PKPolitics Discuss » Video Links

[closed]

Was Jinnah a Secularist?

(61 posts)
  1. Red-Scorpion
    Blocked

    Was Jinnah a Secularist?

    By Amir Mir

    Perhaps the most contentious issue in Pakistan since its very inception in 1947 is the nature of the state. Should Pakistan be a sharia based Islamic state or should she be a Modern democratic secular state? The very word 'Secular' has been demonized by a majority of religious class in Pakistan who has loosely translated the word to mean 'irreligiously' - a concept wholly divorced from secularism. In fact, the term 'secularism' is misunderstood by many all around the world. Nothing illustrates better the confusion about secularism than general public's perceptions of Pakistan's founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah.

    There is convincing evidence to suggest that Jinnah was a modern-minded secularist. However, ever since his death in 1948 - shortly after the birth of the new state - there has been a tug-of-war over his legacy. Islamists - Muslims who view Islam as a political ideology - have not been slow in claiming him as one of their own. Hamid Gul is a retired general and the former head of Pakistan's powerful intelligence agency, the ISI. He is also a well-known Islamist. What does he think of the idea that Jinnah was a secularist?

    "No, this is not accurate. I think he has been misquoted. There is only one speech on record [about the subject] - and that is on 11 August 1947 - when Pakistan had already been announced [as a state]", Hamid Gul said. "Then, in the Constituent Assembly, he made a speech, saying: 'In the new state of Pakistan, everyone will be equal before the law, and people will cease to be Muslims and cease to be Hindus, in the eyes of the law'. "But what law did he mean? He meant Islamic law. Implicitly - he was clear in his mind - he implied that it would be Islamic law. So I think Jinnah has been misquoted...[Jinnah] is quite clear that he did not want a Muslim nation-state. He wanted an Islamic state".

    Jinnah did have a vision as a moderate, although in an overall Islamic context. In his presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, August 11, 1947, Jinnah said: "Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State". Contemporary Pakistanis are often trying to deny this secularist call by Jinnah. This tussle is at the heart of Pakistan's search for a modern identity. Many eminent authors and historians from the Subcontinent as well as the West have described Jinnah as an avowedly secular leader, pointing more often than not to his one year

    in office as the Governor General of Pakistan. The opponents of this view however point out Jinnah's fervent advocacy of the Two-Nation Theory as a counter to this claim. Then in the first camp there are those who point to Jinnah's whisky drinking and swine eating habits to prove his secularism.

    The Bhartia Janata Party's President Mr L K Advani's recent resignation over his remark in Karachi that Pakistan's founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah was a secular leader has revived the old controversy – whether or not Jinnah was a secularist and if he was, why did he believe in two-nation theory? Mr Advani stated at a function organised by the Karachi Council on Foreign Relations, Economic Affairs & Law in Karachi on June 5, 2005: "I believe that Jinnah's speech to Pakistan's Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947

    is the ideal that India, Pakistan as well as Bangladesh – the three present-day sovereign and separate constituents of the undivided India of the past, sharing a common civilisational heritage – should follow". The million dollar question is, did or didn't Jinnah believe in two-nation theory and whether he was a secularist. The question was put to various historians, scholars, intellectuals and writers and following are the answers:

    Dr Rafiq Ahmed, Director Centre for South Asian Studies, former Vice Chancellor Punjab University, Lahore

    The lobby or circles of writers and intellectuals trying to prove that Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular State are quite active especially since the process of normalization of Pak-India relations started a few years ago. In the wake of frequent cultural and political exchanges between the two countries the supporters of secular Pakistan have increased their propaganda, have geared up their efforts and have created some forums to spread this notion. All those who subscribe to the secularistic view are bending backward to prove the Quaid as secular. They base their arguments on 11 August 1947 speech of the Quaid which he delivered in the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. They quote this speech in support of their view but are guilty of misinterpreting the same. According to their perception and perhaps according to the agenda given to them, they do not quote any other speech and are thus again guilty of omission and commission. Unfortunately, since its very inception, Pakistan is faced with a cultural invasion particularly from its eastern neighbour and undoubtedly this invasion has influenced some people and a feeling is growing that the nation's commitment to its Islamic ideals set by our elders is getting diluted thereby eroding our ideology.

    The factual position is that the Quaid on many occasions had clearly and unambiguously stated that Pakistan would be an Islamic democratic State and Islam would be the ideology of Pakistan. He meant what he said and he said what he meant and was never equivocal. First of all we all know that he never said that he was secular. Islam was in his blood like it is in the blood of all Pakistanis. Yet he was conscious and aware of true spirit of Islam. It was on the appeal and persuation of Allama Mohammad Iqbal that he forfeited his career as a highly successful lawyer of England and came back to lead Muslims and Muslim League.

    The best way to judge whether the founder of Pakistan was a secular or not, is to have a careful look at some of his speeches and statements on various occasions and analyze them objectively. Speaking on the occasion of the Holy Prophet's birthday at the Karachi Bar Association on 25th January 1948, the Quaid said, "The Prophet of Islam (PBUH) was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and he was a great sovereign who ruled. The life of the Prophet (PBUH) was simple according to those times. He was successful in everything that he put his hand to from as a businessman to as a ruler. The Prophet (PBUH) was the greatest man that the world had ever seen. Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundations of democracy".

    On another occasion addressing the Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947 the Quaid said, "It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles". In his concluding speech at the session of All-India Muslim League, Karachi on 26th December 1943 the Quaid said, "What is it that keeps the Muslims united as one man, and what is the bedrock and sheet-anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the Great Book, Quran, that is the sheet-anchor of Muslim India. I am sure that as we go on there will be more and more of oneness, one God, one Book, one Prophet and one Nation".

    In the message of Eid to the Muslims in September 1945 he said, "Every Mussalman knows that the injunctions of the Holy Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. From the Atlantic to the Ganges, says Gibbon, the Holy Quran is acknowledged as the fundamental code, not only of theology, but of civil and criminal jurisprudence, and the laws which regulate the action and the property of mankind are governed by immutable sanctions of the will of God". Everyone, except those who are ignorant, knows the Holy Quran is the general code of the Muslims".

    Dr Mubarak Ali, historian and former Chairman of History Department, Karachi University

    Mohammad Ali Jinnah did believe in two-nation theory and struggled for the creation of an independent homeland of Muslims on the very basis of the theory. Jinnah used to be a perfect secularist as far as his private life was concerned, yet he believed in using religion for public consumption to achieve his political ends. The propelling slogan during the struggle for Pakistan was to establish a distinct identity of Muslims as a nation. And Jinnah used Islam as a motivating force to rally the Muslims to the cause of Pakistan politically. But the state they aimed to create was to be secular, not a theocracy. And the method to achieve the goal was not a religious movement but political agitation.

    I. A. Rehman, former Editor Daily The Pakistan Times, Director Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP)

    Mohammad AIi Jinnah's two-nation theory lacked clarity. He did not base his theory on the religion alone but also on the basis of territorial majority. If we examine his statements that only the Muslims in the Muslim majority provinces of India constituted a separate nation while the rest of the Muslims in India were not part of that nation, we can find out the problem in sustaining that theory. That's why, Jinnah said goodbye to the two-nation theory at the first opportunity that is on August 11, 1947.

    Secondly, Jinnah was a secularist given the fact that he always adopted a secular approach while dealing with constitutional and legal issues. People today should realize that the Indian-Muslim community had a number of prominent people who were deeply religious and also secular in politics. These included Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Maulana Hasrat Mohani, Hakeem Ajmal Khan etc. The apparent contradiction in Jinnah's creed was the result of communalization of politics in India which certainly did not match with his philosophy.

    Dr. Hassan Askari Rizvi, Political Analys, former Chairman Political

    Science Department, Punjab University, Lahore

    Mohammad Ali Jinnah did believe in a two-nation theory as stated by him quite often especially in the only article he wrote for a British weekly Time and Tide, published in March 1940 and his speech on the occasion of the passing of the Lahore resolution in March 1940. On both these occasions, Jinnah clearly stated that the Muslims of the sub-continent were a nation entitled to a homeland.

    Secondly, Jinnah definitely was a secularist who viewed Islam as an instrument of identity formation and political mobilization for the Muslims of South Asia. Whenever he talked of Islam, he also talked about the modern notion of the state, constitutionalism, civil and political rights and equal citizenship irrespective of religion or any other consideration. This means that he was neither for a religious or orthodox Islamic state nor for a secular system in the classical Marxist terms. His view was that Pakistan would be a modern, democratic state which derives its ethical formation from Islam.

    Imtiaz Alam, Secretary General South Asia Free Media Association (SAFMA)

    Mohammad Ali Jinnah envisioned Pakistan as a modern democratic state to be run strictly on the basis of merit and where all citizens will be equal before the law. Jinnah's ideas about what the new state should be like were very clear as can be seen from his speeches and statements. He meant Pakistan to be a progressive state in which there would be scope neither for intolerance nor for obscurantism and whose highest aims would be expressed in the social, cultural and economic uplift of the masses.

    Only three days before Pakistan formally appeared on the world map, Jinnah, in his August 11, 1947 memorable speech to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan stated the principle on which the new state was to be founded: "You may belong to any religion or caste or creed -- that has nothing to do with the business of the state ...... We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and citizens of one state....... in the course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state".

    Rashid Rehman, writer, columnist, former Editor Daily The Frontier Post

    In my view, there are two Jinnahs not one. The younger one was a nationalist who was dubbed as an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity because of his efforts in keeping the independence movement united. But at the same time, he was also a constitutionalist and a democrat of the old British school. He, therefore, incrementally had grave reservation about Gandhi's use of religion and mass mobilization as the means to independence. Jinnah subsequently changed his stance and took on the view that the Muslims constituted a separate nation in terms of language, culture and way of life. He soon emerged as the champion of the rights of an increasingly insecure Muslim minority in India. But despite his change of views, Jinnah tried to the last to obtain warranty for socio-political and economic rights of the Muslims of India through constitutional guarantees and arrangements in a united independent India.

    Secondly, Mohammad Ali Jinnah was a true secularist and an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity. He had to change his stance after he returned from London and discovered the new trend of promoting Hindu culture. He made it clear in his first speech to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947 that he wanted a state which would allow maximum freedom of religious beliefs and practice while the state would treat each citizen equally. This is the classical definition of a classical state. It is another matter that Pakistan has not followed Jinnah's philosophy.

    That Pakistan's founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah advocated many different types of Nationalism at different times in his career is an undeniable fact. Broadly speaking, he was a staunch secular Indian Nationalist right until his reiteration of Sir Syed's two-nation theory. From that point till the creation of Pakistan in August 1948, he was the supporter of Muslim Nationalism, after 3rd June 1947 he seemed to favour Secular Pakistani Nationalism. This however is of no consequence to his credentials as a secularist. Neither is his dietary observation (whisky drinking and swine eating) which can only prove his 'religiosity'. To cut the long story short, Jinnah was a secularist simply because he endorsed the principle of the separation of Church and State, which is the active definition of Secularism in our times.

    http://www.cobrapost.com/documents/JinnahSecularist.htm

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:03 #
  2. msohail83
    Member

    How many times does this topic need to be discussed with absolutely no consesus/agreement?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:10 #
  3. Red-Scorpion
    Blocked

    Jinnah was a staunch secularist and he wanted Pakistan to be a secular state instead of a theocratic one !

    I'm quoting some famous excerpts from his address to Pakistan's first Constituent Assembly delivered on 11th August, 1947 for your easy reference

    """You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State. """

    """We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. """

    """Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do no exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.
    Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."""

    Source:Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Speeches and Statements as Governor General of Pakistan 1947 - 48.

    Published (1989) by Government of Pakistan, Ministry of Information & Broadcasting, Directorate of Films & Publications, Islamabad

    AND

    Dawn, Independence Day Supplement, August 14, 1999.

    Some links to speech

    http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:12 #
  4. Dervaish
    Member

    Was Jinnah a secularist?

    Yes, in private only but not in public, unlike Jawaharlal Nehru who was a secular in public and non-secular in private. This is a well known view argued extensively and persuasively by the Indian thinker Ashis Nandy.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:12 #
  5. Anonymous

    Yes, Jinnah was a secularist Muslim, having pains in his heart for the Muslims of sub-continent.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:15 #
  6. Red-Scorpion
    Blocked

    @Darvaish

    ""
    Was Jinnah a secularist?
    Yes, in private only but not in public,""

    >>>

    Have you read the excerpts of his address of 11th Aug, which I've posted above ?

    BTW what do you mean by 'in private Jinnah was secular' ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:17 #
  7. amin1924
    member

    A secular Muslim is a Muslim who believes that governmental practices should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

    Secularism is usually misunderstood in Pakistan as disbelieving in Islam which it totally incorrect. A tableeghi jamaat member believing in no political role of Islam in state affairs is as secular as any western liberal secular.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 10:59 #
  8. Anonymous

    In Pakistan for Aihlay Tashih & other Non Muslims Sects raise the voice in high pitch tone too loudly to bear that Qauid e Azam was die hard Secular Minded Person who even did not know who is Allah Jj & his beloved prophet Muhammad Ss. Ma-Az Allah Jj --- As they always refer the address of Muslim League Convention of 6th Oct.'46 if I am wrong Date Wise Pardon Me.

    On the other hand Sunni ul Fiqah they always refer Qauid e Azam was strictly an Orthodox Muslim & refer the followings:

    Khush Raho Aihlay Chaman - Lakin Faqat Yeh Yaad Rakho
    Jou Quam Apnay Asal Kee Taraf Nahee Aatee - Uskee Budhalli Deikho-

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 11:01 #
  9. Anonymous

    Jo khush-haal hain, woh kion khoosh-haal hein?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 11:57 #
  10. zjshami
    Member

    The most important point is how Pakistan could serve better her 180 Millions population.
    1. After an International Comparative Study it has been acknowledged that the States with Secular, Democratic, Liberal and Tolerant philosophy have done better than Theocratic type of Systems.
    2. In Pakistan, since 1947, during all the elections, 95% of people voted for Secular and Liberal Parties and Leaders.
    3. The Religious Parties combined could not bag more that 5% of support.
    4. One must accept this reality that we love our Religion but cannot live according to Religion.
    5. The 20% of every religion is possibly practicable where the rest of 75% portion cannot be practiced but should be respected.
    6. The most effective and workable formula would be a balanced combination of the moral values blended with modern social, economic and political concepts and such a balanced blend is known as Secularism.

    aaeen-i-nau se darna, tarz-i-kuhan pe ardna
    manzil yahee kathan hai qoumoon ki zindagi mein

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 11:58 #
  11. Dervaish
    Member

    JJKhan: There is no such thing as a "secular Muslim", strictly speaking. That is a contradiction, an oxymoron

    And, therefore, you are right that "secularism is usually misunderstood" in a country like Pakistan (as is liberalism and modernity as such!).

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 13:44 #
  12. chechen
    Member

    1. After an International Comparative Study it has been acknowledged that the States with Secular, Democratic, Liberal and Tolerant philosophy have done better than Theocratic type of Systems.

    Whose study? what study? There is not a SINGLE so called "theocratic" state in world today. I challenge you to show me one.

    2. In Pakistan, since 1947, during all the elections, 95% of people voted for Secular and Liberal Parties and Leaders.

    Even if it 100% does not mean anything.

    3. The Religious Parties combined could not bag more that 5% of support.

    The democratic system itself is kufr based and flawed. I can show and prove it is flawed but it isa long topic. Those "religious" parties do not understand Islam.

    4. One must accept this reality that we love our Religion but cannot live according to Religion.

    Western pagan concept and has no bearing.

    5. The 20% of every religion is possibly practicable where the rest of 75% portion cannot be practiced but should be respected.

    This is blasphemy against Quran when Prophet SAS said in his farewell address that he has perfected the "religion" ( deen).

    6. The most effective and workable formula would be a balanced combination of the moral values blended with modern social, economic and political concepts and such a balanced blend is known as Secularism.

    You cannot mix pure water with juice and call it pure water. Islam cannot coexist with pagan philosophies. It can tolerate the as it tolereted minorities for over 1000 years but cannot be part of it to govern.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 13:46 #
  13. zjshami
    Member

    Just examining the pattern of life in Pakistan we find that the whole structure is saturated with secular way of life.
    1. All of the infra structure, Institutions, Organs of the government, norms of social life, streets, shopping centers, Educational Institutions, daily functional proceedings, entertainment and Sports are imbued with secular system.
    It will take another 1400 years to complete the reconstruction of a construction after its destruction.
    2. Majority of the Muslim Population is scared of a dangerous and damaging interpretation of the Holy Quran and Islam which doesn't match the true spirit and motive of Allah and the Holy Prophet PBUH.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 13:59 #
  14. zjshami:

    becarefull on the forum, do not disclose personal information, there are individuals over here who will harm you emotionally and if possible physically due to your "understanding" of Pakistani issues.....

    they will trick you into disclosing your address or personal email.

    ex ad-visor to Benazeer Bhutto was a regular on the forum and he was threatened with physical violence only about 4 weeks or so ago.

    I am sure you are a brave and Allah wala person, but just exercise caution about giving out personal information.

    just a brotherly advise cause once they label you as qadyani, shia, kafir, etc, then they will search you out ........and guess what no one comes to your defense, every one shakes hands and enjoys demise of a scholar......

    so just a brotherly advice and there is no need to respond to my post as well...

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:13 #
  15. chechen
    Member

    1. Legacy of colonial rule thrust on our heads. It is the root cause of present mess. Secular system was meant for them and Kuffars like India but not us.

    2.Again blasphemous statement devoid of truth. Majority is ignorant and brainwashed by pagan beliefs and systems. Islam has the intrinsic capablities and only solution to all man made problems ranging from pollution to corruption. This was stated by Dr. Murad Hoffman, former German ambassador and regular visitor to Islamic conventions in US Please try to attend his lectures or google them.

    Dear Sister Shami, Give me your address and I will be glad to sent his Book as Ramadan Gift. Don't have to give your actual address . I can post it to your PO Box if you have any.

    http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Alternative-Murad-Hofmann/dp/091595771X

    http://www.geocities.com/embracing_islam/islam_in_the_west.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:18 #
  16. zjshami
    Member

    Dear Mulla,
    Thanks for a very useful advice.
    I would try to be careful.
    I also find that most of the Opinion Forums has been bombarded by a particular School of Thought with a zero level of tolerance.
    Their frustration at Discussion Forums leads them to negative actions.
    I am here at the forum to learn not to fight.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:26 #
  17. and being a women is doubly worryfull, they harvest your email account and mass mail all your contacts with very negative stuff.

    Just read the Sassi palejo story in the news in pakistan, a psychotic person sending 100 emails a day and then sending love letters in blood....causing stress and grief and badnami for a females, in our pakistani society there is no "forgiveness" once a mistake is made for regular folks and no one cares , no one does tahkeek!

    so becareeeeeeeeeeeeefull and cautious!

    thats all baki Allah malik ast! Mola Waris Ast!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:34 #
  18. chechen
    Member

    Mulla, Don't try to hide your real with good samaritan acting. Every one on this forum knows the filthy language and abuse you resort to. You have audacity to lecture others when you have used the most ghatia language on this forum. You even resorted to abuse others in local language too. You were banned on this forum for whatever reasons but they should have banned you for your gutter language.

    I wish Sister Shami should have see some of your previous posts. This is Ramadan. Weep and repent.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:40 #
  19. it was you and your team who threatened to burn 72 year old member on the forum , remember, after which majority of the scholars left!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:47 #
  20. chechen
    Member

    concocted lie. If we have such "scholars" then we are better off without them. And that "burning" was a reference and not a threat and was a Quranic punishment that you hear from local Mullah dozens of time a day. Why so much fuss over it?

    Moderators know exactly who instigated it.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:54 #
  21. zjshami
    Member

    Dear Chechan,
    About your objection at the following sentence from my posting,
    "The 20% of every religion is possibly practicable where the rest of 75% portion cannot be practiced but should be respected."
    I would supplement that please show me a single Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh or Jew who practices 100% of the religion?
    Show me a place on the Earth where 100% of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hindu or Sikh religion is in practice?
    I will surrender.
    Thanks for your offer for the book. Honestly we have a big library at our basement with a collection of thousands of books, audio and video cassettes, including the recordings from Dr.Murad Hoffman's lectures.
    .

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:55 #
  22. Dervaish
    Member

    Can you two cartoons (Mullah and Chechen) please make a separate thread where you can fight it out ? Why do you have to clog every thread with your gibberish all the time ?

    And please stop using the word "scholar" so flippantly!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:55 #
  23. chechen
    Member

    There are more than 2 including you, whirling D

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 14:57 #
  24. chechen
    Member

    Shami,

    Single Muslim= Murad Hofman, French Philosophetr turned Muslim Raja Garuady and thousands like them. Most are "new" Muslims. They won't say by themselves they are 100% but others who live and interact with them know that.

    100% Islam is at present practiced in some "enclaves" around the world that are now growing fast and furious and will reach to where we live. Insha'Allah

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 15:03 #
  25. khurram Zaman
    Member

    chechen,

    just leave the confuse ones in their holes.They will be killed pulling them out of their dirty holes.
    They have always a good use bad language when short of their logics..
    So dont touch the dirty ones and will make ur fingures full of dirt..

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 15:07 #
  26. Darvesh:

    yes no more fighting.....and we are encouraging people to "step up" to the levels of "scholars" and yes its iritating to use the word for low lives..but what is our chance....

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 16:45 #
  27. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I said it before, I'll say it again;

    The chances of Quaid-e-Azam being secular are as good me winning the woman's beauty contest.

    NO!!! dammit!!! HE WAS NEVER SECULAR.

    He was ALWAYS a great Muslim. He followed ALLAMA Iqbal's ideals. ALL of ALLAMA Iqbal's work is BASED on Quran.

    Those who call Jinnah secular should be shot on sight. Why? Because they are creating a divide between us, our opinions about Quaid-e-Azam, they are confusing us, the people of Pakistan.

    It is high time we rejected it and moved forward into the future

    If Muslims or Quaid-e-Azam wanted to be secular, they NEVER!!! NEEDED to create Pakistan for themselves. India was and still claims to be a secular state.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 16:47 #
  28. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    There is NO!!!! damned secular Muslims. There's either Muslim or secularist.

    Why? Because 'secularism' means, you negate the existence or belief in RELIGION

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 16:59 #
  29. zia m
    Member

    "Those who call Jinnah secular should be shot on sight. Why? Because they are creating a divide between us, our opinions about Quaid-e-Azam, they are confusing us, the people of Pakistan"

    You need to check with a Psychiatric health professional at your earliest convenience.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:00 #
  30. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    You can call a Muslim who doesn't practice Islam, a non-practicing Muslim.

    But there is NO!!!! reason to call them secular, as long as they are a Muslim, as long as they believe in Islam.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:00 #
  31. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: Let me take this oppertunity to say the same for you :D

    why?

    because you'v obviously chosen to forget the 'result' of being 'divided'.

    You'v forgotten what happened in Iraq, in Yugoslavia. You'v forgotten all the deaths/murders because of people divided for any number of reasons.

    Why don't you read Iqbal's books and find out what it means to be divided, before your ego turns you into a hate-mongerer. It has obviously made you to skip pondering on my words, and react impulsively

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:01 #
  32. chechen
    Member

    Assalamu Alaikum WRBT Haris,

    True. He may have been very much influenced by Allama but his life style was secular to the core. Saying that he was following Iqbal's ideal is not enough. Some of the questions that come to my mind. Did he pray Jumah in congregation? Did he pay Zakat? Did he fast in Ramadan? Did he go for Haj? Did he object when his photo was printed on currency? Why he didn't dress and identify with average Pakistani in dress code? May be he did. I don't know. Please enlighten us with his Islamic credentials.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:06 #
  33. Walaikum-Assalam-Warahmat-ULLAH,

    @chechen: I'v said it before. You can call him a 'non practicing Muslim'. But you can't call him 'secular'.

    He was NOT! a person who negated religion. He was NOT!!! person who negated Islam, its teachings.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:09 #
  34. zia m
    Member

    hariskhan
    You don't know the definition of secularism.It is Not being irreligious you have religious freedom in secular regimes.
    Stop advocating shooting everybody who disagrees with your fanatic ideas.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:15 #
  35. chechen
    Member

    It is Not being irreligious you have religious freedom in secular regimes.

    Very good example of religious freedom is secular India where Muslims are living like third class citizens and subjected to genocide in Kashmir and Gujarat.

    The differences between Islam and secularism are substantial. The issue at hand is none other than the difference between monotheism and polytheism.

    The phrase “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give unto Allah what is Allah’s” is exactly what the pagans in Mecca were saying when the Prophet (peace be upon him)
    was sent to them.

    Allah informs us in the Qur’ân that they used to say:
    “They assign unto Allah, of the crops and cattle which He created, a portion, and they say: ‘This is for Allah - in their make-believe – ‘and this is for His partners with respect to us’.” [Surah al-An`âm: 136]
    “Yet they attribute to some of His servants a share with Him.” [Sûrah al-Zukhruf: 15]

    This Jâhiliyyah of today is exactly like the Jâhiliyyah of old. They say that the mosque is for Allah and everything else is for “Caesar”. The schools are for Caesar. The media is for other than Allah. They restrict Islam to the mosque and the prayer room. Everything else is to be governed without resort to Islamic Law. This is outright polytheism.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:26 #
  36. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I read this on wikipedia;

    Secularism is the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

    In this case, I'll quote Iqbal on secularism;

    'Juda ho deen siyasat se to reh jati hai changezi'

    Also, I'll say that Musharraf tried to make Pakistan a secular state. He also raised the 'Pakistan first' slogan. For which again, I'll quote Iqbal;

    In taaza khudao'n main barha sab se watan hai
    jo pairahan is kaa hai wo mazhab ka kafan hai
    aqwaam!! main makhlooq-e-khuda bat'ti hai is se
    qaumee-yat-e-Islam ki jarh kat'ti hai is se
    baazoo tera tauheed!! ki qoowat se qawi hai
    Islam tera!! dais! hai, tu!! mustafa'vi!! hai
    nazzaara-e-dereena zamaane ko dikha de
    ay mustafa'vi khaak main is but ko mila de

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:33 #
  37. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    My point is, Muslims created Pakistan to live according to rules/principles, ways of life that Islam prescribes.

    Islam doesn't allow secularism, because in Islamic practice, the state CANNOT be separated from religion.

    Again, reference to my quote from Iqbal as I put up before

    'Juda ho deen siyasat se to reh jati hai changezi'

    I believe, since Quaid-e-Azam made Pakistan as a laboratory for people to practice Islam freely, by that token, he ALSO believed in what Islam says about this matter

    Also, if we look at ALL the history of Muslim UMMAT, we find that religion played an integral part in imparting state affairs.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:35 #
  38. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: In my statements, I have NEVER decreed that a person be shot for negating what I said.

    I forcefully asked for THAT person to be shot or shot on sight who 'created' 'divide' 'between us'.

    There's a subtle difference here

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:41 #
  39. hariskhan
    I forcefully asked for THAT person to be shot or shot on sight who 'created' 'divide' 'between us'

    What is more humane? Shooting by a firing squad or a quick beheading with a black flag in the background.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 17:54 #
  40. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    When I ask for a person to be shot, I am actually calling the state or its responsible authority to do it, rather than an individual.

    Your colourful metaphor does not apply here, as I'm not calling 'individuals' to do it

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:07 #
  41. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I will show zeal and forcefull-ness in the matters of state.

    Its a matter of the collective. It represents us. It is VERY important to be correct/authentic at the collective level

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:08 #
  42. chechen
    Member

    lota, beheading is minimum pain. That's sharia which is Allah's law. Ask any doctor. The worst pain is electrc chair, lethal gas, firing squad. What is your black flag? When we are in the lowest rank of hell fire-blackhole, we would wish that we should have bowed to that black flag of the duniyah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:09 #
  43. chechen I am already convinced that beheading is very good option after watching this video in fact if Pakistan becomes sharia compliant I would gladly apply for this job.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:15 #
  44. zia m
    Member

    Most of the Mullahs fall in the category of those who cause divide and hate amongst Muslims.That is the reason we have so many sects.
    hariskhan is right they all should be prosecuted and brought to justice.I won't advocate killing anybody.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:16 #
  45. chechen
    Member

    Sure, Maybe Divide or hate but to be precise sort out munafiqeen that are subservient to their ertswhile and current neo colonialistic masters. It is not a right but duty. There is bountiful reward for that in this duniya and akhira.

    Lota, It is not the question of applying for the job. You will be forcefully kidnapped to do that job cuz of your familiarity and experience.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:24 #
  46. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: You chose to forgot MMA. Why?

    MMA was MADE!!! to unite Muslims of Pakistan, to bring harmony between them, to bring unity of purpose, to quell sectarian violence

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:25 #
  47. zia m
    Member

    I don't see any MMA anywhere,all the sects are still at each others throats.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:33 #
  48. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Let me repeat, MMA is NOT a political party. Its a 'tehreek'

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:36 #
  49. khurram Zaman
    Member

    Any body out their can claim that Allama Iqbal was following or written letters to Jinaah to come and lead,as claimed by our history.
    Their was no such relationship existed ever.
    Allama Iqbal was the real Hero but political history degraded Allama when comparing with Jinah.This is so-called history written our books.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:43 #
  50. khurram Zaman
    Member

    zia,
    Your paper efforts claiming all sects at throat is old tactic over here.
    Go on with ur paper work it will never be practical.
    Muslims never kill their own muslims but they never tolerated non-muslims claiming themselves muslims.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Sep 2009 18:45 #

RSS feed for this topic

Topic Closed

This topic has been closed to new replies.