PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

What is Hell

(48 posts)
  1. hkbajwa
    Member

    Actually i think great harm has been done by human beings that consider the threat of Hell to be more effective at keeping " believers within the fold". The promise of eternal happiness is not nearly as effective as the threat of eternal damnation.

    Personally i have had many different thoughts about hell. I cannot believe in a loving god that would condemn his most loved creation to eternal damnation. It's a self-contradiction. Anyhow i have resolved this issue in my own little way.

    I think that the confusion comes in who actually passes sentence. We have a vision in our minds that we will be pleading for our souls and a stone-cold god will sentence us. In fact i am sure many worry that they will be thrown into the fires of hell without understanding why.

    I do not think that God will sentence us to hell. It will be ourselves.

    Man is inherently good. We have within us a compass that allows us to figure out the difference between good and bad. I believe that at the moment of death our consciousness truly awakens. We will be able to see the absolute truth of our lives and its effects. We will be able to see our actions, thoughts and feelings for what they actually are. And we will feel pain. We will feel pain for all those things we did contrary to our conscience (unless we have already felt the pain in this world - occasionally we do pay our penance by accepting our wrongdoings in this world, however mostly we tend to justify those wrongdoings).

    Anyhow the fires of hell are within us. Those fires are stoked every time we act contrary to our conscience. Our CONSCIENCE mind you, not our professed religion or doctrine. It's a fact that the truth hurts. And that is what hell is. When the truth will hurt. Because we will be unable to deny it.

    Hell is actually Truth.. and truth hurts lies. Hell is the process of excorcism of those lies that we have internalised in our conciousness. However as any exorcism it has a beginning, a middle and an end.

    I do not believe hell is eternal. It is the temporary phase of pain that the human mind has to go through when confronted with its wrongdoing.

    Btw this is why i disagree with christian doctrine that man is essentially sinful (a theme parroted by many a mullah too nowadays). If we were inherently sinful hell would be the inevitable destination of all humans. Only if we are inherently good can hell be temporary. And i cannot believe that a loving God would condemn a soul to hell for eternity without parole or without the possibility of forgiveness. How could he be Al – rahim if there was no possibility of mercy.

    Goodness is not a battle AGAINST our natures ( as some would have you believe ) but rather it is the battle FOR our nature. It is the battle to bring out our inherent goodness which gets suppressed in our ignorance and in the pain of this world.

    That is why being honest feels good and gives peace. That is why taking care of your loved ones feels good and brings peace. Thatis why seeing happy people around you brings happiness and peace to your heart. It is a vile lie spread by salvation peddlers through the ages that humans are bad.

    After all if we aren't inherently bad , then that means we can find our way to god through our conscience and WITHOUT the ministrations of some quack claiming to know the "will of god"... and that is a threat to ANY religious bureaucracy).

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 13:56 #
  2. @ khbajwa,
    You have ignited a highly philosophical thread what needs a lot of intellectual exercise.
    Several years back, one of my students, asked me the same question that why God would punish, what He created out of love?
    I have a little bit different problem to understand the reality of Hell.
    1. Which element of human structure feels pain,
    Body or soul?
    2. Why the soul and body doesn't feel any pain, when lying unconscious at an operation theater during a surgery?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 14:28 #
  3. naseemkhanan
    Member

    Those who believe in life after death also believe in Hell and Heaven.
    It all depends on your beliefs and/or the religion you follow.
    As long as the concept of reward or punishment exists hell and heaven exist likewise.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 14:39 #
  4. If you're a Muslim, The Holy Quran and the Sunnah should be your criterion or touchstone for beliefs.

    What you've stated goes against many unequivocal ayahs of the Holy Quran. Punishment and reward being eternal in the life hereafter is mentioned in so clear words, that there is no need for any kind of interpretation.

    The word 'love' has misguided many into believing that the ever-loving God will never punish them for their sins. Christians are misguided into believing that God loves them and died for their sins, so they can now do anything and everything they want to, and they'll get away with it. Bani Israel fell into same kind of trap of shaytan, believing that they're the most loved ones of God, how is that they will be punished eternally for their misdeeds. But we do know, that many nations were destroyed before for violating the laws of Allah(swt) and the eternal punished still awaits them.

    'Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire: therein will be for them the eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Signs.'
    (Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #28)

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 15:00 #
  5. Death is the separation of body and soul.
    It is generally believed that soul stays alive even after death.
    1. Which element of human structure feels pain from punishment, Body or Soul?
    2. Why the soul and body doesn't feel any pain, when lying unconscious at an operation theater during a surgery?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 15:18 #
  6. zia m
    Member

    Pain is only felt through nervous system.All animals and humans feel pain because they have nervous sytem, plants are also living beings but don't feel any pain, they have
    no nervous system.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:30 #
  7. @zia m
    Agreed that pain is a feeling felt through a nervous system. But still a question comes to my mind.
    I have heard about a plant with a common name of 'chooi mooi'. This plant when touched by a female will stay as it is. When a male (humans) touches it it will droop instantly.

    Without a nervous system, that plants don't have still this plant makes a difference! Curious to know HOW.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:47 #
  8. @zia m
    Plants dont have a nervous system but do plants have Consciousness? How does a sunflower find where the sun is on the horizon and faces that way?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:04 #
  9. @hkbajwa
    Is hell a literal place or a Metaphor?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:06 #
  10. zia m
    Member

    Mirza Sb,lota
    The plant you are talking about must belong to Mimosa family.They develop sensitivity to touch.I believe certain plants through evolution develop certain chemicals within their cells.I think (not sure) it is sort of self defense mechanism.
    I will try to find some more details.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:15 #
  11. zia m
    I mentioned the common sun flower. I have no information about choi moi.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:21 #
  12. hkbajwa
    Member

    Well perhaps the difference is that the body feels the nervous impulse of pain, but the soul feels the torment of anguish.

    I think the physical pain we feel is a tool to keep our vessels alive. Likewise the pangs of a conscience are there to keep our souls alive.

    The spectrum and degree of physical pain, however is but a fraction of the anguish of tortured conscience.

    I believe that when we die we leave behind the physical pain of our vessels but quickly realize that it was inconsequential in comparison to both the joy and anguish our souls can feel.

    I dunno though. Just a comforting thought i guess.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:21 #
  13. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ lota

    Metaphor definately. However what the metaphor means is completely open to interpretation.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:22 #
  14. hkbajwa
    is the soul an invented concept or is there really such a thing?
    Is everything an interpertaion?
    Things would be easier to understand if we could somehow define Consciousness.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:23 #
  15. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ lota

    I'm not sure what a soul is, but i have no doubt that it's wonderous and wonderful.

    Human beings have the luxury of awareness of being a part of a greater consciousness. That requires not only the hardware of our bodies, but also the software of our souls. We are so to speak a sub-program of a greater program. Like software a soul has no measureable mass, but rather exists as a concept that can be measured by its influence.

    A soul is basically the software that runs the hardware of our body.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:29 #
  16. Chooi Mooi is a plant, I guess also known as Lajwanti, which feels ashamed by the touch of a male.
    Chooi (Touch) Mooi (Died) means, which dies with a touch.
    There are plants with very strange and magical behavior during human presence.
    This is separate subject to be discussed.

    But here I appreciate the information provided by Zia M, about the nervous system, what makes lot of sense.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:31 #
  17. A soul is basically the software that runs the hardware of our body.
    Is that not the job of our brain? If you are not sure what it is than how can you attribute qualities good or bad to it?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:33 #
  18. 'A soul is basically the software that runs the hardware of our body.'
    WOW.
    What a comprehensive statement?
    I pull my hat off, to Mr. Lota6177.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:39 #
  19. Javed Shiekh Sahab
    Sir, the hats off goes to MR Hkbajwa since he made the above statement. I respectfully disagree with that statement. I credit the human brain with all consiousness. A soul that has a separate existence in its entirety from a human is something I dont beleive in.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:41 #
  20. zia m
    Member

    lota,
    You are very familiar with evolution.Plants are also our distant relatives.Through evolution plants developed photo sensitivity and sensitivity to touch, there even some plants that are carnivorous.

    Soul is a product of our brains, i don't think it exists separately.Neuro science has made lot of progress in past few years but my knowledge is very limited.
    Please share any information you have.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:48 #
  21. zia m
    consiousness is still not understood and is being worked on. We can only guess for now.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:53 #
  22. naseemkhanan
    Member

    A soul is basically the software that runs the hardware of our body.
    Wow....who wrote that software?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:58 #
  23. Dear Mr. Lota6177,
    I always appreciate and commend something reasonable, appealing and non-emotional.
    It is really hard to accept and believe what cannot be understood due to human limitations.
    We don't have to question, for the sake of peace, some of the secrets of the universe, still undiscovered.
    The eternal existence of soul is still an enigma to be proved.
    How could I believe that the souls of humans, who died thousands years before, still exist somewhere?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:16 #
  24. zia m
    Member

    We are made of star dust, when we die we become part of the Universe.As long as the carbon atom exists we will exist in one form or another.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:26 #
  25. Javed Sheikh Sahab
    Sir, I agree that most of the secrets of the universe are undiscovered.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:28 #
  26. @lota6177
    Conscious and the subconscious mind indeed is still a mystery. A field where humanity has managed but not much.
    Soul is something else.
    It has left the body before clinical death is declared. Still death has not happened at a molecular level even when rigor mortis has set in. How many stages one has to undergo to die completely!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:38 #
  27. @semirza
    It is my understanding that soul/spirit is a concept developed by some religions, spiritual traditions, and philosophies. There is no evidence that something like a soul actually exists.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:44 #
  28. Indeed. I think still there is a lot of research going on in this regard.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:05 #
  29. junaid
    Member

    quote/How could I believe that the souls of humans, who died thousands years before, still exist somewhere? /quote

    do you even believe that soul exists?
    if i am not wrong you are some atheist creature.
    how could you believe? in order to believe you need to possess eemaan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 0:42 #
  30. nagatorpun
    Member

    on the role of hell in religion, it is just a comedy.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 0:56 #
  31. Al-Waqi'a

    92. And if he be of those who treat (Truth) as Falsehood, who go wrong,

    93. For him is Entertainment with Boiling Water.

    94. And burning in Hell-Fire.

    95. Verily, this is the Very Truth and Certainly.

    96. So celebrate with praises the name of thy Lord, the Supreme.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 4:06 #
  32. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Naseem

    God is the operating system of the universe that developed the programs that are human beings.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 4:21 #
  33. hell wohh jagah hay ;jo Allah ne apnay Insaaf ko qaim karnay kay liye banai hay .
    agar hell na hoti .tou yahan sub chor ,daku ,loteray ,khoni ,qatil ,rapist aur smuggler hotay ....

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 4:51 #
  34. @Choosy

    What the hell is this

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 4:56 #
  35. i have read Khalil Jibran some time ago ;he says ;
    one day Mikael (the angel )was about to kill Iblees (the evil) then Iblees came up with following ;
    aye Mikael ,mujahy marr kay tumko kiya milay ga?
    tumko pata hay ,Shataan hi hay jo duniya ka tawazun qaim rakhay hoye hay>..
    tum jantay nahin kay meri wajah se kitnay gharon kay cholay jal rahay hain ????
    har Priest ,Moulvi ,mazhabi aalim ka ghar meri wajah se chal raha hay ...
    mein marr gaya tou wohh kiss se dara dara kay rozi kamaeyin gay ?
    mein marr gaya tou neeki aur badi ka tawazun khatum ho jaye ga .
    mein marr gaya tou duniya pheeki aur yak-rangi ho jaye gi.

    so on and so forth .

    same goes for hell.
    hell is the balance Allah has created .
    if you are working in a company .
    company gives u some rewards ie salary package ,bonus ,allowances ,appreciation letter ,gratuity etc.
    plus it has some punishments on late comings ,excessive holidays and disobedience of rules like show cause notices ,money cuts and termination etc.

    how can u imagine that this whole world is going without any reward and punishment rule ?
    if a small company can not run without it ????

    then why some ppl just abuse others ,loot their money ,had a lavish life and dies without any punishment?
    no there is a very strong system of reward and punishment,this world is running through .

    and its called one side heaven other side hell.
    which keeps a Banda of Allah ,on track...

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 5:08 #
  36. @ Mr. junaid,
    "quote/How could I believe that the souls of humans, who died thousands years before, still exist somewhere? /quote"

    You didn't answer the question but got emotional and sentimental.
    Please come up with a convincing reference to make me believe that the souls of Aurangzeb, Shah Jahan, Halakoo Khan, Anarkali, Prince Saleem, Sohni and Mahinwal are still roaming in the universe.

    Had you asked the same question, my answer, instead of throwing a Fatwa, would have been that 'they are resting at the Aalam-e-Barzakh.'

    What is Aalam-e-Barzakh?

    That's what our heavy weight scholars and intellectuals are discussing at this thread.

    Please go with the flow of debate, before jumping to a conclusion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:43 #
  37. toamin
    member

    soul?

    what is soul?

    this thread is related with religion & faith so should be shifted to its proper position

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:46 #
  38. Moved to Faith and Religion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:50 #
  39. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    Salam,

    Where have you been ? :))

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:52 #
  40. toamin
    member

    hkbajwa,

    sorry for not reading in detail but i think before one attempts to define "gods wisdom" one should make reference to the divine message that came from god as a creation can never comprehend it's creator-

    i am suggesting to agree to a source of message that is confirmed to be from Allah and only that message can explain the "wisdoms" or informations on unseen-

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:07 #
  41. SufiSoul
    Member

    I think pointing to Individual Islamic concepts will make you confused as most of the members over here are..

    The fact is that its never possible to know OR over come the realities of this universe.So what to do for confirmation of the realities..

    The best way is to start with available facts and figures if we want to know and get some information which is usefull..
    The available Information are thier to criticise and prove the authenticity...
    BUT once you proved the information right about Islam than thier is no way to accept all the information provided by ISLAM..It don;t need detailed knowledge of every single comment/concept of Islam.....

    In other words this should be the methodology for those who want and learn ISLAM as a religion.
    There is alot of research about ISLAM by many of the converted christians,jews,hindus and if some one like can get benefit to understand different concepts of ISLAM..

    I hope at the end,people will get convinced about ISLAM but only having true search for ISLAM whole heartedly.....The others will not....

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:16 #
  42. SufiSoul
    Member

    The concept of HELL is the same like defected cloth is sended back to re-process and finish..
    The same is the case here Proud ppl which never accepts GOD as one will be for indefinite period thier in the HELL...

    Why we should wonder about throwing ppl in HELL..???
    Do we not see the people burning in fire due to short circut????

    When this is allowed for this world how it can be banned afterwards????

    Look at the passengers of aircrash burns and injuries and thier body pieces here in this world..

    This all will be for short time for the person accepting GOD as one.The rest proud ones NOT accepting GOD's means challenging the existance of GOD will be forever in HELL....

    Why you are in doubt abt SOULS.???
    Look at the un-born baby.
    Initially thier is no movement thier but after some month when SOUL penetrates baby get life and start dancing thier sometimes...
    So this is the case will body will be re-organised THAT soul will again penetrate and the person will get ALIVE.....

    DAJJAL will only be the man at peak of some scientific knowledge and happenings BUT will be killed....

    In old times thier were some GREECE tribes highly knowledgeable...

    Once ISRAEL(angel) had a meeting with a relatively illiterate person of that tribe and asked him where is ISRAEL this time.....????
    That tribal man start calculation on the earth with a wooden pen.and replied"he is not in the skies".

    Lets check on the earth.He started again the calculation and replied"he is on the earth but among us not any where else...
    And replied again that i could not be ISRAEL but you are"""

    This was the knowledge of an illitrate person of that tribe but that generation was not allowed to move forward thier generation.....

    So its already decided that without capablity and positive motives no one is allowed to go beyond normal education which is neccessary for the life to easily go with..
    After that certain point no one is allowed and the,

    BISTER WILL BE GOL FOR THIS WORLD......CALLED QIYAMA...

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:40 #
  43. cogitoergosum
    Blocked

    SufiSoul,

    """The same is the case here Proud ppl which never accepts GOD as one will be for indefinite period thier in the HELL..."""

    >>>

    What if your god is infact a devil who will only reward those who follow their own mind instead of what other say or what religion instructs ! :)))

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 12:42 #
  44. toamin
    member

    what if is hypothetical lacking reality
    there is no end to "what if" scenarios...

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 14:58 #
  45. zia m
    Member

    Right, anybody can be wrong...

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Mar 2010 6:35 #
  46. Hell is the place where all the people who deny it will end up

    Posted 2 years ago on 19 Mar 2010 19:35 #
  47. zia m
    Member

    The concept of hell probably does not scare the Eskimos.
    Wonder why it is based on hot desert climate.

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Mar 2010 17:56 #
  48. Zia m
    I find it very interesting to study how different religions and their followers devolop a theology. They take certain ideas and devolop them over time. The idea of hell and Satan make a good study. Why heaven and hell has been tailored as something pleasing to someone living in a hot climate also makes for an interesting reading.

    Posted 2 years ago on 23 Mar 2010 19:41 #

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