What should we teach our children in school/s?

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What should we teach our children in school/s?

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stingingnettle
Member

Fundamental to any to any country's progress is its education system. Pakistan has, from what I can gather, five different types of schools. Government schools, semi-Government schools, private schools, school controlled by religious organisations and last but not the least school run by the military. Please feel to add any other type that I may have missed.

My question is about both types of schools and what is taught in these schools. My personal view is that the most important aspects in any school system are what is taught and how its taught.

Do you think the current systems works well? Does it need tweaking? Or do we need to start from scratch again?

The children of Pakistan deserve a system or systems that empower them and bring out the best in them. How do we make it happen? Is there hope for our children?

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 21:35 #
Rohail Taqi
Member

A lot can be said about what should we teach. But there is something that we definitely should not teach.

Our nation has got into a particular type mindset where we forcefully suppress the idea of children asking questions. We do not like when a child gets into a direct conversation with a teacher. Some how our teachers get angry or even hysterical when children gets into counter questioning.

We like to see teachers being treated like gods by students and this kind of training led to an inferior performance and lack of creativity in Pakistanis students later in their life in almost every field.

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 21:47 #
stingingnettle
Member

Rohail Taqi

Thank you for your very useful and insightful comments;

Do you think teachers in Pakistan fear questions because they don't know the answers or is there a different reason?

My view is the best thing a teacher can teach his students is to ask good questions. The best form of teaching involves questioning. Proper title for this is perhaps Socratic reasoning.

You last paragraph is hugely disheartening but not far from the truth. Without critical thinking we produce second rate followers and no leaders.

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 21:53 #
Rohail Taqi
Member

Well its a little bit of both. Since majority of teachers are not trained to handle the psychology of a kid or a teenager and also they seriously lack the knowledge of the subject therefore we may conclude that they avoid questioning.

Things like having a good library, debate and sports competitions between different schools, having clubs would certainly help but I am afraid this would not be happening any time in near future.

Also we need to change the way we see weaker people. For example house maids (masian) chukidars, malis etc. are our employees not slaves or servants, just like somebody employed us. This social behavior of mistreating the weaker propagate in our schools, such that the children are considered mostly worthless unable to contribute except for the tuition their parents pay.

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 22:16 #
expakistani
Member

from pre k to 5th grad...
1: how to be a good human...
2: Teach them to love their mohala, city, soba and country
3: Teach them how to make logic
4: Teach them 2-3 languages
5: Teach them Math science and history

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 22:36 #
stingingnettle
Member

Rohail Taqi

I could not agree more with your comments in the last paragraph. I would just add that not many seem to think that employing a little boy or a little girl as a servant (paying them little or nothing) is odd and unacceptable. Children belong to schools and there are no ifs or buts about it. The strange fact is that many of the people who exploit child labour can actually be quite educated themselves and often have their own children in full time education. So the mind boggles.

Class size matters in addition to the lack of teacher knowledge. In a class of 60, you couldn't answer questions even if you knew the answers. Poor teaching - Poor learning - poor teaching. It is a vicious cycle.

Do you think investment of a lot more money on our education systems, schools and teachers might help? Or are we opening the flood gates of more corruption?

I feel a huge sense of frustration that our children; those that go to Government schools, are hugely let down by the teachers that are meant to inspire them. The people who send their children to these school seem to think that it is fated this way; and this I find outrageous. Why this helplessness?

The last point I would like to make is; learning by rote is the poison that we have all had to drink. Everyone criticises it but no one does anything about it. Odd, I say.

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 22:38 #
stingingnettle
Member

expakistani;

I would like to add teaching by doing to your list.

I once asked a teacher how she teaches environmental cleanliness to her students, she replied, 'we tell them about it.'

To which I simply said, all along the periphery of your school their is filth piled up, why don't you take them out to show it and ask the students their ideas about cleaning it up and then doing it.

Critical thinking is very important in addition to logic.

And yes history; there lies the big problem. Have you seen a history book from primary or early secondary schools recently? It looks like a 100 monkeys with typewriters would have done a better job. History teaching is about providing sources to the students so that can make up their own mind. Do you think our 'leaders' would want that?

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 22:48 #
bsobaid
Member

We should teach and train them to become confident, intelligent and at secondary level provide them with some skill, such as basic farming, or ironsmith or crafts etc.

They dont necessarily need to gain knowledge in the basic education, instead as i said, intelligence and confidence are the most important qualities they should gain.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 0:21 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Need to revamp the entire educational system

http://www.albalagh.net/education/education2.shtml

"In the U.S. and Europe, the schools were started by the church. Later as forces of capitalism overtook them, they molded them into their image. Moral training was a casualty of that takeover. But capitalism and their political economy did need people trained to work under these systems. So citizenship training was retained as an important, though diminishing, component of the curriculum--- a religion-free subset of the moral training it displaced. Whatever civility we see here is largely a result of that leftover component. The imported versions in the Muslim countries, though, had even that component filtered out. And the results are visible.

We can solve our problem once we realize our mistakes. The first purpose of our education system must be to produce qualified citizens and leaders for the Islamic society. Tarbiya, real Islamic moral training, must be an integral part of it. This must be the soul of our education, not a ceremonial husk. All plans for improving our education will be totally useless unless they are based on a full understanding of this key fact. This requires revamping our curricula, rewriting our textbooks, retraining our teachers, and realizing that we must do all this ourselves. We do have a rich history of doing it. Are we finally willing to turn to our own in-house treasures to redo education the way it should always have been?"

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 4:07 #
sultanalikhan
Member

@StingingNettle.......thank you for starting such a valuable and worthy thread, amid all gloom and doom....your viewpoint that fundamental to any country's progress is education system makes lots of sense. You correctly pointed out that the various education systems that exist in Pakistan are also causing confusion among students and parents alike---for majority doesn't know which system would be good for its children......

Then there is the need of educating teachers themselves who are supposedly imparting knowledge to students...First we must put a system in place where we could train our teachers on modern techniques, tools and methods that lead to (as you put it) "Critical Thinking"...Needless to say without first training our teachers we have little hope of success...

I must say I was most impressed by ROHAIL TAQI's responses as he put his finger on the right button where the core of problem lies...SUPPRESSING STUDENTS NOT TO ASK QUESTIONS FROM TEACHERS BUT LISTEN TO THEM AND THEN FOLLOW WHATEVER BEING PASSED ON..something on those lines...we have to be wise enough to differentiate between INSOLENT and INQUISITIVE mind and must encourage students to ask questions even if those questions embark upon a pinch of insolence....wondering minds should not be suppressed but made expressive...

In my humble view unless we establish an education system wherein the mighty and powerful elite of our country feels comfortable sending its children, there is little hope that our education will ever take off, let alone progress...

Last but not the least, I have read Abdul Rahman's post with due attention and must confess that what he has written holds water....he is basically suggesting uprooting of an entire system and putting in a totally new one that subscribes to our moral/cultural/religious/social values and sentiments.....Abdul Rahman correctly pointed out that we have a rich vein of history and culture, and are gifted enough to establish and run a homegrown indigenous education system that not only imparts knowledge to students how to make their careers but also instills human values, builds character and creates leaders for the Islamic society....

I know Abdul Rahman's assertion will raise many eyebrows but how can we reject an idea which had not been attempted?

I am all for the education system that produces good citizens, god fearing humans, leaders and thinkers.....and not the education system that only produces fodder for rich men's corporations!!!

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 6:22 #
stingingnettle
Member

Thank you Abdul Rehman and SultanAliKhan for your meaningful and thought-provoking comments;

Abdul Rehman;

"We can solve our problem once we realize our mistakes"

This is a hugely important and valuable insight. We cannot afford to continue stumbling on the same stone over and over again. Sadly most people I come across seem be quite aware about the problems their children face in their schooling but claim to be unable to do anything about it. So the generation we expect to learn from their mistakes is not trained to do so or unwilling to do so.

You also comment;

"The first purpose of our education system must be to produce qualified citizens and leaders for the Islamic society."

I would only edit 'for the Islamic society' to just "society." Religious education does not need to be excluded from the curriculum but it has to be education about other religions too. There is no such thing as 'Islamic' society, there are a hundred hues of Islam and there lies the problem. The failure of the current model is evident and you and I agree on that, it's the fix that must involve an inclusive approach.

In the golden age of muslims when they lead the world in mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery and navigation, what was noteworthy was that they believe acquisition of 'ilm' was their 'fard'. Everyone was welcomed to teach and learn from each other irrespective of what religion they belonged to. I agree with you, we must do it ourselves and mostly using indigenous resources but what is important is that we learn from current best practices anywhere in the world. This what the Japanese did in the late nineteenth century and the Isrealis in the mid twentieth century.

Whatever curriculum we adopt it must be inclusive and must encourage our young students to ask genuine questions; not rhetorical ones which is the norm at the moment. Questions that will take us out of our comfort zone.

SultanAliKhan

You are right, Rohail Taqi has hit the nail on the head.

I think our teachers are pretty insecure and to them most questions are 'insolent' as you put it. I am forever amazed by the gift of wonderful questioning young people have. Teachers are perhaps too pre-occupied like rest of Pakistan, with 'azaab e zees't' eg load shedding, runaway inflation, lawlessness, the 'insolence of office', and corruption that they can be forgiven for not pondering too deeply when they are asked insightful questions during lessons.

As most people have said, it is about re-training or training teachers but we must also understand it is also about mindset. A person that begins by believing they are right will only pay attention to evidence to confirm this and will ignore a wealth of evidence pointing in another direction.

To me your following comment is hugely defining and perhaps the first step towards a solution;

"In my humble view unless we establish an education system wherein the mighty and powerful elite of our country feels comfortable sending its children, there is little hope that our education will ever take off, let alone progress..."

The million dollar question is; how do we do this? One way to achieve this is to have a National Curriculum so that everyone has to dip in the same pond but their methods can be different. The National Curriculum would prove to be the holy Grail of Pakistan education. An inclusive, enlightened curriculum that will be truly eclectic.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 10:38 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

In the generation of our parents, the most learned people joined the profession of teaching. In our generation, not the most competent but still competent people joined the profession of teaching. In this generation, mostly the people who find jobs nowhere else, they join the profession of teaching reluctantly.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 11:18 #
scandinavian
Member

@stingingnettle

In a free society we cannot stop anyone from running private schools. Personally I don't mind that either, but what is essential is that they follow the same minimum standard of curriculum. Then people can make all the different types of schools they want - provided they obey the law, f.ex. no teaching of hatred etc.

"Do you think the current systems works well?"

No, it doesn't work well - in spite of we had the same curriculum. We need to get away from the ratta system and implement something between the system in Scandinavian schools and the ratta system. It is essential to have a good a good memory just like it is essential to have a good understanding of what is studied, so a mixture of both would be good!

Personally I also favor translation of as many books from English to Urdu as possible - not because people should not learn English, but because students will be better to understand in their own language.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 11:55 #
stingingnettle
Member

Hussain Farooqui

Very sadly, you are probably right.

I remember watching a programme on PTV many years ago about career counselling. The resident expert was trying to find a suitable career for a young adult. After going through a string of suggestions for a career, which all proved inappropriate (because of inadequate qualification and right qualities); in the end the expert triumphantly said,'Well in that case, why don't you become a teacher?'

My TV nearly had a close encounter of a terminal kind.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 11:58 #
scandinavian
Member

@HF

Over a longer period of time I see the same development for our religious people.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 12:02 #
siddiqi73
Member

This is what would be the curriculum like in a Stalinist future:

* Imran Khan is Pious
* Imran Khan is righteous
* Imran Khan is our beloved leader
* Imran Khan is clean and incorruptible leader

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 12:19 #
stingingnettle
Member

Scandinavian; thanks for your useful comments

You write;

"Personally I also favor translation of as many books from English to Urdu as possible - not because people should not learn English, but because students will be better to understand in their own language."

The language that I seem to hear on the streets and in the media cannot be called English or Urdu. The Pakistani obsession mixing English with our Urdu is both a sign of insecurity and something gone tragically wrong with our education. Speak Urdu or English, to borrow words from Hasan Nisar (out of context),'Jo bhee hoe, khalis hoe'. I am up for translating texts into Urdu, I think it is a good idea, my worry is that will we be able to overcome our inferiority complex viz a viz our national language?

The 'ratta' system aka the regurgitation system is a hindrance to critical thinking. We can't produce a gennie from a lamp, we need look seriously who writes exam papers and what kind of questions make it on to them. To achieve the right mix of memory and analysis will require some serious knocking of expert heads. I believe it can be done where there is a will.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 13:05 #
stingingnettle
Member

bsobaid; I thank you for your comments.

Would you not say that intelligence and confidence should be aided by modern techniques and methods?

I don't think Pakistan needs to more people in "farming, or ironsmith or crafts" but fewer people who are more efficient and productive. If you think of developed countries, only 5% farmers are over producing (eg UK, Germany and USA) as a result of deploying modern methods and machines. Similarly industrial production in China provides for most of our planet. It's not about only carrying on with basic skills, it's about stretching yourself and learning new and sophisticated methods. We should have more faith in our young people especially rural ones; in their ability to learn and apply the complex techniques with 'intelligence and confidence.'

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 13:21 #
scandinavian
Member

In the future we also need to ensure that we don't lack behind in any subject. We need to compare our students - on all levels - with other students all over the world.

Btw: In the present situation it doesn't make sense to compare our students with other nations with focus on education. When there is no focus on education this will be waste of money of we did. First we need to raise the budget significantly - in fact declare emergency on education as proposed by PTI, then after a while we can start comparing our students with other students from around the world.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 13:51 #
Dusky
Member

@stingingnettle: Thanks for coming-up with a thought provoking topic for a change!!

On the topic, What we teach at school starts with what our vision is as a nation. We have so many layers of school systems and they all are leading us in different directions. Curriculum for each school/system is based on their vision of the world. Graduates from each system varies in capabilities. Basically, what we have is a class driven system with an evident purpose of not to provide level playing field for all.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 16:11 #
stingingnettle
Member

Dusky I take your point.

You are right, the current system is too confusing and too layered.

Do you think a National Curriculum will solve the problem? That is everyone dips into the same curriculum but how they get to the end of it, is the choice of school or exam board. This would mean that at matriculation and at HSSC level we should have the assurance that all our youth have a comparable baseline competence.

So could we ever have such a curriculum? Perhaps we can trust our educationists to provide us with the vision you talk about.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 16:18 #
Dusky
Member

"So could we ever have such a curriculum? Perhaps we can trust our educationists to provide us with the vision you talk about."

Even if we get to a point of same "curriculum" for all, playing field would not be equal. On mass level a "Peela" school kid can not compete with "convent/cantonment" school kid.

Second point, for that educators need to have some sort of vision. As HF nicely put, least achiever of the society are on the driving seat to direct the future generations. In such situation I don't have any trust on educators to direct.

What I would like to see is some sort of basis education common to all at early stage. Either one going to madarsa or school or any other institution, books of social sciences, religion and history should be the same. We should have some sort of "oneness" among us. Right now we have extremes, a madarsa graduate is up in arms against any thing coming from the modern world and vise versa, same is translating in our society at mass level.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 19:00 #
LifeH2O
Member

An important part of this question is that 'In which Language we should teach, English or Urdu (or now Chinese)?'

Language does not come alone, it comes with its culture too. We should be clear about that.

The children getting education from private English schools are hell different in everything from children of government schools. They are the one producing 'aliens' (they are different).
We need to have same education system, text books etc all over the country.

After that we need some modern education system in which each child is free to decide and choose a field of interest and study it.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 19:00 #
stingingnettle
Member

Dusky; Thanks for you useful input

I agree with your suggestion that delivering a National Curriculum in a fair manner is perhaps impossible given the huge disparity within school systems. Public or private, children who attend these school are the same in a fundamental sense. The question is about what learning opportunities they get along the way. Effective delivery of curriculum depends on class size and the competence of the teacher. All schools cannot be the same and must not be the same. What needs to happen within the framework of a National Curriculum is that bright students from a certain background or class must not be condemned to attend second rate schools by default. It's about equal opportunity rather than identical standards in all school which is completely impossible. In short the best educational opportunities must not entirely be a commodity which can just be bought.

Within the framework of a National Curriculum, you have different publisher producing books for various examining boards. It is very very important that we allow a host of publishers to produce books and learning experiences to keep publishing highly competitive and where only the best books grace the bags of our school children.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 20:01 #
stingingnettle
Member

LifeH2O

"The children getting education from private English schools are hell different in everything from children of government schools. They are the one producing 'aliens' (they are different)."

I just like to say that the children are the same but they have had different opportunities and learning experiences along the way.

You can buy a grade but mostly you can't buy an education.

The children coming out of private English school are not necessarily better educated. The fact that they are unable to speak either English or Urdu correctly is a proof of that. The advantage they may have is possibly smaller class size. Private schools (of which we have hundreds of thousands) in a lot of instances are status symbols as opposed to places where a fine, all-round education is imparted on students. We need to have schools where our brightest stars can go irrespective of whether they are from poor families or rich, if you like a kind of state grammar school system.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 20:52 #
bsobaid
Member

@sting, these advanced techniques and technology are taught at post-secondary level and majority of our population and even western population dont reach post-secondary level. This is why I say at a primary level, students should be trained to become intelligent and confident and be provided some skills so they can survive and excel even without post-secondary level education.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 21:59 #
LifeH2O
Member

Isn't it those english schools which are creating 'hate pakistan' mindset -this country has nothing good, it has nothing to be praised-

They are different and they are taught/trained to feel that difference both in their homes and schools. It teases me when I see them talking to each other in English, English school girls wearing neckers and boys wearing full dress, they read oxford or other foreign books only.
I am not against the language, I am against the other things that it comes with.

Anyway, If you are teaching at school you should try your best creating interest of that subject in students. Teach it in a way that they study addictively.
For practical subjects, best thing is to give them a task related to what you are going to teach them next.
I never liked theory (I still don't) no idea about that.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 22:00 #
stingingnettle
Member

bsobaid

Yes, I accept what you are saying is correct. Most advanced skills are taught at a higher level of education.

As I said, I whole-heartedly agree that our young primary learners should be 'confident' but my suggestion is that we must not lower the bar so that can have the pleasure of feeling intelligent. I guess I am talking about giving our young children ambition at a primary level and this can not happen if what we only do is teach them some 'basic skills.'

Ambition inspires people to grow and develop and aim high. We only need about 5% of our rural youth to be highly inspired and driven and to feel comfortable with using new technology and techniques. Users and inventors are often different people, and in Pakistan, we need both.

I accept not everyone can or should go to university. There are thousands of absolutely vital roles in society (that require the use of technology but not the invention of it) that do not require a university or even a high school certificate. One example; assembly mobile phones.

I thank you for your comments.

Posted 7 months ago on 17 Oct 2011 22:14 #
bsobaid
Member

Thanks sting.

Lack of confidence and intelligence is evident from our poor communication skills. I feel people on streets, school, college and even university student and our big political leaders fail to articulate their point in fewer words. If you notice carefully, you will see leaders like zardari, shareef, altaf and even imran khan conversation is comprised of long sentences with an extremely limited use of vocabulary. Religouos leaders are exception as they have mastered the skill with juma khutba.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 5:12 #
Rohail Taqi
Member

@bsobaid

Lol!! That is a subtle point. Religious leader are really masters of words. You are right, not only that they lack linguistic skill but as soon as somebody (anchors hardly ever do that) gets into real policy questions they resort to definitions of جمہوریت, their 'قربانی ' and, 'باسٹ تریسٹ سال'.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 7:55 #
stingingnettle
Member

LifeH2O

"Isn't it those english schools which are creating 'hate pakistan' mindset -this country has nothing good, it has nothing to be praised-"

I think it is we ourselves that are creating that mindset. The so called English medium schools are only pandering to parents' bizarre notion that somehow what matters most is the few heavily accented English phrases your child comes out with, especially in front of uncles, aunties and neighbours -- hugely superficial I say. The real purpose of why you children go to school is lost in the Broken English and Broken Urdu your child speaks -- and using my poetic license, I will call this new language BEBU. My point is that sadly we suffer from some kind of inferiority complex and therefore we are completely obsessed by what others think of us and our children. In short we worry more about the façade we put up as opposed to focussing on more meaningful stuff, and we therefore, end up producing BEBU babus.

It is impossible to caramel-coat all teaching, I think but you are right, it is important to capture the imaginations of our young learners.

Why didn't you and don't you still, like theory?

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 10:19 #
stingingnettle
Member

bsobaid

"I feel people on streets, school, college and even university student and our big political leaders fail to articulate their point in fewer words. "

I am sure a lot of people feel exactly the way you do. Hyperbole is a pressure release valve fitted in the heads of all people who do not know what they are talking about. A premium valve in fitted in almost all of our politicians and mullahs so I am not surprised when they cannot even say the simplest things clearly. The easiest thing to say would just be 'I don't know' rather waffling on and on and making a fool of yourself.

I think, the reason for this is mentality and language. We don't have a 'I don't know culture' and this a result of how we were taught in schools.

We actually have no idea how to listen, react and re-adjust to arguments that are contrary to our held views, often highly dogmatic. Our schools have never taught us to think critically about ourselves.

Rohail Taqi; I know exactly what you are talking about. Yes, sad but true.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 10:37 #
LifeH2O
Member

@stingingnettle
"Why didn't you and don't you still, like theory?"
Probably because it doesn't catch my interest, I prefer looking at working example than reading theory.
Infact it is all about interest, I can read a whole book only if it is interesting somehow.

One of my teacher use to teach magic tricks to small class children in return of their good work. But I am not in favor of that kind of inspiration, because students were interested in the trick not the subject.

Children are all full of curiosity, anyone teaching them should use that curiosity in best possible way to teach them anything.

I think that most of the good students who come out from usual government schools are just because they were taught by some really very good teachers.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 16:17 #
bsobaid
Member

This is true Sting and Rohail.

Infact Rohail, anything out of their usual script of "qurbani", "hamari badnaseebi", "pichlay baasath saal", "root cause" you will notice they start stammering with non-existent clarity.

On the other side, if you ever hear an intelligent person speaking, such as a scientist or an economist or a poet, their diction speaks for itself.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 16:22 #
stingingnettle
Member

LifeH2O

"Children are all full of curiosity, anyone teaching them should use that curiosity in best possible way to teach them anything."

You hit the nail on the head; children ask the most amazing questions, the important thing is for the teacher to have the competence, time and patience to answer them properly.

bsobaid;

"On the other side, if you ever hear an intelligent person speaking, such as a scientist or an economist or a poet, their diction speaks for itself."

Perhaps this is because they know what they are talking about but more importantly they are happy to say ,'I don't know the answer to that but I will try and find out for you.' Hence they don't need a pressure release valve.

Pakistani aab taleem ki nao ko siyasat ki mojoon kay saharae naheen choor saktay.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 20:09 #
bsobaid
Member

I agree sting with your pressure valve theory.

The thing is, intelligent person communication skills have much more clarity and smoothness even if he is talking about an irrelevant topic and at no time he is shy to confess his lack of understanding about a given topic.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 20:29 #
stingingnettle
Member

The problem I see with changing the the system is the teaching community;

I expect there to the mother of all resistance because very few of the old school teachers would want to change. Whilst I had some very earnest teachers myself, I can safely say I was inspired by only one or two. Most of my teachers had been doing the same thing over and over again for decades.

This leaves us with the young crop or the young people about to join the profession; perhaps they are a starting point. The important question is how do you get them on board?

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 20:59 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

This needs to happen ASAP when you want to impart real education. It has not happened since "independance". That means we are not indepandant..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/01/AR2011010101345.html

"There will be official training and on-site cultural education and an emphasis on sports, reading books and the Koran," the education minister, Hamid-Reza Haji-Babaei, said in May.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 13:10 #
toamin
member

We can not teach our children in Schools :)

We can only teach them when they are out of school!

Schools only serve partial function, major input comes from home & society!

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 13:12 #
bsobaid
Member

@Salam kee Azmat ko Salam!

Many Pakistans living in western countries say schools there transform children in no time, even if they maintain desi mahool in their homes.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 15:08 #
stingingnettle
Member

Thanks for you comments Salam;

Yes, you have a point. You are, I take it, not taking about academic subjects such as science and Maths etc but about 'tarbiyaat'.

Schools have some role in 'tarbiyaat' but I agree most of the work needs to be done by parents and home. This will lead to a huge problem and here is what it is;

To be a parent in any country in the world you need no qualifications but to drive a car or install an electrical socket etc you need qualifications. So the point is parents as we have them are parents for reason you and I know but not because they are qualified to be good parents.

How can you trust the 'tarbiyaat' to parents who in most cases have no idea about what being a good parent means (most only know what was passed down to them without much critical evaluation) ? Do you trust it to teachers who mostly have no idea about tarbiyaat or even taleem. So what is your answer to that?

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 15:09 #
ChangeIK
Blocked

My two cents:

1) Secular education - religious free eudcation, that is.

Religion should be taught in the home by parents, no business of it involving in schools, because it creates division and later on, extremism.

Ethics should be taught with references to all religous and sectarian contexts.

Freedom of thinking and rationality should be advocated. Nothing should be out of question. A person should have the right to ask - Is Islam the ture religion or not and indulge in a debate without fear of having his throat slit. A person should have the right to criticize any religion, any personality, any institution, any politician, any leader, any general, any political concept, any scientific concept, any thing under the sun!

2) Medium of instruction should be Urdu - the language understood and spoken by majority of Pakistan.

The purpose of education is learning, not importing another language, whatever it maybe. When we are learning, say, science, we are learning science - not using it to learn English. If learning science is then our purpose, we have to do this in the language we are most comfortable with.

This will root out the culture of youth who can't properly speak English, and can't properly write Urdu!

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 15:26 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

IK,

The society in the cradle of secularim- West is on brink of collapse. Family life is deteriorating at rapid pace due to decadent life style. Morality is non-existant. There are cries of bringing back religion into schools. Schools are battling drugs, gun violence, and pre-marital sex. That is all due to lack of moral teachings derived from Divine guidance. What world are you living in? Sounds like ostrich head buried deep in the sand.

I have friend whose forefathers did their education in Urdu medium even for engineering and medicine in 1940's in the occupied State of Hyderabad and they excelled in their respective fields. And we are 60 years after "independance" and still discussing whether Urdu or English or Punjabi medium?

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 15:57 #
stingingnettle
Member

Abdul Rehman;

Thank you for your comments;

"This needs to happen ASAP when you want to impart real education. "

Following is a quote from the Washington Post article you refer to;

"TEHRAN - Iran is overhauling its education system to rid it of Western influence"

This sounds more like a purge rather than educational reform. Religious zealots cannot be trusted with educational policy, as a matter fact they can't even be trusted with a sharp scissor.

Educational reform is about ECLECTICISM not erasure. This looks like the creation of a dissent-free and discussion-free environment in Iran. Hardly educational reform.

I quote further from the same article;

" Science Ministry, which has responsibility for higher education, working to strip out what they describe as Western theories and replace them with Islamic ones. Dozens of professors have already retired or been fired on the grounds that they did not sufficiently support the new policy."

So this is your idea of educational reform? Dare I say there is no such thing as Islamic theories or science just as there is no such thing as Christian or Jewish theories or science. Muslims had to learn from some one else (egvthe Greeks, the Indians) before they could take ideas forward. So lets stop with the religious branding of educational thought and learning.

What Iran is doing is akin to Mao Zhe Dong's cultural revolution of 1966 - 76 which resulted in the unspeakable persecution of writers, teachers and scientists. It's obvious, to me that Iran's clergy is not interested in change but putting a steel structure around their own grip on power in the name of change.

You write in you second comment;

"West is on brink of collapse."

Would someone living in the West please answer this question for me because I can't answer this sitting in Lahore; Is the West on the brink of collapse? Are all guys living in the West about to come to a messy end? I would be grateful for a quick response because we are about to lose power for 3 hours.

Abdul Rehman; you need to ruminate on ideas yourself and not regurgitate other people's conclusion. Make your own mistakes and don't be accountable for other people's stupidities.

We must come up with a solution ourselves. I envisage an eclectic system where there is an inclusive approach to teaching and learning. Where all children are given a fair opportunity to do well.

ChangeIK:

You make a huge amount of sense to me. Schools are not places where religion is thrust down children's throats and where asking questions as treated as a sign of rebellion. Schools are places where all sorts of questions can be asked and answered without the fear of being thrown out or killed.

I am inclined to think like you; let parents teach religion at home and leave Civics, Ethics, and Critical Thinking to schools.

And yes, Urdu as a medium of instructions by all means as long as we teach English and another modern foreign language to all children.

Thank your for some good stuff.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 16:44 #
pakistani47
Member

This is a very good topic. We should encourage such topics instead of 100s of topics on IK & NS. I am enjoying arguments of boths sides.

Initial comments of Rohail Taqi are excellent. I think he knows about education as a subject alot. His points are very valid and must be considered.

I dont want to take sides here as both groups are giving very good arguments.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 16:52 #
stingingnettle
Member

bsobaid:

"Many Pakistans living in western countries say schools there transform children in no time, even if they maintain desi mahool in their homes."

And that is exactly why we need to get our education system in order. That is why we can implode or explode as a society if we get it wrong.

Thanks for that.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 16:54 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Nettle,

I do not agree with Iranian actions per say. They have desire for change but their revolution was nationalistic and stalled at their own borders and could not even convince any other country , not even so called Shite majority Iraq. They still have the concept of clergy which is alien to Islam. So their basic belief is the problem and they could not succeed. They have to revamp their ideology before making headway in any field.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 17:23 #
stingingnettle
Member

Abdul Rehman;

Why did you then begin your earlier comment with;

"This needs to happen ASAP when you want to impart real education. "

which was a reference to the article about Iran in Washington Post?

When you don't agree with it, why did you want this to happen ASAP?

Strange. Very strange.

Anyway; back to the topic;

" So their basic belief is the problem and they could not succeed. "

I would just say 'belief' is the problem in education; it stifles dialogue and debate and questioning.

I am glad you have rejected the Iranian idea of educational reform very quickly.

As I said; people are more interested in YOUR opinion as opposed to when and what others have said and done and how brilliant it was then. It's best that we make our own mistakes.

Education reform is about being bold and daring and explore new approaches to teaching and learning with an open mind.

We need to teach our children in a new way because what has happened so far has not worked.

We need to separate memory and desire from what our country needs now.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 20:51 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Nettle,

It is not strange when one system replaces the old one. The Iranians knew that Islamic system held sway over much of the world for 800 years until 19th century and is the only viable alternative around. But they lacked the wherewethal and right knowledge to pursue their ambition. Again as most scholars said about Turks, it also applies to Iranians that "they loved Islam more than they understood it". And this coupled with their ignorance about Shariah and pagan practices prevented them to harness the fruits of the revolution.

Same thing happened in Russia after the collapse of communism. The entire history and curriculum was changed overnight and all symbols of communism like Stalin were eradicated to give a new capitalistic look to Russia. Again one system was replaced by another system that was equally corrupt and oppressive.

The education system need a revamp for sure ASAP but we need to have the rigth system to replace the previous one. There is certainly a viable alternative around and our focus should be to identify that system by staying clear of all man made systems that have proven to be disaster.

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 1:42 #
stingingnettle
Member

Abdul Rehman

Thank you for your comments;

Your write;

"staying clear of all man made systems"

So which of the non-made systems should we go for? It would be fair to say that there are at least a hundred if not more interpretation of what God's plan for education is.

When the Christian Europe went for the non-man made system; it ended up excommunicating Galileo and persecuting some of the finest men and women of their time. The death of one of the earliest known female Mathematician and astronomer, Hypatia, at the hands of Nicean monks is a testament to a system that does not work.

And when muslims went for the God-made system, we were plunged into darkness for centuries, out of which, we still have to emerge.

Compare the South Koreans and the Saudis. Korea is generations ahead of Saudi Arabia in technology and learning and we all know that "Islamic" education systems don't come in any purer form than in Saudi Arabia.

A more current example from Pakistan is the expulsion of students from a school on this basis of their religion.

It is a fantasy to think a perfect education system exists. You are chasing a mirage and deflecting responsibility. We need to begin somewhere and then keep tweaking the system slowly following the principle of eclecticism. A school is not a place for religious education (or indoctrination) unless it is religious education about all faiths. In brief, we have to stop passing the buck back to God and get off our backsides and starting doing things ourselves.

Also I as said previously;

"I would just say 'belief' is the problem in education; it stifles dialogue and debate and questioning."

The incredible intolerance we see in Pakistan today is a direct result of an education system that is a hodge podge of religious ideology and some outdated and discredited ideas about learning and teaching.

So my view is; no, we do not need an education system that is infallible and unquestionable. We need an education system where every thing can be questioned and criticised.

This is not about religious education or the so called 'secular education' but it is simply about education. People can and perhaps should give religious education of their choice to their children at home.

And no, the West is not about to crumble despite the fact no one has written to confirm this who lives in the West.

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 10:47 #