gv
Member
Which of you agree with the below excerpt?
"..Instead of pronouncing moral judgments on everything and anything, we Pakistanis need to reaffirm what is truly important for our people: Peace, Economic Justice, Good Governance, Rule of law, Accountability of Rulers, Women’s Rights and rationality in human affairs. Washington must be resisted, but only when it seeks to drag Pakistan away from these goals.."
(taken from the editorial of a pakistani newspaper)
In case we progress at the following sectors such as,
"Peace, Economic Justice, Good Governance, Rule of law, Accountability of Rulers, Women’s Rights and rationality in human affairs"
there would be no need to resist,
Wahington sharam se hi mer jayye ga.
achtung
Member
i agree 1000%
Who could disagree with above? No thinking person.
naseemkhanan
Member
A secular fascist only can shy away from a Deen calling it ‘moral judgment’ .It is pervaz hoodboy again who is pronouncing his moral judgment on us who are citizens of Islamic Jamhooriya Pakistan because it is a causes of great pain to him attaching Islam to Pakistan even in a title.
Sugar coated words from an Islamophobic who is unaware what he has named as Peace, Economic Justice, Good Governance, Rule of law, Accountability of Rulers, Women’s Rights and rationality in human affairs is found in Islam itself. Only he has to prove it it is not and that is why he came up with this brilliant idea on his own to inform us.
America should stop meddling into affairs of other nations so that it can also live in peace.
so this was said by Hoodbhouy?
toamin
member
lolzz... Naseem you have exposed it nicely, I was about to investigate the matter but you have done it nicely, well done :)
Pakistan needs,
"Peace, Economic Justice, Good Governance, Rule of law, Accountability of Rulers, Women’s Rights and rationality in human affairs"
How and where all these could come from, should be practiced.
Right now it looks that the tank is either empty or low on Gas, to run the engine up to the destination.
toamin
member
well, while looking at the tank's status also look at the wheels, engine, body, structure and other parts or else you might have a full tank but flat tyres :)
Salam Sahib, that was wit of a high order! I feel privileged to have heard it.
toamin
member
thanks mirza ghalib
..and nice try gv.. you almost got away with it :)
thanks to naseem for his/her vigilance-
Musician
Member
Mirz Ghalib
I would have agreed with you had the spellings of "tyres" not been that tiresome.
toamin
member
Mirz Ghalib
I would have agreed with you had the spellings of "tyres" not been that tiresome.
lolzz.. spellings or spelling?
:)
gv
Member
@salam
well i was going to offer points to the person who guessed the origins but that would have been too obvious..
anyway the point remains that everybody seems to agree with the statement above... hoodbhoy or no hoodbhoy...
my personal opinion on the man is he comes across as too arrogant and a bit of a know it all... but the fact remains the statement remains valid and sensible...
gv
Member
@naseem
No one denies that islam upholds and projects "Peace, Economic Justice, Good Governance, Rule of law, Accountability of Rulers, Women’s Rights and rationality in human affairs."
The point is what should our focus be on?
Many of our respected members on this site focus on hating other nationalities and religions, predicting invevitable 'clashes of civilisations', and playing victim all the time... And all of that ilk tend to use religion and faith as a rallying call.
So who makes more sense? the 'secular fascist' hoodbhoy who asks the people to focus on what is good and progressive and live in harmony with the global community or the 'religio-fascist' who asks the people to live in perpetual fear and hatred of other states and nations?
toamin
member
good experiment, i can understand your reason behind this exercise :)
Musician, what difference how one spells? Great playwright Bernard Shaw, also a man with a clear social consience, once said something like. I write it the way it comes. My editors are in charge of the spelling. Take a great singer like Rafi, sometimes his pronunciation is so awful, one can hardly understand the final syllable. Still, he's among the greatest. Or don't you agree?
gv
Member
@salam
thanks - incidentally i am the first to say that the secular fascists are just as guilty as the religious fascists of pronouncing moral judgement on everything
gv, all the above would have made greater sense had the "world community" not been trying to get rid of as many Muslims as possible in the shortest period of time. How come the war is never mentioned in any context by anyone here? Or perhaps on some nightmarish night we simply dreamt it up? Had we not been at war for ever so long now, we might have taken considerable strides forward already. They have stolen at least some ten years of our lives in many Muslim nations. gv, sorry, the points of focus you enumerated are wholly right. But the context denies us any access to them at the moment.
A vehicle with flat tires, bad body structure, dented wheels and having some other performance related defects, normally ends up in a junkyard.
If the vehicle has been in the repair shop for an accumulative number of days and turns out to be lemon,
it goes back to the factory for dismantling.
toamin
member
yes, i can see your 'car' heading towards junkyard after spending number of days in repair workshop :)
good luck-
gv
Member
@mg
So why is indonesia not a target or bangladesh or india for that matter (more muslims than pakistan remember) or nigeria, or kazakhstan or turkey or tunisia or morrocco or algeria etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
No gv, hang on. Somewaht unfair. We've been qualified as a threat by the powers that be for the deterrents we own and which make them nervous. Plus all the prophesying about us which the p-t-b know as well as we ourselves do.
I remember you saying: yes, Muslims were behind 9/11. Your choice. But then why the attack on Iraq? You want all Muslims to be wiped off the face of the earth? Or are the invaders so strong they can take them all on at the same time? From your list above, Nigeria they are having problems with. Turkey is too clever for them by far. The others are quietly playing along. And Kyrgystan has just stepped out of their zone.
gv
Member
@mg
Here you go again with all the morally righteous emotion. My opinion on the perpetrators of 9 11 is immaterial. All that concerns me is pakistan and everyone is in agreement they weren't pakistani.
Why wouldn't you rather be a 'clever' country like turkey? How do you think places like indonesia, turkey etc get to be able to pursue their self interests from a position of strength? I can assure you its not by playing 'poor liitle victim me' on the world stage.
The reason why other muslim countries are not termed a threat is because they represent functional stable societies who focus on national progress as opposed to global mayhem.
gv, no morally righteous emotion, actually. Simply facts. Of course I'd rather we were like Turkey than the way we are. Ah, are we really doing that: playing poor little victim me on the world stage? I thought that was another category of people, also on the world stage. We are more of a stoicial bunch here.
Whatever. We are not a stable society yet for many reasons which you know well or even better than me. I certainly can't accept that bit about global mayhem. We are not the cause. Again you seem to get us mixed up with another lot. Also gv, that's us, Pak, but you didn't answer my question about why Iraq needed to be attacked as well.
If I get on your nerves simply, you needn't give an answer. I shan't count it as discourteous on your part.
P.S. I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable or cut you down to size or anything like that. I spoke without thinking to bolster a certain point I was trying to make. My apologies.
Shock
Members
"A secular fascist only can shy away from a Deen calling it ‘moral judgment’ .It is pervaz hoodboy again who is pronouncing his moral judgment on us who are citizens of Islamic Jamhooriya Pakistan because it is a causes of great pain to him attaching Islam to Pakistan even in a title."
An Islamic fascist cannot live or survive without hating everybody other than their own. They shy away from secularism because then they won't be able to impose khilafat/dictatorship on other people.
The owner of the car is irrelevant.
Sentences like 'Your car', 'my car', 'his car','her car' are bekaar.
I put down the normal procedure about the fate of a machine.
No driver or mechanic could run or fix the 'Baleela' after all the possible attempts for 63 years.
gv
Member
@MG
im not blaming the pakistani nation i'm blaming elements within society who insist on focusing on war, death destruction, victimisation, hatred etc
@ gv,
I agree.
There is not any serious problem with Pakistani Nation as a whole.
I am sure a majority of Pakistanis want to live like other developed and civilized nations.
They mostly, voted for a change and progress.
The problem is caused by the speed breakers and obstacles being created by those "who insist on focusing on war, death, destruction, victimization, hatred etc"
gv, there I do agree with you. Optimism is the order of the day, if that's what you mean, and we should go down that path. I go so far as to say personal responsibility is what counts, Let's bypass the Government and get things running ourselves. But I haven't found many takers yet for that way of seeing things. God bless, gv. Take care and keep well.
@gv
I was trying to post earlier but electricity did not cooperate. Here is what I had written but could not post:
@gv
"Which of you agree with the below excerpt?..."Is that a loaded question?
"Instead of pronouncing moral judgments on everything and anything, we Pakistanis need to reaffirm what is truly important for our people:... "
"DON'T talk against current setup""Peace, " means "We are fighting for it"
"Economic Justice," means "10% has to go to Zardari and all those talking corruption are anti-democracy and with the Taliban" means "Good Governance, " means "we are already on our way towards it"
"Rule of law, " means "with Babar Awan as Law Minister and Government refusing to accept SC judgements, who could ask for more"
"Accountability of Rulers, " means "NRO"
"Women’s Rights" means "we have Samar Minallah, Firdos Awan, etc"
"and rationality in human affairs" means "let the law of the jungle continue"Lastly, "Washington must be resisted, but only when it seeks to drag Pakistan away from these goals.." I find VERY odd. It makes no sense. You are suggesting Washington is "resisited" when it is working in Pakistan's interest? Wow! Nice one.
But seeing where you are headed, I was on the right track ;-)
(To continue )
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@gv: As a result of actions, decisions of Mr. Hoodbhoy, I have nothing but contempt for him.
dear gv
my two pence on "moral judgement"
Freedom of thought is a blessing not a curse. It becomes curse when man deny the existence of God and all resultant moral values
FJ
gv
Member
@hk
Fair enough
@nota
I have no idea what you're on about - i think its fairly clear that -km no apologist for the current establishment
@gv
BTW: Why did you choose NOT to be direct? Why did you camouflage the issue? Is that not dishonest? Is this not the same trick as you tried to use here:
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/nuclear-weapons-do-we-need-them
(There I called you on it as well and all you had to offer was the lame "just a passing whim" excuse. Also VERY curious is it too was to defendd Yahoodbhoy (I was bashing him under http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/adkgs-parvez-hoodbhouy) and you find it necessary to start a new topic. Why so in love with this fella???)
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
As far as the notions raised by Mr. Hoodbhoy, our valued member 'Naseem' has already put it well i.e., all of those can be achieved by;
(1) adhering to Islam
(2) adhering to Islam's standards
(3) adhering to Islam's standards of justice
(4) living our lives according to Islam (which is what I said in the points above)
zia m
Member
The problem is that less than 1% (Taliban) in Pakistan are trying to impose their version of morality on the rest of the nation and they don't want to stop there, want it imposed on the whole world.
gv
Member
@nota
As I explained earlier I am personally anti nuclear and was merely curious as to how many people were pro nuclear on this forum and yes your posts were the reason I raised the issue.
I find hoodbhoy a bit arrogant and superior but will agree with his anti nuclear stance and pro development stance on a point of principle I hope you can understand that........
@zia m
and you think the seculars like Behoodby and you, who are not even 0.001% of pakistani soceity are not ENFORCING your version of morality on the rest of the people.
FJ
zia m
Member
Secularism is wrongly translated as ladeeni.Seculars simply want freedom of every religion or sect.They don't believe in going around killing people with different point of view.
One does not need to have a religion to be morally good but that is a different discussion.
SufiSoul
Member
{{{{{{{"Muslims dont accept any human rights type things which is beyond the ISLAMIC CODE of conduct..And they can only claim human rights under Islamic charter only...This must be clear......"
This sort of Islam is unacceptable to west as it goes against secularism and equality for all. Opposition to such Islam is understandable. No tolerance for the intolerant.
"BUT when secular claims that all the religions can flourish freely under secularism ..."
A religion that also abides by the rule of mutual respect and equality; the underlying principles of secularism. If not then such religion undermines the flourishing of other faith's and ideologies. This is not a one way street and secular societies are not idiots to allow any intolerance to flourish. You can't except respect if you are not willing to give the same. Such religions that do not believe in equality should remain in their homelands and need not bother coming over to the west. Least of all they should avoid giving others lecture on rights and equality. ))))))))))
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is ur previous post abt secularism......
Sharm tum ko magar nahi athi.......
@Zia m
"Secularism is wrongly translated as ladeeni.Seculars simply want freedom of every religion or sect"
For you who love to do copy and paste from Wikipedia.
Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.
In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. (See also Separation of church and state and Laïcité.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism
Waaqi'i sharm tum ko magar nahi aati
FJ
SufiSoul
Member
This sort of Islam is unacceptable to west as it goes against secularism and equality for all. Opposition to such Islam is understandable. No tolerance for the intolerant. ....
such bolna gunah nahi.pahle hi bol daithy tho acha tha na..itna time zaya kiya apna.....
So it is proved that secularism is not the solution for muslims any where in the world.......
Its just A BUNCH OF STUPIDS MADE LAWS called secularism....
KHUDA HAFIZ,
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This was my response......
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@zia m: STOP! this nonsense of repeatedly abusing the word 'impose'.
IF you use the word 'impose', I will give you so many examples, that I will put you to shame.
There's too much evidence available in real life to prove that your statement is a lie.
zia m
Member
FJ,
Separation of religion and state is not a bad idea, it does not recognize the supremacy of christians over muslims and sunnis over shia or vice versa.
Living in a secular US, i don't want my tax money to promote christianity or mormonism.
But nobody is keeping muslims from practicing their version of Islam.
zia m
"Living in a secular US, i don't want my tax money to promote christianity or mormonism"
Living in secular US, then keep your twisted moronic secular ideas to yourself, we in muslim lands DONOT need them.
We don not need lessons of morality from seculars like you.
FJ
achtung
Member
i agree with explaination of secularism said by zia m. i agree with above post of zia m. this is good to keep peace and harmony in we people. it not hurt our religion.
Achtung::: i agree with explaination of secularism said by zia m. i agree with above post of zia m. this is good to keep peace and harmony in we people. it not hurt our religion.
Khawajee da gwah daddoo
FJ
Waaqi'i sharm tum ko magar nahi aati (quotation from above posts).
LOL
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