirza Ghalib: poiuytr ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 11:00 #
  17. gv
    Member

    @haris

    i think Mirza sahib meant you visit this delightful little blog: http://insurrectiondaily.blogspot.com/ to learn more about the atrocities of the big bad west...

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 11:06 #
  18. zalaan
    Blocked

    Ahmed Chalabi is Zionist ? Wao...

    How can I know which Muslim is actually a Zionist ?

    Ahmed Chalabi should be called only Zionist or Muslim Zionist or Muslim ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 11:35 #
  19. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zalaan: It depends. On where do you get your standards from.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 11:52 #
  20. zalaan
    Blocked

    Walikum-us-Salaam Warahmatullah-e-Wabarakaruhu

    Dear Brother Haris Khan ,

    I want to know which Muslim is Zionist so I will be careful .

    I also heard that some Muslims trying to pretend "Good Muslim " but they are actually Zionist .is this true ????

    Mushraf was Zionist ? How about The "Good Muslims " (MMA ) supported Pervez Musraf ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 12:26 #
  21. toamin
    member

    Zalaan

    regarding:
    "I want to know which Muslim is Zionist so I will be careful ."

    which ones are you following?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 12:46 #
  22. zalaan
    Blocked

    I just came to know Ahmed Chalabi is a Zionist ,I thought he is a Muslim .
    I do not follow any one ,I want to see the list of Muslim Zionist Or Zionist Muslim

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 13:02 #
  23. toamin
    member

    so you learned something new, why not you do research and verify it yourself?

    you can refute point#1... try it brother :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 13:09 #
  24. zalaan
    Blocked

    Why should I ,I consider ever Muslim as only Muslim ,Cannot call any one Zionist

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 13:23 #
  25. toamin
    member

    cool... then don't

    no one is asking you to do it :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 13:26 #
  26. gv (11:06) - Thanks for providing HK with clarification. It was exactly what I meant.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 14:41 #
  27. gv
    Member

    @mirza

    You know mirza sahib i just don't get it.

    On one hand you very clearly treat war and violence with considerable distaste on the other hand you appear to support a violent confrontation with the West

    Its a bit paradoxical don't you think ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 14:49 #
  28. No, gv, you don't get it. No war for me. The war has been brought to our doorstep by them, not by us. We have to fight them off with all the means at our disposal.

    We hate the West from the bottom of our hearts. Nothing good, not one little thing, has ever come out of that benighted place. But who wants any violent confrontation with the West? They're going down in any case, something we in Pakistan haven't clearly realised so far.

    The Afghans were attacked. Badly so. They could have behaved like the Japanese and said fine, come and take us over so long as you make us rich in the process. The Afghans reacted differently. Could they have done otherwise? The Iraqis were attacked. They fought back, spoiled their plans. Could they have behaved like the Japs?
    Or the Palestinians, now?

    As one blogger wrote somewhere this morning: "Some Muslims are men of IRON. As a result of their religion, many Muslims are men of IRON, fearless and unafraid to die - look at HizbAllah, Hamas, the Iraqi resistance, the Houthis, the Taliban fighters or even the Iranians, as examples...
    The scummy Israelis on the other hand are total COWARDS only interested in their own survival as a failed and corrupted species. With these basic traits understood, who do you think will win in the end?... People with such strength, spirits and principles will eventually dominate their region, regardless of time tables, regardless of the DU poisoning they have been deliberately exposed to.

    Muslims cannot not defend themselves. Furthermore, Dar-e-Islam which in its decadence was mercilessly trampled over by the West is sacred to each person who thinks of himself as a Muslim. As a Muslim can I do any other than lay down my life for the Islamic Ummah to thrive. I think this is required of me by my religious beliefs.

    Sorry, for this long post. But one more thing: I tell you, Pakistan is a model of saintliness compared to anything the West has to offer.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 15:16 #
  29. gv
    Member

    @mirza

    Well in my humble opinion things are not all that complicated. Throughout history strong states have exploited weak states. It is just a fact of life. Currently, the 'dar ul islam' as you put it, is in a weak state and therefore easily exploited by stronger members of the global political community.

    If you think about what is the basic goal of a political entity - it is to maximise power, wealth and influence - the same paradigm which is applicable to the 8th century abbaasid empire as it is to the 13th century mongols and the present day americans/chinese/russians etc

    Now since my only concern is pakistan i see the way out of this morass is by strengthening ourselves from within to avoid exploitation and abuse at the hands of the outside world so we can treat with other states superpowers or not as equals.

    This means institution and society building. It does not mean following some pipe dream of world domination and blaming everyone and their aunt for our ills.

    Our problems are of our own making. Why is that so hard for you to see?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 15:30 #
  30. gv
    Member

    "But one more thing: I tell you, Pakistan is a model of saintliness compared to anything the West has to offer."

    You are wrong - human beings are the same the world over there is proportionately as much crime, deceit and corruption in any country where the system allows it to exist.

    In the US, 100 years ago, corrupt officials were rife. Afte a long period of trial and error a system was built which slowly weeded it down to a bare miminum.

    Typically the smaller the population with respect to the national wealth (e.g. Switzerland, Scandinavian states etc) the easier it is to establish a workable efficient government

    the problem we have is that we are a country of 170m whose capacity has not been fully utilised. This simply means that it will take time to develop and build governing systems that work

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 15:35 #
  31. gv, thanks for getting back to me with such seriousness. It's kind of you. Now let me see, much of what you say sounds like common sense. But not to the ears of a Utopist like myself, perhaps. I still maintain the West is not like other places and people. It is unmatched evil as of day one, as my friend poiuytr would say. You sound so reasonable and still you haven't seemed to realise what harm neo-colonialism has wrought on the world. That we are poor, here and elsewhere, is all their doing. They put their own handfuls of population on a mad, materialist pedestal and sucked the blood out of the continents of Asia, SouthAm, Africa to pay for their extravagances and deadly wars. Their capitalist-cum-consumer system is death to the soul of man.

    Perhaps you belong to the Pakistani diaspora. In which case I can understand your devotion to the West. Otherwise, it makes little sense.

    This said, you're perfectly right to insist we in Pakistan need to help our country ourselves. Forget globalisation, autarky is the way to go. But never mind all that. Let me ask you the question that Zaid Hamid often asks of us. "Right, stop asking what did Pakistan ever do for you. What have you ever done for Pakistan?" What have we, who love to fiddle while Rome burns, ever done for our beloved country? Little, very little, alas!

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:11 #
  32. gv
    Member

    @mirza

    1) where in my post did i express any 'devotion' for the west?

    2) how come you don't mind ZH lifting a phrase off JFK

    I am not denying that colonialism or 'neo colonialism' has affected the third world in an extreme adverse manner. I am simply saying that crying and moaning about it isnt going to fix things.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:19 #
  33. zalaan
    Blocked

    @salaam

    Lagta hay Is Forum ki khilafat app ko mil gaee hay .

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:25 #
  34. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: Who brought the demise of the Muslim UMMAH/Empire ?

    How did it happen ?

    @zalaan: No, its you. You don't want to make the effort. But you do want to engage in a worthless word brawl which has ZERO constructive output, wasting others's (even if not your own) time, eating up their peace of mind.

    I see no reason why Salam or anyone should carry on with you.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:42 #
  35. gv
    Member

    @haris

    haris sahib - i fail to follow your line of argument? and how is that relevant to what i am saying?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:44 #
  36. Sorry, I meant in no way to offend you. Glad we agree about colonialism in all its dastardly forms. Agreed, too, that whining is a very stupid habit. Finally, didn't know JFK ever said the sentence in question. I know his Ich bin ein Berliner. In spite of its dubious origin, the question itself remains a valid one.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:45 #
  37. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: Muslim UMMAH was an Empire. It was brought down by people in another Empire. Those same people are still working against us today.

    They are called 'Zionists'.

    Yet, you are using words which conveniently hide their crimes and at the same time, very conveniently put ALL the garbage of blame on us.

    When Muslim UMMAH was in power, Muslims wouldn't kill innocent people in other nations in the name of 'liberating' them, did we ?

    Yes, super powers conquer other nations/Empires, yet when they kill the common man, the innocent, without any provocation, without any reason what-so-ever that's a blatant as well as brutal crime.

    Perhaps you haven't seen the thread where I posted testimonials of US soldiers on their activities in Iraq.

    Perhaps you haven't seen the thread where I posted video(s) of private contractors firing at Iraqi commoners on roads without any provocation, without any reason what-so-ever.

    I don't remember people of Muslim UMMAH doing this when IT was in power.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:45 #
  38. gv
    Member

    @Mirza

    "And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"
    From JFK's inagural address in 1961

    see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaugural_address_of_John_F._Kennedy

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:49 #
  39. gv
    Member

    @haris

    as usual your history is wrong

    there was no single monolithic empire there was a number of independent empires/kingdoms all ruled by hereditary monarchs (which is rather unislamic don't you think?)

    The last time there was a single united ummah was during the caliphate of Umar 1400 years ago.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:50 #
  40. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: The west is largely a totalitarian monarchy even today, yet you support them, you hide their crimes ?

    Why do I find this double standard in your words ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:53 #
  41. gv
    Member

    @haris

    two tiny examples that spring to mind in a 1300 year history of warfare and competition within the muslim 'ummah'

    why did the safavids fight the ottomans throughout the 1500s ?

    Why did Nadir Shah invade india in the 18th century?

    (some after thoughts - the ummayads vs the abbasids, the fatimids vs the abbasids, Babar vs Ibrahim Lodhi, humayun and the safavis vs sher shah suri, seljuks vs abbasids, the ghorids vs the ghaznavis) the list is very long my friend - this is just of the top of my head... imagine what you will find when you do some real research

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:54 #
  42. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: Muslim UMMAH was an Empire. Muslim UMMAH was united till 1924.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:54 #
  43. gv
    Member

    @haris

    1) where am i supporting the west

    2) go read some history and then debate about it

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:55 #
  44. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: You'r talking about 'hereditary monarchs', which is true for the west today.

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:57 #
  45. gv
    Member

    @haris

    i'm not even going to bother to respond to that.. stick to the main argument

    Where did mirza ghalib go? at least he doesnt manufacture his own version of history?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:00 #
  46. gv
    Member

    @haris

    well come on - i'm still waiting here...

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:09 #
  47. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: I don't know about those eras. I will openly accept crimes, mistakes of our own people. What I will not accept is baseless allegations, baseless claims.

    I do know totalitarian monarchy is true of the west, even today. So, where's democracy even in the west ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:10 #
  48. gv
    Member

    How can you make such bold statements about history 10 minutes ago and then say well you don't know about those eras..

    That my friend is not the best way to debate an issue...

    anyway thanks for your time - i seriously recommend you pick up a few books and brush up on your history.... it will help you form an accurate picture of the past and how we have reached to where we are now...

    forget the west - lets focus on cleaning ourselves up for now

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:14 #
  49. gv
    Member

    @haris

    What you fail to realise is that my objective is not to demean us or our past its to stick to facts and not conjure up some false sense of righteousness and superiority.

    i am not saying the west is good and we are bad or that we are good and they are bad

    i am simply stating facts - we need to focus on building our strengths and correcting our weaknesses - blaming the outside world for our problems is a weakness...

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:19 #
  50. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: What you don't realize is the difference in conquering other weaker countries, nation states, nations, civilizations between Muslims and non-Muslim Empires.

    I'v just mentioned crimes propagating by the current era empires in their conquests, where-as this was not true of us/Muslims.

    Muslims may have had internal problems, but they certainly didn't kill innocent people (common man) of another country, nation state, Empire that they conquered in their times.

    You are very conveniently hiding the mass level crimes, mass level murders of present era Empires, which is detestable!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:33 #

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