PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Why Nationalism/Patriotism is Haram

(83 posts)
  1. usman1423
    member

    Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
    - George Bernard Shaw

    As 14th August approaches, we see much talk of nationalism and patriotisim.

    As muslims, its vitall for us, that we explain to everyone, why Islam considers nationalism haram.

    Islam, advocates unity of muslim ummah, One Land, One State, One Khilafah.

    Also, we need to reflect, that alot of muslims gave their lives for Islam, when Pakistan was created. However, unfortunately there wasnt a robust plan for implemenation of Shariah

    Today as we aspire for the establishment of Khilafah, we should endevour to learn the intricate details of Islamic Systems, as well as the methodology of establishing an Islamic state via political and intellectual, non-violent movement.

    Posted 2 years ago on 14 Aug 2009 21:27 #
  2. misalligned
    Member

    prove to me its haram. I consider haram what has been declaired by Allah swt and his messenger as haram. If you will bring something from yourself and call it haram i will never believe in you. calling every thing as haram become a fashion in mullas life

    Posted 2 years ago on 14 Aug 2009 23:08 #
  3. @usman1423
    religious debates such as haram/halal are not favoured at the forum till further notice by the admin pkpolitics. It is advised that this thread should not turn into a halal/haram debate otherwise it will be closed. Sorry for the disappointment this may cause but this decision has been taken by the administration to revert pkpolitics back to pkpolitics from pkreligion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 14 Aug 2009 23:17 #
  4. Nationalism can be used eventually into the concept of unification of UMMAH! but people insist that they will fly though currently they can't walk properly!

    Posted 2 years ago on 14 Aug 2009 23:20 #
  5. chechen
    Member

    netengr posted this poem in anothe rthread. Allama is not authority on halal/haraam but didn't he said it is new idol in the temple?

    Allama Iqbal

    In taza khudaon main baRa sab se watan hai
    Jo pairhan iss ka hai, woh mazhab ka kafan hai

    Yeh bott keh tarasheeda-e-tahzeeb-i-navi hai
    Gharat gar-e-khashan-e-deen-i-nabawi hai

    Baazu tira tawheed ki quwwat se qawi hai
    Islam tira dais he, tu Mustafawi hai!

    Nazzara-e-deerana zamanay ko dikha dai
    Ai Mustafawi, khaak main iss but to mila dai

    Ho qaid-maqaami to nateeja hai tabahi
    Rah bahar main azad-e-watan, soorat-e-maahi

    Hai tark-e-watan sunnat-e-Mahboob-e-Ilaahi
    Dai tu bhi nabuwwat ki sadaqat peh gawahi

    Guftaar-e-siyasat main watan aur hi kuch hai
    Irshaad-e-nabuwwat main watan aur hi kuch hai

    Aqwaam-e-jahan main hai raqabat, to issi sai
    Taskheer hai maqsood-e-tijarat, to issi sai

    Khaali hai sadaqat sai siyasat, to issi sai
    Kamzor ka ghar hota hai gharat, to issi sai

    Aqwam main makhlooq-e-khuda bat-ti hai iss sai
    Qaumeat islam ki jaR kat-ti hai iss sai

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 0:17 #
  6. shahzad1924
    member

    im not very fond of poetry but this piece here is superb.

    BTW, just came across this hadith.

    "...people should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (SWT) will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (feces)." [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 2:09 #
  7. Anonymous

    Well said Khan_Sahib.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 4:01 #
  8. amin1924
    member

    Nationalism has no boundaries. For example in 1948 almost whole muslim nation responded to Palestinian cause and sent help.

    By 1960s this conflict was maneuvered in way that it reduced to an Arab/Israel conflict.

    By 70s/80s it further reduced to Palestine/Israel conflict.

    By 90s it further reduced to PLO/Israel conflict and that is when yasser arafat started making deals.

    Similarly India was divided based on ideology that Muslims are a distinct nation. That is why even those politicians in Muslim majority areas who were always pro congress were forced to give vote for Pakistan.

    Now we are Baloch, Pashtoon, Panjabi, Sindhi..etc (siraiki, kashmiri, potohari, mohajar..etc)

    Then you take Baloch and can find so many sub-nations, they use word 'qaom' for their tribes. Similarly it can be done for others.

    This has no boundaries, only thing that can bring us all together is same call of 1920s and 1940s. To leave our nation/ethnicity a side and get identified by our ideology which is common in all!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 4:32 #
  9. amin1924
    member

    Nationalism is a dirty tool of colonialists. They are always up looking for fine lines to carve up new identities to serve their interests...same old same... divide and conquer!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 4:38 #
  10. talalkhan
    Member

    The concept of Umma is too idealistic.In the hostel of Quaid-e Azam University Islamabad the Saraiki,Pushtoon, Punjabi students are living,eating sleeping, on the basis of laguage, culture and so on. How the muslims of different countries can assimlate?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 7:43 #
  11. amin1924
    member

    Talal,

    Regarding

    How the muslims of different countries can assimlate?

    Just as they do in the masjid during prayers!

    Just like it happened in the movements of 1920s & 1940s.

    What all brings them together is the ideology of Islam!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 7:52 #
  12. amin1924
    member

    Talal,

    That is why we say that Pakistan can capture India but India can never capture Pakistan!

    Pakistani people are bound together by imaan, where as India is so much divided in castes, ethnicities and bias against each other. There hindutva has failed, didn't you see recent elections? BJP is considering to change there line/tone!

    I have seen how marathi hates assami, how andra hates tamilian, how bihari hates marathi etc etc they just cant bare each other.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 8:17 #
  13. IJay
    member

    who said its haram i can even show saudi mufti fatwa on this!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 8:19 #
  14. talalkhan
    Member

    jjkhan

    A peon and officer say prayers together in mosque. But do the boss sit diwn with the peon in the office? No.The difference is like Mutta and marriage.Short term vs long term.Movements are also temporary phases like 1920s and 1940s..
    Indians help Indians in foreign countries,whereas Pakistanis pull legs of each other.Do you think Baluchis love punjabis? What abt East Pakistanis who hated West Pakistanis? Mainly due to economic and linguistic disparities.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 9:02 #
  15. amin1924
    member

    Talal Khan,

    So you agree that there is an idea that brings peon & officer together at some place!

    It is not about long term or short term, it is about existence of a bond, an ideology that stitches everyone together into an iron wall! Prayer is one action for which everyone comes until the action is totally fulfilled. So the bond until completion of action is important, not the duration of prayer.

    Don't generalize political conflicts into ethnic conflict.

    Bengal conflict was purely political one that was maneuvered into separation movement!

    Similarly other political issues have nothing to do with baloch not liking punjabi or vice versa... they all love each other!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 9:13 #
  16. Ifzal
    Member

    whenever we talk about muslim ummah and unity. we always forget that these difference which Talal and other guys are pointing out are because of the not properly following Islam in its true spirit. Otherwise the mohajirs of Makkah had never been embraced by the locals of madina. This is a classic example for us. Rather don't go that far in the past. Just look at the example of Hajj. Wat does it tells u. I think u guys are more knowledgable than me. so think over it.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 9:40 #
  17. talalkhan
    Member

    In hajj, people show maximum selfishness.The Sudanese Ladies hold their hands and move in such a way that many old people have been injured.There have been stampedes when the people were throwing stones towards Shaitan.
    The differences are not political only.Even there were schisms during Khilafat.Differences with Arabi and Ajmi remained in practical life.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 9:49 #
  18. Ifzal
    Member

    There u go. again in ur point I can see that we are not practical muslims. woh jazba e qurbani, woh khalos, sincerity. Do we do all these without involving our personal interests? We all do only those things which we believe is beneficail for our personal sake and not for anyone else. Where is Haqooqul Ibad. and let me say this that Haqoodul Ibad has the prioraty over Haqooq Allah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 10:00 #
  19. sasherwani
    Members

    To Usman,

    First of all "lol"

    As per the quote you gave.."Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."..

    All I can say is my country might not be superior to all other countries but I love Pakistan and patriotism is all about loving your country and trying to make it better by charity, volunteer work, educating it, planting trees or whatever you can do to make it a better place to live. No George Bernard can make me change my mind..period!

    P.S. Khilafat will never prevail in Pakistan.. stop dreaming and do some work.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 10:03 #
  20. amin1924
    member

    Talal Khan,

    You are just making vague and irrelevant references. The point is that there are numerous actions in our daily life which bond different people together! Prayers, Hajj, Zakat are just few to give you idea that how muslims get united under one banner!

    You don't see saudi having their own hajj or brunai having their own prayer? They are all united on these foundations!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 10:06 #
  21. talalkhan
    Member

    I am forced to salute that genius brain which brain- washed our people to believe in these ideals,which are not achievable.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 10:45 #
  22. Ifzal
    Member

    That is wat u r for in this world dude. I suggest u to sit alone for a while and ask urself a question that wat r u here for in this world? This world is a test and those who passes the test will be sent of jannat. If this task was not achievable then how come the companions of Prophet (SAW) achieved it? Because they had the will and belief on thier self. Once u take a step forward in the way of Allah, Allah will come two steps forward to u. Its Allah who makes the difficulties easier.

    One more thing worth noting dude. The harder the task the greater the reward. agar ye asan kam hota to phir jannat ki kia zaroorat thi? This is the test. Ur intentions should be good and leave the rest to Allah. He will reward u in this world and in the hereafter. Don't let these non believers' ideas takeover ur mind. free urself.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 11:24 #
  23. @talal khan
    'I am forced to salute that genius brain which brain- washed our people to believe in these ideals,which are not achievable.'
    ============================================================
    pls explain what exactly do you mean by posting this?

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 12:47 #
  24. shikra
    Blocked

    Why the Muslims of India demanded for the creation of Pakistan, where the concept of Territorial Nationalism was Un-Islamic?
    This debate could generate so many questions and contradictions.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 12:49 #
  25. amin1924
    member

    Shikra,

    The reason why Muslims in India demanded division of sub-continent is agreed upon, unless you have a new one?

    By the way when Muslims in India were demanding division of sub-continent, they really didn't know that they would get this area known as Pakistan. People were expecting much much bigger Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 13:31 #
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    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 13:46 #
  27. usman1423
    member

    Many Muslims today around the world have fallen into the trap of nationalism. It is easy to fall into this trap because of the wonderful slogans that people can easily make up to promote nationalism. They convince the Muslim that their first duty is to their "nation", their "people", based on geographic, ethnic or linguistic borders. This clearly contradicts Islamic teachings, and goes against the very soul and core of Islam.

    While nationalism tries to group people based on geography, language, ethnicity or tribal ties, Islam groups people based on their belief and value system, based on their ideology.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 13:49 #
  28. usman1423
    member

    There are many sayings of the prophet that point to the prohibition of nationalism and racism, the following are some examples:

    It is narrated by Abu Da'wud that the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said: "He is not one us who calls for Asabiyyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights forAsabiyyah or who dies for `Asabiyyah."

    And in another Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) referring to nationalism, racism, and patriotism said: "Leave it, it is rotten." [Muslim and Bukhari].

    In the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said: "He who calls for `Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father's genitals."

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:18 #
  29. chechen
    Member

    IJAY says Saudi scholar supports nation state. ofcourse these "palace" scholars have nothing else to do than to support the rulers who were installed by British. Who made the boundary between Saudi and Kuwait, Saudi and Iraq, Saudi and Jordan, Oman, Yemen, UAE? They were not scholars, ordinary Muslims but British.

    They should have been the first one to condemn natinalism. They even celebrate national day which is not correct according to what they suppose to follow.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:21 #
  30. Ifzal
    Member

    @usman: Brother jang e khandaq mey khandaqain q khodi gayi thi? s lye k madina ko bachaya ja sakay because that was the muslim state at that time. I agree with the concept of ummah but national boundries does exist as well and thats the reality.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:22 #
  31. @all
    What is the actual discussion about? Nationalism and Patriotism are in themselves quite extensive!

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:26 #
  32. Patriotism as Herman Goering (a NAZI) said:
    Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.

    That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:37 #
  33. shikra
    Blocked

    Would some one like to comment where Allam Iqbal wrote:

    sare jahan se achha hindustan hamara
    hum bulbalen hain is ki ye gulsitan hamara

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:42 #
  34. talalkhan
    Member

    Unfortunately,Semirza,people are duped by emotional propaganda,like the concept of Umma,which is very attractive but unrealisable.I have seen abroad,people have stronger bond ,if they share common language.NORTH INDIAN STUDENTS IN USA in my institution were more friendly with Pakistanis as compared to South Indians.Saudis mixed more with lebanese christians as compared with non arabic speaking Muslims. Culture is stronger force than religion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:52 #
  35. @talal khan
    You have a point here. Language certainly acts as a bridge.

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 14:58 #
  36. usman1423
    member

    the messenger of Allah called upon all Muslims to be united, regardless of ethnicity, race, language or tribe. The following are some examples:

    The Messenger of Allah (saaw) said: "The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever." [Muslim].

    And: "The faithful are like one man: if his eyes suffers, his whole body suffers." [Muslim].

    And: "An Arab is no better than a non-Arab. In return, a non-Arab is no better than an Arab. A red raced man was not better than a black one except in piety. Mankind are all Adam's children and Adam was created out of clay." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abu Musa].

    Muslims, whether they are of Chinese, African, European or Asian origin, are one Ummah and they cannot be separated from each other. No tribal ties should ever break their unity.

    Furthermore, Allah (swt), says: "The Faithful are but brothers..." [Surah Al-Hujurat (49): ayah 10].

    And the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said: "The Faithful are to one another like [parts of] a building - each part strengthening the others."

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 16:40 #
  37. misalligned
    Member

    I know all you could do is to come up with the hadith of Asabiyyah. But even this hadith does not proves Nationalism is haram. Asabiyyah is about taking pride of tribalism, like in pakistan if what we do when we say he is Moochi, Kumhaar and we are malik or Khaan etc. Yes i agree that this is something which was unliked by Prophet PBUH but even this is not stated clearcut haram and our half cooked mulla started beating the drum that every thing is haram. Tomorrow someone will come up saying even this air is haram so stop breating. Go get a lifee buddy

    Posted 2 years ago on 15 Aug 2009 21:42 #
  38. shahzad1924
    member

    "He is not one of us who calls for asabiyyah or who fights for asabiyyah or who dies for asabiyyah." Abu Dawood

    "he is not one of us" is talab-e-jazim (definite request). so, asabiyyah is haram

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Aug 2009 1:38 #
  39. zia m
    Member

    Nationalism and Patriotism are two different things.

    "The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war."
    above quote is from late Sydny Harris.
    Now all religions claim to have a monoply on truth,a sign of arrogance i would say.And all of them(religions) blindly follow their belief systems.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Aug 2009 4:53 #
  40. amin1924
    member

    Zia M,

    After rational realization of Allah swt, Muhammad pbuh, and Qur'an we follow 'blindly' what guidance comes from these sources.

    Right, we don't judge above from materialistic point of view in terms of benefit/loss because each view point has its own definition of benefit/loss.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Aug 2009 5:04 #
  41. zia m
    Member

    No problem.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Aug 2009 5:30 #
  42. usman1423
    member

    Allah (swt), says: "The Faithful are but brothers..." [Surah Al-Hujurat (49): ayah 10].

    And the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said: "The Faithful are to one another like [parts of] a building - each part strengthening the others."

    And: "Every Muslim is a brother to a Muslim, neither wronging him nor allowing him to be wronged. And if anyone helps his brother in need, Allah will help him in his own need; and if anyone removes a calamity from [another] Muslim, Allah will remove from him some of the calamities of the Day of Resurrection; and if anyone shields [another] Muslim from disgrace, Allah will shield him from the disgrace on the Day of Resurrection." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abd Allah ibnUmar].

    Therefore, Muslims should be very aware of the dangers of nationalism and racism, and of the strong denunciation of these concepts by Allah and his messenger. Muslims are one Ummah, and nothing should divide the Ummah into separate states as this is not allowed by Islam.

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Aug 2009 7:40 #
  43. DeadlyHonest
    member

    As other nations joined hands for common currency and visa free borders.But we muslims already have this concept to be UMMA.
    Looking at ground facts every land have some thing different to share with others or export..
    This is natural division of resources and have a caution to share or have the things which you are lacking or have excessives.
    Us is a combination of so many countries to be able to develop themselves in a alone super power.

    Boundaries of patriotism ends where the boundaries of UMMAH starts....
    They have the things to share from one state to the other.
    In current situation china,russia,india trying to unite and answer the chanllenges towards their survival..
    this is not only a concept from ISLAM but also the need of the day to act as UMMAH rather than Isolated in the boundary of nationalism...
    Lawrence of Arabis did teach the same to the Arabs against Khilafate Usmania and due to this agents network Arabs being trapped and gone against Turky Khlifate Usmania..
    You must appreciate that muslims after long sufferings have learned some thing very correct from their History and Dirty Tricks used against them by others..
    So at this time they have their account credited with a break of a USSR and now US is under process to be credited.
    Excellent use of war politics,learning from previous history and using the flaws created due to national interests,between countries around the globe another victory against Big Evil is their,too close..

    Posted 2 years ago on 16 Aug 2009 8:09 #
  44. waqartaurus
    Members

    non issue to me. if being pakistani is so haram to you, then go find some other place. no logic at all.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 11:55 #
  45. shahzad1924
    member

    and would you care to explain the "logic" behind the creation of Pakistan, a nation state, when nation states are not allowed in Islam?

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 11:58 #
  46. who says patriotism is Haram?

    if are talking about Iqbal ?
    who said
    Inn Taza Khudaon Mein Bara Subse Watan Hay
    Jo Parahan Isska Hay wohh Millat ka kafan hay

    that was a total different tangent of philosophy.

    i think just opposite ,if there is no millat ,then at least love your own country .

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 12:09 #
  47. shahzad1924
    member

    patriotism is an animalistic bond. it is a weak bond which becomes evident when the land is under threat. frankly, there is nothing to talk about it.

    the only correct bond is the one which is based on an ideological basis. and the only correct ideological bond is that of Islam because Islam is the only correct ideology.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 12:21 #
  48. i think....
    Patriotism is the first step ...
    u need to feel connected with your culture ,language ,identity and that all encompasses country .

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 12:27 #
  49. Red-Scorpion
    Blocked

    @shahzad1924

    Please advise me what should an Indian Muslim serving in army do if there's a war between Indo-Pak ??
    BTW Iran and Iraq fought a war for around eight years, why do you think soldiers of these countries laid their lives ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 12:29 #
  50. shahzad1924
    member

    language? that has already created many problems. ill just give you some hints....karachi....MQM....

    and the bond based on culture is also a very weak one. in punjab, at every 300kms, there is a new culture, a new language. how would you keep everyone as one whole with a bond based on culture.

    i agree with identity if you are talking about our identity as a Muslim. the rest are all weak bonds. they cannot keep people together.

    Posted 2 years ago on 17 Aug 2009 12:32 #

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