PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

What is Liberal Extremist?

(94 posts)
  1. shirazi
    Member

    Smokers’ Corner: Pray tell
    Nadeem F. Paracha
    Yesterday

    Oh, my, that label again: ‘Liberal extremist.’ What on earth does it mean? Absolutely nothing. Great wordplay and deliciously idiosyncratic, but that’s about it.

    However, since the popular electronic media in Pakistan is usually about a rather nihilistic strain of whatever it considers to be news and analysis, this topsy-turvy label has become the catch-all term of a number of TV anchors, hosts and, ahem, analysts.

    So, then, what is a liberal extremist? How many Pakistanis do you know who advocate the abolition of faith, legalisation of cannabis, the creation of nude beaches, support gay marriages or… oh, okay, so this is not what you mean. Then what? If you guys who have suddenly become so fond of this phrase mean by it Pakistanis who emphasise reason over passion (especially in political and theological matters), or who find religion synonymous with humanitarianism, tolerance and compassion, or who like political parties that they support to retain a degree of secularism, or those who cherish the concept of social and religious pluralism and diversity, if these are the dreaded liberal extremists so many Pakistanis have suddenly started moaning about, then I pray for me to become one of the finest liberal extremists in this land of the pure.

    So, can one suggest that what passes as being plain old liberal elsewhere becomes liberal extremism in Pakistan? There is another innocent question I would like to ask of all those who have been swinging their fists by suggesting the following brilliant insight: ‘The problem in Pakistan is religious extremism and liberal extremism.’

    If so, then pray tell, dear sirs and madams, exactly how can one couple the two phrases in the same sentence? To begin with, one can safely suggest that those you call liberal extremists constitute an embarrassingly minute percentage compared to the glorious blooming and flowering we have seen of what are called religious extremists.

    Over and over again we have heard and seen the delightful things faith-based extremists advocate, preach, feel happy about and shower rose petals for, but what have the malicious liberal extremists to gloat and float about? I’ve heard arguments (and that’s about it) from the liberals in the following cases, but no liberal extremist distributed sweetmeat when Dr Aafia was convicted; never saw this extremist chant ‘yea, baby, let’s have more,’ when the news of a drone attack breaks; never seen one claiming that such or such person should be killed just because he or she disagreed with the liberal extremist. Sure he or she may have a sympathetic argument about what their counterparts may consider to be treason, sacrilege, etc., but that’s it.

    Kindly stop using this term, liberal extremists, as if it was an indigenous made-in-Pakistan media masterstroke. The term first began being used in the US during the 1970s. It was coined by some ultra-conservative Republican politicians and Christian evangelists against certain mainstream American newspapers, TV channels and filmmaking circles. These guys from that country’s far right in politics and religion thought that the American media and Hollywood were brimming with atheists, agnostics and liberals who were soft on the Soviet Union (mostly because the media was opposing the war in Vietnam).

    It was a lunatic fringe whom the then liberal American media suspected of having extreme political and religious views, and this fringe retaliated (in typical knee-jerk fashion), by calling their detractors as liberal extremists. This term was again used during the conservative Reagan years in the 1980s against mainstream media outlets who were opposing his overtly laissez faire economic policies and his arming of the paid mercenaries to topple the revolutionary leftist regime in Nicaragua.

    By the end of the Cold War (1990), the liberal extremist tag was hung around social and environmentalist groups that began agitating against large multinational corporations and ‘globalisation.’ The media in this respect was finally let off the hook and the reason was simple. With the arrival of such monsters like FOX-News and SkyNews, things in this respect were turned on their heads when it was the media that began adopting this term for detractors of corporate capitalism and the new millennium’s ‘neo-con’ polices.

    In Pakistan it was the military dictatorship of General Musharraf who first used this term. In many of his apologetic speeches he defended his (albeit half-baked) actions against extremist religious organisations by adopting the old 1970s American ultra-conservatives’ mantra of being against both extremes (religious and liberal). However, the irony was that genuine liberalism (that the American conservatives used to call liberal extremism in the US) was almost non-existent in Pakistan.

    Right-wing apologists of faith-based extremism now found in abundance in the FOX-News like environment in Pakistan’s electronic media have simply picked up where Musharraf had left: Blame the large-scale presence of both state sponsored and populist, civilian extremism in the country on the handful of vocal liberals by calling them liberal extremists. Of course, intoxicated on the delusion that they have discovered a perfect explanation to defend their sheepish defence of violence-prone extremism, they conveniently forget it is not liberal extremists blowing themselves up in public places or showering rose petals on killers.

    http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/23/smokers%E2%80%99-corner-pray-tell.html

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 3:53 #
  2. Paracha (and Co. <wink><wink>) should recite in front of the magic mirror:

    Mirror, Mirror, On the Wall
    Who's the Liberal Extremist Most of All...

    :-P

    "genuine liberalism (that the American conservatives used to call liberal extremism in the US) was almost non-existent in Pakistan."
    Funny guy Paracha....

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 4:22 #
  3. There is a fervent attempt by certain elements in our sociopolitical arena to polarize us.

    We don't have a political spectrum in Pakistan, we have a Paracha scale numbered from 1 to 10, 1 being Nadeem Paracha and 10 being Fareed Paracha and 5 represents ordinary Pakistani who is interested in neither of their BS idealogy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 4:29 #
  4. Fazooli
    Member

    NFP himself is liberal extremist; he cannot tolerate anything related to Islam & is always lambasting practicing Muslims.

    "How many Pakistanis do you know who advocate the abolition of faith, legalisation of cannabis, the creation of nude beaches, support **** marriages.."

    NFP and people like him will advocate all this. It is just a matter of time. First they are working on the basics:
    * abolition of faith from Muslims' collective life
    * legalization of alcohol
    etc

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 5:56 #
  5. quaidkamazaar
    Member

    lol you guys have completely missed the point of this article!

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 6:11 #
  6. toamin
    member

    ‘Liberal extremist.’ What on earth does it mean?

    it means people like paracha.. lolzz..

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 6:28 #
  7. he he he
    liberal hay wohh jo har baat se disagree karay.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 6:37 #
  8. sasherwani
    Members

    Im not a fan of Paracha but it's interesting to see that noone actually got the point of his article. Infact most missed it absolutely completely :)

    Good article and it made me think..what exactly is a liberal extremist? :D

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 7:47 #
  9. toamin
    member

    perhaps most didn't even care to read this beyond his name ;-))

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 8:00 #
  10. sasherwani
    Members

    @ salam,

    Most actually did. Many missed the point.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 8:13 #
  11. toamin
    member

    cool.. i am impressed to see that you actually picked up paracha's point.. shabaash :)

    you are a smart guy :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 8:18 #
  12. sasherwani
    Members

    @ salam,

    I would love to see some relevant comments from you. Saying "i was wrong" is too big of a statement for a mulla's ego? :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 8:49 #
  13. mujhay bhi samjha do na .
    kon hota hay liberal extremist?

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 8:51 #
  14. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Its high time Muslims started writing their own pieces, with "daleel" (in urdu), rather than "consistently" being "forced" to "excersize" "defense" of their beliefs by "intellectually belligerent" so-called "liberals" like Mr. Nadeem F Paracha.

    Unfortunately, my analysis of this article will be lengthy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 8:56 #
  15. toamin
    member

    lolzz @ego..

    sherwani, i am just happy for you to see that you followed paracha and picked up his point while most of us missed it :)

    judgement was made by you.. i am only congratulating you ;)

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 10:15 #
  16. gv
    Member

    @shirazi

    While I agree in most part with what NFP is saying - he fails to address the real issue here.

    Liberal 'extremists' are those people who have zero empathy with the masses of this nation.

    They are so wrapped up in their (usually) western well to do lifestyles that they cannot even begin to relate to our traditional culture, history etc.

    These people can be as offensive (and inflammatory) as any rabidly rigid cleric.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 10:19 #
  17. wantinsaf
    Member

    Liberal extremism is when u start labelling people inclined towards Islam as Talibans.This form of extremism is as dangerous as Talibanization.Liberal extremists are those who prefer American interests over Pakistan.Liberalism extremism leads to a society which strives for money making and night clubbing.You become liberal extremist when you fail to tolerate anyone talking about Islam and start compaign against those who are inclined towards Islam.

    This extremism leads to the mentality that one should not help any Muslims suffering any form of adversaries particulary from the hands of Non Muslims.Liberals are just money and sex hungry people.

    There are three types of Muslims:Momen,Muslim and Munafiq.There is nothing such as liberal in Islam.

    The founder of liberal said "Liberation of women liberated the men".This is where liberalism starts and this is where it ends.Liberalism is all about shunning religion and in pakistani it is shunning Islam.Which liberal did we ever see studying Quran and doing researhc on that?Liberals like Rehman Malik can not recite Surah Ikhlas.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 10:54 #
  18. @wantinsaf

    During his cricket days Imran Khan was a liberal and now he has become conservative and supporter of Taliban mafia.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 10:57 #
  19. @bitterlies
    What is Liberal Extremist? What better example than you yourself? :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 11:01 #
  20. @wantinsaf
    Nicely put...except for the last line ("Liberals like Rehman Malik can not recite Surah Ikhlas") Now most liberal extremists who can recite Surah Ikhlas would say "See I am not one!" ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 11:04 #
  21. gv
    Member

    @wantinsaf.

    The universally accepted defintion of a political liberal - is someone who espouses the concept of individual liberty and equality for all. I.e. no one group has the right to enforce their religious/political belief system over others and equal treatment under the state's legal code should be the right of every individual in the state.

    I don't think that is incompatible with Islamic Values.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 11:22 #
  22. @lota

    I criticized Imran for being taliban supporter NOT you! In the past IK was a liberal extremist with girlfriends left right and centre. No other player had such a luxury except Imran where many of his girlfriends stayed with Imran's in his hotel room.

    Pakistani society is facing an enormous problem of growing extremism and you (lota) are part of this problem like tiny supporters of murderer Mumtaz Qadri. Pakistan is the only country where murderers are glorified and showered with rose petal.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 11:23 #
  23. shirazi
    Member

    Liberal Extremists is the term coined to counter religious extremists. I don't mind either extreme as long as they are non-violent.

    Few of the traits highlighted about liberal extremists by our 'right' are:

    1. Pro American/west
    2. Label every religious person pro-Talibans
    3. Their world revolves around material progress

    Let's look into them one by one:

    With the exception of few in religious right who doesn't want to work with Americans/west? Kiyani, Zardari, Gillani, Nawaz Sahrif, Imran Khan, Fazal ur Rehman everyone wants to work with west. JI and Hameed Gul that comes up with most anti-American rhetoric worked very closely with Americans in 80's. So if this is what defines liberal extremist then who in Pakistan is not liberal extremist?

    Tableegis are not labelled as pro-Talibans. Everyone who tries to defend violence in the name of religion is labelled as Taliban as that is essentially what they are doing.

    People don't care about NFC award, 18th amendment, Swat operation. Their only concern is inflation and employment. These are material factors that are looked upon globally. It's wrong to label certain group of people following this economic progress mantra.

    NFP very aptly argued in our society we do not have extremism on the liberal side, at least not yet. These terms are thrown in public debate by those who want to down play and to some extent justify violence in the name of religion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 13:55 #
  24. gv
    Member

    @shirazi

    You can't use our leaders as a benchmark of political values for the very obvious reason that they are all bent.

    1) In the modern world as long we wish to participate and engage with the outside world we need to deal with the US and its allies. I don't think that is the issue. There is a pro-western segment which is not willing to approach Intl Relations from our point of view. i.e. Instead of securing our long term economic-political interests they appear to be supporting US/western long term economic political interests in return for short term economic-poiltical gain

    2) your point re: tableeghi not taliban is unclear

    3) The point again is not that economic progress or social advancement is bad. The point is that the people who belong to this socially mobile upward moving class tend to be oblivous to the plight of the majority

    ps. i consider myself a liberal - im just pointing out some of the uglier aspects of the liberal segment of pakistan society

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 14:27 #
  25. aftab arif
    Member

    Liberal extremist to me are people who don't care about killing civilians when trying to achieve a Military objective.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 14:35 #
  26. liberal extremist mindset or Liberal extremist are those people who advocate the tolerence, existence and acceptance of any other opinion EXCEPT ISLAM OR ISLAMIC OPINION.

    Even if they are so called SECULAR and accept the presence of any religion they donot and canot stomach the presence os Islam. They despise islam and anything and everything islamic. And for Pakistani liberal extremist if they could, they would change their names from Nadeem to Noddy and Fareed to Freidric or Freddy. :-P

    Need I say more :-P

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 15:03 #
  27. gv
    Member

    @fj

    that is a ridiculous statement and not true at all.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 15:09 #
  28. @ gv

    what more can I say than that "Truth hurts and it really hurts when it hits the bulls eye".

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 15:15 #
  29. wantinsaf
    Member

    @gv
    You won't be a liberal if you start opposing;
    1-America's policies regarding Pakistan and Afghanistan
    2-Drone attacks which voilate the soverienty of this poor land.
    4-Night clubs
    5-Obscenity
    5-veena malik's act in Big boss4(that too has become a criteria now)
    And the list goes one.
    And even then you say liberalism is compatible with Islam.You can fool yourself but not the people who have got stronger faith.
    Liberal is as its founder said "Liberation of women liberated the men".Liberal wanted to legitimize the sin like consensual sex and night clubbing.This is where liberalism starts and this is where it ends.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:03 #
  30. gv
    Member

    @wantinsaf.

    so pray tell who is this founder of liberalism that you are quoting so liberally..

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:08 #
  31. wantinsaf
    Member

    @shirazi

    You desperately tried to defend liberalism with your pathetic calcualtion and understanding of the issues.

    1-Pro America:Liberal can be a pro America but not a true Pakistani and Muslim.Imran is a clear example of true Pakistani who oppose America when it should be.We don't to be servant of USA(this is what a liberal wants) and we don't want to be their enemy unnecessarily but would never ever bow to them.
    Zardari,Nawaz and Fazal all of them are self proclaimed liberals in front of USA and none of them can be termed as representative of Islam and even Pakistan.
    2-Pro Taliban:
    Liberal ran a compaign against many great Muslims and Pakistanis like Imran khan and Zaker Nayek and termed them as pro Taliban.
    when did they justify any suicide bombing?They just explained the phenomena but those anti Islam don't want to pay any head to root causes of this mess.After ten yars,what we have seen is only the increase in suicide bombing.
    3-Material Benefits:
    Liberals in Pakistan while defending USA clealry enlightens us with the facts and figure American has been spending on us.But this money is only going into the hands of liberals like Musharaf who after destroying Pakistan have left us.

    Followings are the definition to liberalism in Pakistan;
    You won't be a liberal if you start opposing;
    1-America's policies regarding Pakistan and Afghanistan
    2-Drone attacks which voilate the soverienty of this poor land.
    4-Night clubs
    5-Obscenity
    5-veena malik's act in Big boss4(that too has become a criteria now)
    And the list goes one.
    And even then you say liberalism is compatible with Islam.You can fool yourself but not the people who have got stronger faith.
    Liberal is as its founder said "Liberation of women liberated the men".Liberal wanted to legitimize the sin like consensual sex and night clubbing.This is where liberalism starts and this is where it ends.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:13 #
  32. shirazi
    Member

    @gv

    It was suggested that LE label everyone who talks about religion as Talibans and I said if that is the case why Tableegis are not labelled as Talibans? In my view people are labelled pro-Taliban or promoting Talibanization when they defend/justify violence in the name of religion. I hope it clears up a bit.

    Why few in Pakistan 'd prefer American interest over Pakistan's interest? Even if they do why 'd you label them as LE? When G-8 or G-20 deals with have-nots irrespective of their religion they use their economic muscle through global institutions like IMF and World bank to exploit subjects, the 3rd world. That doesn't mean 3rd world want to be exploited. And that is entirely different debate.

    You also suggested their is a disconnect between upward moving middle class and those who are lagging behind. There might be a disconnect, can't say for sure. I agree there is one between ruling elite and others but I am not sure if working middle class won't feel the plight of lower middle class. To suggest that this upward moving class is LE is a stretch. It's like everything you don't like is liberal extremism.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:14 #
  33. shirazi
    Member

    @wantinsaf

    Bahi defend is a second stage I am trying to define it first :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:15 #
  34. wantinsaf
    Member

    @gv
    You must have heard the name of John Locke.he is one of the founders of liberalism and this is what he said.

    You had better answer the point I raised above.
    Let me rephrase them;
    1-Can I be a liberal who is opposing Veena Malik's act in Big boss which is abolutely non sense and indecent?
    Veena Malik is surely a liberal but I am the critics of his act am not.Where does Islam stand on that?

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:27 #
  35. gv
    Member

    @wantinsaf

    like shirazi says you need to define a liberal first

    mine (and the univesral) definition as above is - is someone who espouses the concept of individual liberty and equality for all. I.e. no one group has the right to enforce their religious/political belief system over others and equal treatment under the state's legal code should be the right of every individual in the state. -

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:33 #
  36. shirazi
    Member

    @wantinsaf

    I am amused you brand us as LE but give a clean slate to your leader who not only spent very colorful life in west but is also raising his kids in the heart of Europe with his ex-Jewish wife who is enjoying the beeches that we all are blamed of dreaming.

    http://www.zimbio.com/Jemima+Khan/articles/16/Jemima+Khan+Bikini+Exposing+lot

    http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/Hugh+Grant-4967.html

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:40 #
  37. gv
    Member

    @shirazi

    Sorry i take that back

    1) i know a bunch of people who consider the tableeghis as bad as the taliban - i.e. 'all a bunch of mad fundos'

    2) i am referring to the westernised elite in this case who consider themselves liberal

    3) i apologise for not being clear i mean the economic elite but (imo) most of the economic elite who lack empathy tend to be upward moving i.e. new money

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:44 #
  38. wantinsaf
    Member

    @gv

    I have done an extensive research on the topic so I don't need to look back as its definition and ignore what it really is.
    What do you think of word 'Taliban'?Is it a bad term?When it comes to meaning it too is a nice term.

    Little knwoledge is always dangerous and it always leads to destruction.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:45 #
  39. gv
    Member

    @wantisaf

    fyi - Imran Khan would be considered a political liberal by an objective observer in fact if you use the definition provided above - im pretty sure he'd agree

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:45 #
  40. gv
    Member

    @wantisaf

    "Little knwoledge is always dangerous and it always leads to destruction."

    i totally agree - though i fear this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    fyi : John Locke is not the founder of liberalism he is a political philosopher who belongs to teh liberal school

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:46 #
  41. wantinsaf
    Member

    @shirazi

    You did not answer the points I raised.I knew it no so called liberal has got answer to these questions.
    I am not concerned about what Jemima Khan has been doing.I am concerned about what Pakistan has been going through and whta efforts my leader has been putting through.
    I have been seeing Imran doing the best work for both Pakistan and Islam.And unlike any liberal,he did not bring any shame to us,both pakistanis and Muslims.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:49 #
  42. wantinsaf
    Member

    @gv

    Imran's agenda is not liberalism or leftist or rightist.He clearly says I don't own these imported terms.
    He sees himself whether he is a good Pakistani or Muslim or not.This is what we Pakistanis need to be concerned.

    You keep these imported terms to yourself,we don't need it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 16:53 #
  43. shirazi
    Member

    @wantinsaf

    I also do not are much about what Jemima is doing or how kids of your leader are being raised. Let's not narrow down the discussion to if Imran is liberal or not. I just brought him in because you labelled every leader LE except Imran Khan.

    Now if you label Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif as liberal extremist what weight the term Liberal Extremist would carry. They are trying their best to tell west they are liberal enough and you are saying they are liberal extremists?

    I am not sure which point you want me to specifically answer. I didn't see Big Boss but after watching her interview with Kamran Shahid in Front Line I watched some clips on you tube. I agree with her she didn't cross any barrier that is not crossed by Lollywood actresses. If our sports, business, civil and political community can interact with counterparts in India why can't entertainment industry within the confines that are already established.

    I don't drone or pro-American attitude as a gauge to define liberal extremism as you would hardly see anyone defending two in Pakistan.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 17:26 #
  44. shafiq12
    member

    Extreme liberals are dirty as rotten eggs.

    اٹھا کر پھينک دو باہر گلي ميں
    نئي تہذيب کے انڈے ہيں گندے

    Throw them out in the alley
    The new civilization’s eggs are rotten

    الکشن، ممبري، کونسل، صدارت
    بنائے خوب آزادي نے پھندے

    Election, membership, council, presidency
    The nooses of independence are very strange
    مياں نجار بھي چھيلے گئے ساتھ
    نہايت تيز ہيں يورپ کے رندے

    The carpenter has also been pared
    The Europe’s planes are very sharp

    ps. i consider myself a liberal

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 18:03 #
  45. shirazi
    Member

    @SS

    It good to know you are liberal but not extremist :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 19:09 #
  46. quaidkamazaar
    Member

    I dont think we have any extreme liberals in Pakistan. Visit some countries in Europe and then you will get an idea what extreme liberal is. hardly anyone has the guts to call a bearded man terrorist in Pakistan, so there is no real extreme liberalism that has a voice.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jan 2011 23:59 #
  47. toamin
    member

    based on my little experience I think FJ's definition above is spot on!

    liberal extremist mindset or Liberal extremist are those people who advocate the tolerence, existence and acceptance of any other opinion EXCEPT ISLAM OR ISLAMIC OPINION.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jan 2011 5:42 #
  48. @Salam
    Spot on, indeed! :)

    BTW: Here is an illustration... :-P
    Veena Malik becomes hero for Pakistani liberals

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jan 2011 7:45 #
  49. shafiq12
    member

    Shirazi

    @SS

    It good to know you are liberal but not extremist :)

    I don't consider myself liberal. It's Mr Gv 's quote

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jan 2011 7:56 #
  50. gv
    Member

    Come on Nota

    you're just pandering to the masses. Even you consider yourself a political liberal as per the dictionary defintion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jan 2011 9:03 #

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