stingingnettle
Member
I have often wondered about the answer to this question and my answer keeps changing every time I try to answer it.
Is it the politicians, is it foreign forces, is it big corporations, is it the people, is it the banks, is it the military, is it the media or is it the feudal lords? Who or what controls our destiny?
What do you think?
Jutt kharak
Member
All of the above. How about that? But you are jumping the Gun here. Question should be how to take charge of your destiny? Destiny lay in future somewhere and you have already given up?
stingingnettle
Member
Jutt Kharak
You need to know who controls it before you can work out how to take it away from them.
No, I have not given up at all. I just think we need to work out where to start the fixing process. I do not believe in living in the past or the future. Our only option as a nation is to live in the here and now. The present is where your destiny is made or broken.
I do not think the answer is as simplistic as 'All of the above', it is perhaps deeper. Let me come back to you on this.
sultanalikhan
Member
@StingingNettle.....answer to your query is "no one", its the rudderless at the moment...
without getting into religion aspect or attempting to act philosophical here, I would say the destiny of Pakistan is discussed and decided by USA-West coaliation, trimmed and inflated by circumstances, put on course by greed and selfishness, shaped by civilian leadership, executed by military janta and thrown to dogs by its population!!!
Like I said above, Pak's destiny is rudderless!!!
stingingnettle
Member
SultanAliKhan;
Thanks for your comments; I think you make a credible point about Pakistan's destiny looking rudderless. I can see your angle on this and I can't help feeling hugely alarmed by the lack of direction.
To me the biggest stake holders in Pakistan's destiny are the people who endure unspeakable hardship in their everyday life but it seems either they are incapable of understanding the connection between their actions and their destiny or they simply suffer from 'someone-else-will-do-it' syndrome. The huge non-voting class of Pakistan behaves like a 'rusaeya maahee' (my attempt at a Punjabi expression)who refuse to take part in the political process because it's just too dirty and yes, it smells to high heaven. You notice therefore the growth of gated communities of 'rusaeyae maahee' cropping up everywhere. It's the sign of the times. We don't want live with the consequences of our inaction but we don't want to take interest and act. Bizarre.
It's a bit like film scene in which everyone is so caught up in a situation on an aircraft, when someone shouts, 'and who the hell is flying the plane!' SAK, I think you may have nailed it.
expakistani
Member
people living in Pakistan... All shape & form... who elected president among them self and blame same president for doing what whole nation is doing.
expakistani
stingingnettle
Member
Expakistani
I think what you say carries weight. The only thing I would like to add is, it is not the people of Pakistan who elected the current president to lead our destiny; he was 'elected' as a result of some very suspect voting lists, crony-ism and Pakistan's love for the glorious dead. So, no he was no more elected than Bilawal was or will be in the future. We take the notion of safe-seat to a new level. I won't elaborate lest I should offend.
It might just be our worst nightmare come true; we are nationally inept as opposed to just institutionally or individually. A very grim prospect indeed.
expakistani
Member
Bhai
tell me few things
- Who creates voting list?? some indian citizen?
- Who agreed to select/elect Billawa? Russian Citizen?
- Who bribed and get Bribed on Liberty Chowak lahore... American citizen?
- Most who do crony-ism and preach again it in Karachi and Kyber are Pakistani Citizen.
stingingnettle
Member
Expakistani
At no point did I suggest that people who helped rig the elections were foreigners. I actually agree with your point that it is not foreign conspirators that elect/select these nepotistic dumbos but us Pakistanis who are either part of the defrauding process or are too scared to stand up and say no to it.
My point is; can we ever take control of our destiny? Do we have the mindset to do it or are we a nation of Mir Jaffars who are destined to derail any process that will lead us out of this misery? I believe the fog will lift once we understand that fatalism is not the narrative of success and neither is the glorification of the dead. Can people begin to think beyond me, myself and I and start working on we, ourselves and us? I don't know the answer to this. However, one thing I know, we must disengage from the deadly embrace of nostalgia and personality cults.
@ stingingnettle
To me the biggest stake holders in Pakistan's destiny are the people who endure unspeakable hardship in their everyday life but it seems either they are incapable of understanding the connection between their actions and their destiny or they simply suffer from 'someone-else-will-do-it' syndrome.
Excellent analysis. Now question is who will be able to cure this syndrome. I can not see anyone in current lot of leaders.
sultanalikhan
Member
@StingingNettle.......mate love your description of Pakistanis ineptitude "rusaeya maahee".....a good attempt at Punjabi, aye!!! keep it up..
@ExPakistani....you seemed pizzed at people's overuse of "conspiracy theory" as a punch bag for all their problems....and your anger appears well directed....
In this cosy club atmosphere with each one agreeing with everyone else, may I interject a small voice of dissent. No one controls Pakistan's destiny. Our desitny is written in the stars. You are all arguing, seems to me, from a western attitude towards one of the most eastern of countries.
Forget awam-bashing, would you. The people of Pakistan are daily out on the streets, if anyone is following the news, and they are treated like a lot of passive idiots. That they are not. Also, one factor which is never mentioned on most occasions, Pakistan is at war, has been at war over the past ten years, eleventh year starting. So, to get back to your question, the destiny of Pakistan is closely linked to the outcome of that war and who will control it thereafter should also be clear to all those who know something about Pak politics, the only politician we have around with absolutely clean hands.
outspokenloud
Blocked
it is not a rocket science !!!!!!!!
if a politician complains to be not in control over the matters he/she should resign immediately,
if politicians want military establishment not to intervene, dictate & control it has to be inspired by high moral ground.
Corrupts, crooks, loan deaulters, money launderers, SRO, NRO ,those involved in Kick backs, commissions, bribes, under table deals, govt contracts favors, nepotism ,lickers of genrals, America,royal family of Saudia Arabia , deal makers, & have interest out side Pakistan, may never achieve the goal, if you want to have real example study Turkey history specially for the last 15 years
scandinavian
Member
@OSL
That's exactly what PTI demands and that's exactly what happened in Erdogan's Turkey. He did go for elections instead of becoming the puppet of the Turkish army. After the elections he came back with an even more solid mandate and has put the Turkish army in to it's rightful place. Look to which heights he is taken Turkey towards to? Great man with a vision for Turkey. May he get success, ameen!
sultanalikhan
Member
lol@rosy club...in fact it was becoming suffocating...thanks for the dissenting note....
Well Mirza Ghalib...there is no doubt about Pakistanis amongst the bravest people; facing the most unfriendly conditions without much ado, no denying that...
It is only their upper storey that seems clogged when it comes to electing their leaders...hence destiny theoritically is in their own hands, but practically they are the ones letting it slip and rendering rudderless!!!!
Thanks SultanAliKhan, I'm glad you agree about the Pakistanis being "amongst the bravest of people+. As for whether they voted in any government whatsoever, they may have been much maligned since the number of bogus votes we've managed to trace since seems to imply they might not have voted in anyone at all.
No comment on Turkey which is neither fish nor flesh nor good red herring and an ally of infamous NATO. But keep your worship alive, why not. It's only Muslims getting killed after all.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
I agree with you, a debate without dissent is simply the AGM of National Mutual Congratulatory Society. I appreciate you sprinkling some lemon juice on the debate.
First of foremost, you and I are the awam, the people, the consumers of the fine truths that are chucked our away by a motley crew of politicians, bureaucrats, military brass, foreigners and anybody else who is a purveyor of fine truths. I have no desire to insult or bash the awam, I am sure we are capable of doing it brilliantly ourselves.
Ghalib, I am happy to accept your premise that Pakistanis are not passive idiots but where is the beef on this assertion? May they are active fatalists? One thing is for sure; their pain threshold is the highest in the world.
Pakistani47;
I only wish I knew the answer to your question; I wouldn’t be sitting here writing comments, I would be sipping Earl Grey or Darjeeling with important dignitaries in a palace paid for the few tax payers of Pakistan. My worst fear is that it may be a catch-22 situation. Change is a function of awareness which is in turn a function of change. I hope I am wrong about it.
SAK
Punjabi is the only language I know, in which you can say it the way it is. I am sure others will say so about their own mother-tongues. Pakistanis think they are the only ones who live in a brick house in a world where everyone else dwells in a glass house. That is why it easier for us to throw stones at others. That is why there are a million explanations and excuses that miss the point and so we shoot arrows in all directions except the one that is the real cause of the great stink aka political stagnation.
Pakistani awam has got a lot an explanation to do. At the moment viz a viz the next elections, they are like an underprepared candidate going in for their matriculation exams.
Turkey’s emancipation from the clutches of the military has happened in tandem with economic growth. My point being when most Pakistanis are queuing up to get flour, sugar and fuel, do they have the time and inclination to get philosophical about their destiny?
scandinavian
Member
@MG sb.
"No comment on Turkey which is neither fish nor flesh nor good red herring and an ally of infamous NATO. But keep your worship alive, why not. It's only Muslims getting killed after all."
You are demanding an overnight change from the Turkish leadership. Yes they are members of the NATO, but also look at the transformation they are going through. Bear in mind they are still in this phase of transforming the Turkish society. Turkey has tripled the BNP in a few years, their army is fast being put in place, the Israeli ambassador has been expelled.
I think you will see a distancing to NATO in the future. I don't believe Turkey nor wants or can be a member of EU. I also see another alliance including Pakistan provided Pakistan can get out of the clutches of corrupt politicians, army and bureaucrats.
expakistani
Member
@stingingnettle
My point is; can we ever take control of our destiny?
Yes we can, the day when we all refuse to pay "Nashta Pani" for police wala.
and socially boycott our own corrupt relatives who are working in Railways, Costumes, police WAPDA etc.
That would be the start....
stingingnettle
Member
Expakistani
Your write, '...Yes we can, the day when we all...'
Your 'when' is a very big 'when' indeed. Do you think we are brave enough to refuse to pay 'Nasta Pani'?
You reminded me of the time when I first applied for my driving license, they made me return eleven times to the collect my license because I refused to pay a bribe. On the eleventh occasion the clerk (aka devil's own spawn) flung it through the air on to the floor. My joy of having won against the forces of evil was short lived; I opened my license book to realise they had issued me a license for driving a car! To find out what happened next you will have to my book!
On a more serious note; I agree with you that hard but good place to start would be by rejecting the corruption of our nearest and dearest. This is when we are at our hypocritical best.
One thing you will perhaps agree with, there is little or no choice for us except change. That will be the beginning of the slow process of prising our destiny out of the fingers of the corrupt and unworthy.
stingingnettle, thanks for not taking my words amiss. I was being tongue-in-cheek and cheeky. Sorry about that. Also, had you not used the word "destiny" in the title but said something like: who's really running Pak? I might have had a different answer to suggest. About the people of Pakistan, the thing is they are stoical, indeed. But they, too have their limits and someday those limits will also be breached. But perhaps we'll manage to turn round the situation before that point is reached.
Scandinavian, I, too, thought highly of Erdogan until we suddenly saw the true face of the man over Libya first and then Syria. Since then, it's been downhill all the way with my respect for the Turkish leader. Except that many people have not caught on yet. Not to worry, though, they'll find out soon enough, along with Turkey's behind-the-scenes relations with Israel and outward show of enmity. Turkey can have a BNP the size of China (I have my own views on how they've come by it), it makes no difference to me. There is no greatness, Scandinavian, without morality. No west puppet can lay claims to greatness. Nor can devious behaivour in the extreme qualify as moral.
scandinavian
Member
@MG sb.
I agree that a BNP is not a measure for success - at least not single handed one, but I still think that you are making a rash decision about Turkey. We have to consider that they have been involved in the westernization maybe like no other Muslim country and for ages. It will take time to reverse some of the ills, and I have faith in it. I cannot prove it since I don't know what is going through the minds of the Turkish leadership, but the developments including the fights between the westernized Turkish army and Islamic oriented political leadership under Erdogan make me believe that something good will happen to Turkey. I don't believe the fight is a circus=**** kushti, but a genuine fight between the bright future of Turkey and the powerful Turkish army.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
Thanks for your optimism. I can't resist quoting the following verse;
aah koe chaaheeyea ik umar asar hoonay tak
kaon geetaa hai teri zulf ke sir hoonay tak
We are all mortals, how long do we wait before the breach?
Mirza Ghalib, I am not sure if I understand why Turkey has gone down in your estimation after it's vocal support for the Libyan and Syrian people? I think Syrian Government is committing cold blooded murder of its citizens just like Qaddafi. I am sure you are not suggesting that other muslim countries to remain silent and just watch. Lets not forget Turkey's support for Gazans.
A peaceful transfer of power back to the people is always necessary and desirable but as they say when power goes to your head, there is no high better than that. Destiny and power may be closely linked. The Turks understand that.
Scandinavian, have it your own way. But time will tell. I was trying to find a video to post for you, but failed badly in the attempt. It's on today's What Really Happened, if you ever watch that monumnetal blogsite. Anyway, this is not about Government and army. Even in Pakistan, it is no longer about that. It is about Erdogan's ambitions, hypocrisy and betrayal of his Muslim neighbour.
singingnettle, it will be within our own lifetime, not to worry.
About Turkey, it's not what you think it is. Just as Libya is not what you apparently think it is. Turkey has been trying to attack Syria for sometime now following an agreement it concluded with Sarkozy of France. It's not for nothing that Syria has the strongest army in the Middle East. The protests in Syria like in Libya were engineered by foreign powers, among them Qatar in the case of Libya, for instance, and Turkey in the case of Syria. And there is absolutely no, but I repeat no support for the Gazans from Turkey. There never was, there never will be while Erdogan is in power. Everything else is simply playacting on the part of that ambtious man. Get taken in if you like. Until your eyes suddenly shoot open.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
A few points I would like to pick you on.
Syria has the strongest army in the Middle East? Can I suggest Israel? Surely we have not forgotten the bombing of Syrian facilities by the Israelis a couple of years back. What was the Syrian response? Ah, nothing. Dare I mention Golan? The Syrian army is good at suppressing and killing it's own people.
Can you see that first the despotic Hafiz Al Asad and now the equally despotic Bashar Al Asad ruling the country as if it was God himself who gave them a direct order to do so. Have you actually seen the wonderful huge murals and posters of God's chosen ones, the Asads, everywhere in Syria including schools. Ghalib, they are not controlling the destiny of Syria, they are strangling it.
I am loss as to why you didn't say a single word against the dictator Bashar. If he has nothing to fear, he should allow multi-party democratic election, then we will know for sure how much the Syrians love him. All of the above goes for the tyrant Gaddafi. Any country that helps rid Syria and Libya, for what ever reason, are doing the people of both the countries a favour.
Pakistan has something similar but in somewhat different form. In Pakistan's case, it's political musical chairs. Pakistan's destiny is stuck in first gear because we are unable to see that worshipping the dead or families of the rich and infamous is not part of God's plan for the emancipation of Pakistanis. Meanwhile the destiny of Pakistan is like an over brewed cup of tea, bitter, dark and hard to swallow.
I hope you are right about the tipping point.
I am right about the tipping point, I have no doubts about that. As little as I doubt that the Syrian "uprising" is anything of the kind many of you seem to believe it is. Ditto for Gadhafi, the great Muslim African leader. You fail to see, you fail to see, singingnettle. You're just another victim of MSM lies. But I'll not hold it against you. As for the "strongest army" in the Mideast, I'll correct that with apologies to the strongest Muslim army, although I could make the point that Israel has no army at all. It's all US stuff. Their soldiers are not worth the uniforms they wear. On a par with the soldiers of the army of the parent country itself.
Last but not least, neither Gadhafi nor Bashar were any kind of tyrants. The former has the adherence of most of the Libyan tribes, the latter was one of the few leaders in the Muslim world to mingle with his own people without the least presence of any bodyguards. stingingnettle, since you don't know me at all so far, let me add for your information that in my eyes democracy is only one possible form of govt and not necessarily the best kind we could have invented. For Hafez, I'll not say a word. He's dead and gone and may he rest in peace. But he was a strong leader in a dangerous world and always a man of his word.
Scandinavian, I've got it. Listen to this if you have a minute.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
Thanks for your comments. I would like to assure you, I am not a victim of any misinformation or brain washing. I find the dynastic nature of both Gaddafi and Asad families deeply abhorrent. The question is simply one of democracy; if Mr Asad or Mr Gaddafi are so self-sure, I suggest free elections. It is very hard to deny extra judicial killings in Syria and Libya. If the best the strongest Army in the middle East can do is to murder it's own people, then I doubt there is any strength in it at all.
Returning to the main discussion on this thread; Pakistan's destiny keeps returning to the military not because the military wants it but simply because the democratic leaders show such callous disregard for people problems that all of a sudden even the military seems like a good option. My personal opinion is that the military in Pakistan must withdraw from all aspect of civilian and commercial life and just focus of preventing another Abbotabad.
stingingnettle, thank you for your reply. Good of you to have taken the time to write, but I greatly fear we are not going to turn out to be a case of great minds that meet. See the tip of the SouthAm continent and the end of Asia, that's the distance separating us in our positions. But what does it matter? Carry on repeating your democracy mantra. Time might just about teach you other lessons. But, again, who can tell? So enough about Syria and Libya whose legitimate govts I strongly support and shall do so till the end whether it turns out to be bitter or sweet.
About Pakistan, it stands at antipodes from Libya which was a model Islam state, whereas we concentrated on strengthening our army, also an Islamic necessity. Had we worked together, we might have made a great team. Anyway, at this point in time, our army is the one thing that keeps us from the annihilation the US would so dearly love to inflict on us. So full support for that institution on my part. Reform will come later. I realise now I was too impatient in my desire to see change come to our country. This will now occur only when the invaders have been driven out of our neighbourhood.
junaid
Member
musharaf ki fauj, baironi akaas, fraudiye siyasat daan, gaon kai wadaira or urban wadairay
outspokenloud
Blocked
wikipedia on nawaz $shareer
Initial political career
He principally rose to public and political prominence as a staunch proponent of the military government of Chief Martial Law Administrator (designated himself as President) and Chief of Army Staff General Zia-ul-Haq during the 1980s. He maintained an alliance with General Rahimuddin Khan, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee. During his political career, Sharif also had close ties with ISI Director-Lieutenant-General (retired) Hamid Gul, who played a substantial role in the formation of the Islami Jamhoori Ittehad- a conservative political alliance that supported Sharif.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
Great minds do not always have to meet but the fun is in the dialogue and discussion. Difference of opinion is the spice that makes the biryani of life so tasty!
I guess I too will leave you with your belief in the legitimacy of Libyan and Syrian Government rulers (present or ex.)but I will never be able to regard them as anything more than usurpers of power. Yes, I guess time will tell who will have to eat humble pie.
How do you justify Pakistani military's involvement in commercial affairs of Pakistan ? It's bizarre and surreal that an army is selling bread and groceries amongst hundreds of other things. Can the Pakistani military keep it's eyes on the ball when there is money to be made elsewhere? I seriously think your faith in the military as the saviour is misplaced. I am in awe of the ordinary soldier of Pakistani army and I had the privilege of working with them in the 2005 earthquake relief work. I was blown away by their courage and dedication and sheer strength. The problem is the officers who control these soldiers, that is where the problem lies.
If the so called invaders left our neighbourhood, do you see peace, tolerance and prosperity? I agree, we must solve our regional problems ourselves but for that we need people who understand our destiny and how to control it. The greatest danger to Pakistan is from within and the same holds true for Afghanistan.
shaagird
Member
jahalat is 'controlling' us...
stingingnettle
Member
Junaid;
Perhaps, it we ourselves who have allowed our destiny to slip from our hands. We are a hugely reverential and subservient society, both in mindset and in the way we do politics. We live for the dead and die for the dead, but we never do anything for the living. We have got so used to khairat and bakshish that we have forgotten joy of eating bread we have earned. At the risk of sounding rude, the only thing that keeps us going is procreation. And in mindless procreation we provide slave labour to the rich and infamous. We have little or no notion that a child belongs to school and not slaving under the blazing sun in a rickshaw workshop trading his childhood for a handful of Rupees. So one day when we understand cause and effect, we will realise the generational waste of witnessed was avoidable. So are up for change?
stingingnettle
Member
Change can never be accidental. Make it happen.
Fair enough, stingingnettle, fair enough. Let's go straight to the army debate, shall we? Why do I trust the Pak army? You answered the question yourself. The common soldier's patriotism and courage. The high ups are not really my concern. As for their commercial activities, I never defended those in any way as far as I can remember. Stupid of them all in all, I'd say. Mainly, whatever my reservations regarding this major institution of ours, it has suddenly grown precious in my eyes after seeing what happened to Libya where the bulk of the wealth of the country went towards the people and the army was practically disbanded.
stingingnettle why "so-called" invaders, please? they are that in every possible respect. Or have you found another designation for them, something along the lines of "saviour" perhaps? Whatever, certainly I see huge changes occurring in our region after their departure. Peace, yes, tolerance? depends in which sense that word is being used. Personally, I have always thought of Pakistan and the rest of the Subcontinent as the most tolerant place in the world. Prosperity? definitely, with the entire Pak diaspora abroad chipping in to help out the homeland. I'm afraid I don't agree with your final statement. But that was obvious from the start. I view Pakistan and Afghanistan as the countries of the future. And I suspect you are more linked to places and standards already belonging to the past. Hence little chance of an agreement being reached.
stingingnettle
Member
Shaagird;
Good point but how do we get rid of jahaalat? More importantly who will get rid of jahaalat? Should we leave it to God and pray as hard as we can and hope for the best?
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
You can call the forces in Afganistan or Irag by any name you like, invaders, saviours, tourist, lost souls whatever; the fundamental questions is if they weren't there, would Afghanistan or Iraq a tolerant, pluralistic and peaceful place? I have no fondness for countries that park their tanks in our countries' backyards but then I little fondness for countries that cannot control what it exports. I think you are right huge changes will happen in future when our uninvited guests have left but these changes will leave the region like a chessboard. Not what the doctor ordered, most would say.
The subcontinent may well have been a very tolerant place once upon a time in a dream, but I am way to young to remember it. Could you throw some light on what you mean.
I doubt "the entire Pak diaspora abroad" will be throwing money into a bucket with no bottom. The heart strings that tug at the emotions of the Pakistani diaspora should not be mistaken for inward investments. Prosperity is a function of peace and order. I don't see either parameters making a show until we have had a cathartic experience as a nation. The force of status quo must go or must be removed by the people through the vote.
My money is riding on the youth of Pakistan who will tell the oldies and professional politicians that enough is enough, it's time to enjoy your lives sitting on a park bench. The youth of my country are the stars that will set the night sky ablaze. Then we will have prosperity, I agree.
shaagird
Member
stingingnettle
no, praying alone never helps. God helps those who help themselves.
but i dont know who will make things better and how. i wish so badly that was born in an independent, respected, and prosperous Pakistan. i try doing my bit in reducing jahalat... and i have big plans for future...
universal007
Member
america and zardari
stingingnettle
Member
KHAN;
If you say America and Zardari, then you are admitting that the locus of control of Pakistan's destiny is not within you. We stand defeated before we even started. Lets not give up our destiny so easily.
stingingnettle, To your first para this: where did you pick up your words there: "tolerant", "pluralistic", "peaceful", surely not in the place where you live in today.
They were exactly the ones that applied to the Subcontinent as whole over many, many centuries and down to the days of my own childhood. I and my friends could run about the streets of Karachi at night and no one worried for a second that something amiss could occur. No one was bothered by who was what, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jain. We were all one in the very best tradition of the Subcontinent. Anyway, that is ingrained in us and it isn't because foreigners of every ilk have had a go at us since, starting with our politics, that any of that has disappeared.It's all there under the surface.
OK, no Pak diaspora coming to the mother country's aid. You are modern, indeed, stingingnettle, but misinformed perhaps. If Pakistanis abroad have lost their sense of identity to such an extent, perhaps their commonsense still exists. Are they going to invest in the tottering west, do you think. Or hadn't you noticed that weapons and wars apart, those fabulous places have nothing more to offer the world? And you talk about a "cathartic" experience. Is war not enough for you? We are a war, an imposed war, and have been so for the past ten years at least. So what more do you want?
We are all counting on the youth of our country. And your lyrical outburst on their future contribution was all to your honour.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
Thanks for you comments;
Karachi may have been a better place during your childhood but it couldn't have been the best. I take your point that perhaps there was a time when our children could play in the street without any fear but I would like to press you on the issue of whether your experience was a representative one. The history of the subcontinent is not a brilliant example of ethnic and religious harmony. In 1947 it was neighbours who killed neighbours despite having lived next to them for generations.
It's is perhaps fair to say, the period of childhood is getting shorter and shorter as generations go by. The amount of information and media available to our young people is phenomenal and hence the pressures on them are unbearable too.
"tolerant", "pluralistic", "peaceful", are innate ideas and any rational human can arrive at their approximate meanings without having to live them or live in a place where you can experience them. These three words are closely linked to behaviour of individuals and societies that have respect for other peoples view no matter how different they are from yours.
I have no claim to modernity or original thought. Pakistanis have never had an identity and will never have one. It's a hugely flawed argument that somehow we will find something we have never had. You must confuse religious ideology with identity, they are both very different things. There is no place called the West, and there is certainly no way of living or system of existence called western. This is where the the East vs. West argument goes aground. People invest in responsible economic systems that operate under the law. This could be Timbaktu and people will invest there.
I do not consider war cathartic but only destructive and futile. The cathartic experience I am talking about is change; a deep and meaningful change in our whole approach to life. Stop paying lip service and start living a life governed by fairness, merit and tolerance. My cathartic experience will begin by turning our system of education on it's head.
Yes, I did get lyrical in the last line, I agree but the point I was making was it is the youth of Pakistan that will shine new light in the darkness that surrounds us at the moment. I can't see anyone else doing it.
Stingingnettle, we are definitely moving in circles. You won't mind if I give up here, would you? You have decided Pakistan is worth nothing, fine by me. You have made up your mind that three words define your ideal state: "tolerant", "pluralistic" and "peaceful". I put it to you that if you're living anywhere in the west as I imagine you do, you have no direct experience of any of the three, only the illusion that these are the values surrounding you. I definitely disgree with you that there is no such thing called the west, etc. There is and it is a pretty shabby, greedy, war-mongering construct. And that about sums it up.
No more on the subject with me, please. If it makes you feel any better, just believe me when I say you won the debate with top marks.
Pakistan will fare beutifully without the input of people who feel so little respect for the country itself, its history, its geography and its unique ideology.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
"You have decided Pakistan is worth nothing, fine by me."
You could not be further from the truth. I am full of hope for Pakistan but my hope is not based on sitting around doing nothing but actually working towards meaningful and fundamental change in the we think and the way we live.
I am happy to live in splendid disagreement with you and feel enriched by our dialogue despite the fact we agreed on little. Yes, perhaps this conversation has come to an end. I would like to assure you that I never have discussion with a view to scoring points or winning but simply for educating myself. So no I had no desire to win and I certainly have not won anything.
No, I suffer no illusion about what kind of Pakistan we should have. I am not an ideologue like you who believes in waiting for things to happen. I certainly have more than illusory experience of pluralism, peace and tolerance. My desire and experiences are real. In short I know my God given rights but I also know my God given responsibilities.
'Pakistan will fare beutifully without the input of people who feel so little respect for the country itself, its history, its geography and its unique ideology.'
I am not sure who you are referring to, or why you are using vague references to history, geography and ideology but I won't press you on it as it is obvious that the circle is complete.
I leave you with full marks for defending your point of view, no matter how unpalatable it has been to me. I wish you well.
Every Pakistani has a right to give his or her input to the debate about Pakistan's future and we will do well not to preclude an opinions.
saladin89
Member
@stingingnettle
No country is bad, it is the people who make it bad or good. Pakistan however has corrupt hukumran leading us, N$, Mr10% and Mr Don who are all zaalim leaders. Enough said that should tell give u enough evidence what Pakistan is all about.
History of Pakistan started with bloodshed, then after that we went wrong somewhere. You mentioned history brother, but could u explain what kind of history our nation has had, apart from corrupt leaders leading us, then what happened concerning bangladeshi people. A country like Japan got bombarded with bombs and also with hiroshima nagasaki but they picked themselves up.
We are a nation of liars and fraudsters where the people have chosen zaalim leaders to rule them, who are to be blamed the people who supported this liars or the hukumran themselves. Personally I blame our people for all this mess, they supported them and now Pakistan is paying the price.
Justice is more or less non-existent, poor people lying on the streets and we just walk by them as if they are not there, we are full of greed lies and just complete utter crap talking.
We are on the brink of disaster brother, finacially we have hardly any money left, we are begging to the IMF and US for aid, murders looting and all kinds of crimes are taking place in Pakistan. A rape takes place in our cities, and we are sitting at home like sheep, our hukumran robbing us, and we sit at home like sheep, RD gets released we are sitting at home like sheep. It is a nation of behar bakhrian brother. We talk big but we are being laughed at by other nations. We dream about Kashmir, but we cannot give our own people rights in our own cities, the police are corrupt as ever, blood sucking parasites that's what they are.
The US is trying to de-stabalize us, and to counter attack this we have nothing. This is nation that does not know where to go, like zombies walking around and crap talking.
What history do we have????
Unique ideology???
saladin89, I'm stupid, I just do not get it. You write pretty copiously about Pakistani above and fail to say the least positive word about our country. What hisotry do we have? That of a very young nation which is only just about coming to grips with the immense gift of existence it was given. A nation born out of bloodshed, true enough, for which many thanks to that "monster of manipulation" (the words of a British novelist, Tim Parks), Mahatama Gandhi, a nation with a splendid, hard-working population which laboured day and night to build up the country from scratch. Those were the heroic days of Pakistan. Today, we have become simply a Third-World country, adoring the gods of neo-colonialism, rich beyond our wildest dreams at the time of inception and corrupt to the core as regards the "higher" classes, both middle and upper. But all these I consider the birth pangs of history. Nothing more, nothing less. Our veritable masters are not our Zardaris and Co. They are those operating out of the capitals of the west. Their days are numbered and so are those of our own puppets.
As for our ideology, why should you even ask? It is the backbone of this nation, Islam in all its splendour and simplicity which will someday once again be practised by us in the way it was meant to be.
stingingnettle, very handsome goodbye piece you wrote to me. Thank you very much. Don't get me wrong. I didn't mean to say we were never going to discuss anything ever again, simply that as regards the destiny of our own country we were arguing from two corners alien to one another, with diametrically opposed definitions of basic concepts. East and West cannot meet in this way, can they? Anyway, we might yet find topics we could profitably tackle in tranquillity.
stingingnettle
Member
Mirza Ghalib
You are quite right, we are diametrically opposite in our fundamentals and that is alright. I am sure we will meet again in some other thread of common interest and exchange views again and perhaps I might even be able to dislocate words into meanings. For now I leave you with;
You write:
"As for our ideology, why should you even ask? It is the backbone of this nation, Islam in all its splendour and simplicity which will someday once again be practised by us in the way it was meant to be."
This polemic has been with us for the past 40 years or so and I am afraid it has run its course. Pakistan was created to protect a minority and hence it was reasonable expectation that all minorities within Pakistan will be protected. This has not happened because of the paralysing nostalgia we suffer from. I am not sure what to call the people who cram the mosques every Friday in Pakistan, are they not muslims? Well if they are not, then what is the fuss about, why are we trying to harken to a time and place that is not in the heart of the people. No more sweet talk of the good old days, no more amnesia and certainly no more lip service. Pakistan is a country for everyone, not just muslims.
saladin89
You write:
'The US is trying to de-stabalize us, and to counter attack this we have nothing.'
We are doing a brilliant job of destabalising Pakistan ourselves. We just don't have the integrity or honesty to admit it. You make some bitter but pertinent and incisive points. I feel you are holding a mirror to our faces.
So is there no hope? This is where I diverge from you; change is not inevitable but we have to make it happen. I have trust and hope in our youth who will want a better life for themselves and their children and they will bring about a tolerant and just Pakistan where meritocracy is the norm not the exception.
Abdul Rahman
Member
Pakistan is a country for everyone, not just muslims. For how many years now ~60?
The entire sub continent was for everyone too for over 1000 years during Muslim rule. Still the overwhelming majority is non-Muslims. So what's your point.
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