Silence of the Lambs

Silence of the Lambs
By Samad Khurram

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Back in 2002, I was returning from Friday prayers when I saw an unusual gathering of singing and quasi-dancing Mullahs. Unusual because I had always assumed Mullahs to be against all types of Kuffar (Art). The amused crowd were listening to chants of “Taliban aa gayay, Taliban aa gayay”. I smirked. As if! Pakistan is a nuclear country with the seventh largest army. We’re safe.

The Mullahs’ songs have been answered – the Taliban indeed are coming. And with them the cowards are bringing a lifestyle that destroys everything Pakistan and Islam.

Oh no. Wait! This guy is on the paycheck of those who are trying to break Pakistan. Taliban are heroes, its America which is wrong. Yes, this is the typical self defense mechanism coming to full force. Having nothing to lose, and having been already declared a CIA agent earlier in life I suppose I’ll continue. Continuing with a genuine fear, that these words are falling on either deaf or hostile ears. Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s Pakistan is over if all this chaos continues.

Jinnah’s Pakistan is a dream gone wrong. Perhaps if he knew that the dreamland for living in peace, harmony, religious tolerance and freedom was going to become arena for public flogging where laughs of sadist barbarians and the screams of minors will echo, he would not have decided on creating it. Had he known that there would be more suicide bombs in his country than any other place in the world, where fundos would go around the cities threatening women to become religious, where school children would have to undergo security protocols as if they were in a war zone, would he have even bothered to work for the green and white?

Still, Pakistan is not what we worry about. All our esteemed talk shows chatter on is whether there should be 17th Amendment or not and on the statements by America and India. Yes, American drones and Indian statements are a threat to our sovereignty. Yes, the balance of power is important. But even when the Taliban have killed more people than India, American Drones or our tyrant rulers, taken over more of our land and have made us feel more unsafe than anyone else in the past thirty years? What other definition of sovereignty is there than protection of lives and property of people, maintaining writ of the state across the territory and having people feel secured? Why can we have some programs discussing the atrocities of the Taliban, the acts of terror that they do and how they have destroyed Pakistan?

No, it’s the “Hindu Zionists” (notice the contradiction?) working on a CIA sponsored conspiracy to break Pakistan. There are the good Taliban who fought the Kuffar off and the real issue is the CIA. Arguably everyone has all the time in the world to devise every action we do, plan it to perfection and then make the evidence of their involvement disappear. Are we really that important for the rest of the world to worry about when they have their own countries and problems to tend to? Even if the Taliban are foreign funded should does that not mean we should double our efforts? Remember when India briefly occupied few territories near Lahore in 1965 how the whole country ran to defend it? My grandfather had stories of people going with sticks to support the army. I am afraid I will not have any such stories of patriotic resistance to tell anyone when another enemy has taken control of a fourth of NWFP and roughly one twentieth of Pakistan. Perhaps we should ban “Yeh watan tumhara hai, tum ho pasban is kay” for it seems no one really care about Pakistan, except the Zionist Hindus of course.

But no, remember the glorious days of the Caliphs? Remember the great Pakistani Fauj, who under the Ameer-ul-Momineen, Zia –ul – Haq, which crushed the Russians? This is only a plan to make America taste the same fate! Yes thank you Zaid Hamid. For a nation which already lives in denial, your conspiracy theories are all we need to turn us completely schizophrenic. Army is great and it will deal with any task assigned to it. More of the same comes from everyone turning patriotic everywhere. This automatic knee-jerk mechanism has seeped in our blood and shut off our brains.

For the love of God can anyone explain me why the great Army of Allah, whose laurels we sing from the day we are born, has still not been able to jam radio stations pouring terror in Swat? Have the core commanders not even tried asking the army engineers how radios work and how easy it is jam them without even having to be in the line of fire? Can they not even figure out if they only played “Who let the Dogs out” at the frequencies the Taliban use it would stop this vitriol? Why is it that these Taliban leaders can appear before journalists in broad daylight and roam freely without any trouble even when they claim responsibility of attacking Pakistanis across the country?

Perhaps the real question I should ask is why do I even care? When I took time off from Harvard to be part of the lawyers’ movement I had seen a ray of hope. There were concerned citizens and lawyers who stood for what was right no matter what the consequences. We fought for a principle and won with the hope that things will slowly improve. Today the very judges we had faith in released the cleric of Lal Mosque whose crimes everyone knows about. If the judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were recorded on TV perhaps it does explain why Taliban are spreading like an incurable cancer. Imagine who would be hanging in “khooni chowk” had Mullana Abdul Aziz kidnapped a few Taliban officials or fought against them and killed their men?

Yet when you think all’s over, somehow someone comes up. Someone whose name keeps your head from drowning. Perhaps this sick torture has to be long and painful where we chase mirages of oasis, never to really reach their. Perhaps for all the atrocities we have committed to our own people require us to be made an example of so no other nation follows our path. Why do ray of hopes like Afzal Khan, who has socked it up to Taliban and refused to be removed from Swat alive, appear every now and then? However he stands to die in the rain. Alone. Can anyone please name one Pakistani leader who has said the same? Forget that has anyone Pakistani leader said that he will go and get the Taliban to give up their arms? Will the real leader who can get rid of these monsters stand up? Imran Khan? Qazi? Nawaz Sharif? This silence is criminal!

What’s worse that these leaders of ours have unanimously approved a state within a state run, which is not accountable to anyone, absolves all crimes of the Taliban and gives a safe haven to those who are there to kill us? What sort of a Nizam-e-Nonsense is this when no one even tried to debate the issue properly and even consider for a second that giving blanket amnesty to the Taliban might not, even if it be infinitesimal, the right thing to do? No for the politicians this does not matter. All they are interesting in mudslinging at each other and more ministries. Our media and sheeple are busy devouring the latest gossip while Pakistan burns.

But unlike what people think it will not be because of Zardari’s corruption or Gilani’s incompetence or Salman Taseer’s whiskies. We have survived them in the past, and so we’ll do again. However any country that has fallen to the Taliban has never recovered. The Taliban are here to stay and unless we stand up against them in every possible way Pakistan will be lost – for good! It will be the silence of the lambs which destroys us. You will be responsible if Pakistan fails.

The writer is a student at Harvard University and turned down an award from the US ambassador as a mark of protest against killings of Pakistani soldiers by US drone attacks.

Shorter Version of this appeared in The News on Monday, April 20
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368 thoughts on “Silence of the Lambs

  1. You are 100% on target. Silence from Imran Khan, Qazi, and Nawaz Sharif etc is criminal. I am a supporter of PML(N) and Ayaz Amir is my favorite writer. They are not feeling the gravity of the situation and still have a soft corner for these Talibans.

    I wonder what the Taliban brigade on this forum will call you as you have strong anti-US credentials by snubbing US ambassador.

  2. A very frustrated article with some good things, but misses many facts:

    – Taliban is different than followers of Tehreek-e-Nifaaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi. It would be interesting to know writer’s views on the Taliban thread. It has become a fashion to blame everything on Taliban just like Altaf Hussain does on daily basis.

    – Swat and Malakand is part of PATA, and it has constitutional rights to have their own system as per wishes of their residents.

    – Nizaam-e-Adl Regulation was written 10 years ago.

    – Both Nawaz Sharif and Imran Khan have specifically said about the reasons that we are not in danger of Talibanization. Some reasons have been given in details by Rana Sanaullah in last Off the Record.

    – 50,000 Swatis gather in favor of TNSM and Nizaam-e-Adl. Can you bring more than 50,000 against TNSM?

  3. @Rasheed
    It is really a pathetic day in our lives that our government is getting ‘deadlines’ from leader of the Nazis in Pakistan. No one denies that this man has a back, as no one denied Hitler his Aryan army. This is just history unfolding itself again, and Hitler is replaced with Sufi. Rather than blond hair and blue eyes, we have turbans and long beards, but the outcome seems to be very very similar.
    Our government did not think this deal through, as Qazi courts have been announced to be above Supreme Court, remember the one which we gave our blood to for over 1 and a half year, and never fight back with literal means? While all along the answer was as simple as slaughtering a few innocents and burning girl schools and hanging ‘traitors’ without solid proof. Khooni chawk was the answer to the million dollar question.
    And then another slap in our face, when Sufi said what is done in the past is the past. The murderers will be given amnesty. And then Sufi talks about sending lashkars across the border to help his Afghan counterparts. I am sure we are all against the drone attacks, but by accepting this mumbling fool we are asking for a bombardment which Iraq and Afghanistan has never ever witnessed. Then our brothers in Palestine will be making prayers for us and sending us some of their Qassam Rockets. After all, our nukes are the main target and that target is so much closer with the backwardness of these beardos.
    Also, who is going to be stopping these fuxers? Who is giving the insurance that these beardos will just stick to Swat? What about Baitullah? What about Fazlullah? Wouldn’t they want to be supreme leaders of one-twelfth of Pakistan too?

  4. Samad,
    You have made a few good point but the very fact that many of us are constantly ignoring is that the Taliban have simply fill the vacuum which has been created by the horrific failure of the Pakistani state appratus over the last 60 years or so.
    Nearly 40 years ago we have denied justice to the people of then East Pakistan and we have lost half of Pakistan. Today the same story has been replayed in Balochistan and we are almost on the verge of loosing our most resourceful province. The situation in NWFP is far more complex. The Pakistani state and it’s machinery has completely let down the pushtoons there and the Taliban popped in to fill the vacuum.
    Additionally, I would like to make another important but often ignored point here. The original sources of Islam ie AlQuran and AlHadith are equally accessible to you and me as they are for anybody else or for that matter for Sufi Mohammed et all. When was the last we have seriously set aside some time to enlighten ourselves as to what guidance these sources provide to the issues of our daily lives in the modern world?
    Islam is not limited to the rituals of Salat or Fasting etc but it provides robust solutions to the practical issues which concerns the lives of common man. We have left the playing field open for the likes of Taliban to come up with their own interpretation of islam which infact is a fusion of their tribal culture with some teachings of islam. So why is the hue and cry now? If it were not for the unwillingness of the educated middle class masses of Pakistan to lead from the front and to seek knowledge themselves and then educated the less previliged, Taliban would never be able to become the Godfathers.
    So, Samad and all my friends out there are only two choices:
    1- Either lead from the front and take the advantage of interpreting the Islam from the hands of Taliban by making a concious effort to learn the basics of The Deen ourselves OR
    2- Welcome To The Land of Taliban

    Wasalam,
    Asif

  5. @qali88,

    The PATA area joined Pakistan in 60s on promises that they will be allowed to run by their own laws. They have been protesting from 20 years and governments has been repetitively breaking their promises.

    Would it have been better that this regulation was accepted as their wishes long time ago before their “Bloody Long March”?

    Secondly, we put our own corrupt police and courts for them for so many years which did not impress them. At least if we could have given them something better for so many years, their own people would be standing on our side and speaking against TNSM.

  6. Also, who remember Sufi Muhammad’s great triumphs in 2001? Remember the time when he went on ‘Jihad-i-Afghanistan’ along with thousands of his supporters. All of whom were killed and Sufi came running back and begged Musharaf to arrest him? Cause the Americans and the families of the thousands he got slaughtered in Afghanistan were after him.

    “He returned and went quietly into incarceration, without making any fuss about it. He is a shrewd man and knows that while in prison he would not have to answer questions of hundreds of anxious families whose near and dear ones he took along to Afghanistan and who are still unaccounted for.”

    http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/29/fea.htm#2

    This is the one they call the new Chancellor of Pakistan?

    http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/28/top6.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/31/nat19.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/31/nat27.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/02/top13.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/02/nat26.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/03/top16.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/23/nat18.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/06/nat23.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/14/nat12.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2002/04/27/local33.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2002/05/13/nat7.htm
    http://www.dawn.com/2007/11/18/ed.htm#2

    search more – TNSM site:dawn.com or
    . . . . . . . . – TNSM site:thenews.com.pk

  7. Samad Khurram is right on. I agree with him Taliban doesn’t represnt that right wing that Imran, Nawaz Sharif or JI represents. Taliban is doing all these brutalities in the name of religion. Taliban has killed BB, attaked Sherpow, Asfandyar and many other politiians. Now rest of the main stream politicians are afraid to come out openly against them.

    I was talking to my cousin back home who is a life long member of JI. He said he has a soft corner for Osama, Taliban and religious forces but these suside missions especially through kids is beyond any religion or humanity. He doesn’t like America but that doesn’t mean you have to pick America and Taliban. There are many choices in between. Between even America and Taliban please choose the lesser evil. I don’t agree with religious right but I respect with their philosphies. I am ok with BJP. Republicans, PMLN, JI, JUI etc but Taliban are not religious right. They do not have any place inpolitical frame work. They are worst kind of criminals. Even crimnials and stone hearted serical killers don’t do what Taliban do with their political opponents and innocent civilians and military personnel. I can understand why some people try to defend Taliban but please wake up…Taliban doesn’t represnt any religion. They have absolutely no place in any society.

  8. @qali88,

    Very true and Sufi should been the first one to die in Afghanistan.

    But the same Sufi and his followers would be declared as Mujahideen instead of terrorists in case Russia had attacked Afghanistan in 2001.

  9. @Rasheed
    I agree with you 100% that the incompetency of our government has lead to these dramatic events. However, our government could have thought about it more this time around at least. How many hours were spent on this bill in the parliament? Almost everyone seemed to be waiting to sign it the second they had the copy in their hands. Rash decisions do not mean good decisions, especially when there are two other fuxers waiting to do the same thing. I do not see any good outcome from this accord, as each and every point will be violated in a matter of days and 2 to 3 points have already been violated. On top of that Chancellor Sufi Muhammad has ordered the government to take the courts and the lawyers and the police away and given a deadline. Or else? This is exactly the time of incompetence which has led us to this point and being even more incompetent and limp-dik isn’t going to help us.
    Also, what is Sufi gonna be doing about all the people who voted against this Adal-e-Nonsense? He already called them kaafirs, so I guess it isn’t see far to see him to wage his holy war against these infidels. Maybe this time he will not run straight to the nearest jail.

  10. Samad,

    excellent article man. I feel the same way as you. we’re sleepwalking into a huge, huge crisis. and yet the attitude of our political parties, the media, army etc remains absolutely criminal. I don’t see how the likes of Nawaz Sharif, Imran Khan, etc, can call themselves political leaders when they haven’t even articulated themselves once on where they stand on this Taliban menace…

    I understand they don’t want to offend the right wing vote bank by being seen as pro-American (as is obvious by this forum) but ffs take a bloody stand. you can’t hedge everything. this is a real crisis. if the Taliban are patriots, then why do they break the laws of the country? if they’re a foreign funded conspiracy, then why are we not doubling our efforts to kill this cancer?

    and I share your disappointment. it is quite a roller coaster ride being a Pakistani. I was on top of the moon when the judiciary movement started. I was also angry that the CJ was sidelined but happy because people finally cared. then, there were ups (the first restoration) and downs (the Nov 3 martial law) but I thought that we had been awakened. but apparently not!

    lastly, dude, you better be going into politics. I want to vote for you. keep up the great work. you’re the voice of many, many people. now, prepare to be called a baboo/liberal fascist/kaafir/RAW agent/CIA agent… maybe you turned down that award from Anne Patterson as part of a well designed conspiracy too? 🙂

  11. It is going to be Jinnah vs. Taliban and other Mullahs..

    Quoting from an article in ‘Dawn.

    AUGUST 11, 1947, in the constituent assembly of Pakistan at Karachi: “You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.” — Founder and maker of Pakistan Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

    February 19, 1948, a broadcast to the people of Australia: “But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.” — Jinnah.

    Later in February 1948, a broadcast to the people of the US: “In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.” — Jinnah.

    DEMOCRACRATIC SYSTEM IS UN-ISLAMIC

    Sufi Mohammed in the same ‘Jalsa’ pictured above declared the following

    ”MINGORA: While addressing a large rally here on Sunday, Chief of the Tehreek Nifaz-e-Shariat, Maulana Sufi Mohammed said that the movement for the implementation of Sharia began in 1994.
    ‘The fifteen year struggle of the TNSM for the implementation of Sharia in Malakand is now bearing results,’ the Chief of the Tehreek Nifaz-e-Shariat said.

    He said the democratic system is an un-Islamic one and the judicial system of Pakistan should be according to the Sharia. ‘DAWN’

    No Democracy and no ‘Adlia’. Chief Justice and all others with all the the Lawyers can go home. All Politicians including Qazi,Imran Nawaz, can retire or work under Sufi sahib’s
    spiritual Guidance.

    Lines are drawn. Unfortunately the terror of Suicide bombers has paralysed our Political leaders. We have become cowards in front of these petty criminals.
    They are also using the word ‘Sharia’ cleverly. Most of the citizens of the country would agree that ‘Sharia ‘should be implemented, would not they?
    They have hijacked religion and they will tell you what Isalm means.
    Or unless someone is willing to stand up and tell them what Quad-i-Azam thought it actually meant???

  12. @Rasheed
    Jihad or not. I am actually talking about taking responsibility and is it really Jihad killing your own people (not talking about Americans, but normal Pakistanis)?
    He is a slick politician and a bastard and a half. But I am sure you will be amused to see the similarities in all Pakistanis. They always worship their leaders as their idols and everyone else is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Be it a jiyala or a matwala or a Sufi follower.
    I just want our nation to realize that the incompetence of our government shouldn’t be used as a mean to justify this Nizaam-e-Nonsense. Two wrongs never make a right, we need to realize this now or will be force fed it down the road.

  13. this sufi retard should take his beard and shove it up his arse. Pakistan was created by the Quaid – not jaahil dogmatic moulvis. this sufi dumbass is welcome to go to Afghanistan or India and play darulharb/darulislam there. take your horse and cattle show there, moulvi disco.

  14. @qali88:

    “I just want our nation to realize that the incompetence of our government shouldn’t be used as a mean to justify this Nizaam-e-Nonsense. Two wrongs never make a right, we need to realize this now or will be force fed it down the road.”

    very, very well said. completely agreed.

  15. SAMAD,

    nobody agrees with the Islam way of why havent you talked about what has happended after the deal?? why havent you mentioned the peace this nizam e adle has brought to the area of swat??? do you want ur army killing innocent civilians and in turn the civilians killing the security agency’s?? i dont know why you havent talked about the history of this area and wat the ppl living there wanted. i dont know why havent talked about how many ppl came out in support this nizam e adle for sufi muhammad. u talked about why there wasnt a debate on the resolution that passed this nizam e adle but should there be a debate on 17 amendment, there are some things that dont need a debate and this i was one of them.though ur article has some good points but i totally disagree with the “body” of the essay. SORRY BUDDY HAVE GOTTEN IT WRONG

  16. @tarar

    Exactly my feelings, I wondered what would they call Samad after reading his article and you are right on the spot.

    Yes, Samad was the part of a ‘bigger picture’, he and ‘Amreeki istemaar’ together set all this make him ‘CREDIBLE’.

    I don’t understand why people are in a denial; Irony is that all the atrocities by Taliban are being justified by producing same examples from non-Taliban factors ignoring the very fact that Taliban are doing all this in the name of Islam.

  17. “do you want ur army killing innocent civilians and in turn the civilians killing the security agency’s??”

    where was “ur” army killing innocent civilians? is our army full of retards that they would kill innocent civilians? and if they were why were these “civilians” who are oh so innocent killing the army?

    is Fazlullah, the beardo goatfuxer, an “innocent civilian”? if he is an “innocent civilian”, then I must be married to Iman Ali and Faiza Hasan at the same time… but since I am not married to either one, then Fazlullah, the bearded dogfuxer, must be a criminal bashturd who needs to be taken out so that he can go to hell and get it on with 72 other Talibans…

  18. I wonder why people like NS and Imran Khan are silient. We need some in-depth knowledge of what is actually going on. We need some clarity. American created and funded Taliban back in the days when it was not a threat to us but now it has become a threat for our own nation. I am Mulsim and I am all for Sharia but NOT thru these tyrant Talibans. They just know to flog women and burn schools in the name of Islam. They are the worst enemy of Islam.

  19. @Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar

    I was waiting for your response. I have exactly same feelings as yours and Samad. Good to know we have company, man.

  20. @dildar

    well, I can confirm that Samad is a CIA agent. I can confirm that because I am a CIA agent as well.

    in fact, all the money to Samad flows through me. for example, I just sent Samad a check for 17 dollars and 39 cents for writing this propaganda piece against Pakistan. Samad is working on dismembering Pakistan by writing against the noble Taliban.

    but shh… don’t tell anyone. it’s a secret.

  21. Dear Samad

    I read your column, published in TheNews on 20nd april. I would like to comment and answer some of the issue raised in your column. I took some of the paragraph from your articles and try to comment on them separately.

    <<>>

    Comments :

    It sounds that before so called flogging of a girl, as every thing was going according to the vision of Jinnah in Pakistan. I wish if you would have read about the live burial of women in Balocistan, Killing of a girl and then put the dogs on in Sindh,…well unfortunately you may not have access to the daily newspaper, expect youtube where u can find the video of flogging in swat. For you before few months before, this Pakistan was ruled according to the wishes and dream of Jinnah since 60 years. I hope some day you will visit Pakistan and see for yourself that how the much prosperous are the people in non-taliban areas.

    <<>>

    Comments:
    The beloved politicians and secular rulers has looted this country to the extent where we are not able to develop any of the useful technology except innovating technology of loot, corruption and bhatta khori by these “secular ruler”. I m sorry if i am unaware about the massive financial and moral corruption of your so called talibans.

    <<>>

    Comments:
    So you think that these judges are also part and parasol of Taliban movement. To me, quite strange is that Mr. Muhsarraf is roaming around who killed hundred of people (leave aside the people of laal mosque, becz i got the impression that some people may considers then animals) in balocistan and elsewhere, violated the constitution of Pakistan. I m wondering why these “Tablian Judges” are not hanging of flogging him in public.

    <<>>

    Comments:
    Well i lost my count, when i tried to think about the other states within state everywhere in country. To start with karachi as a big state, go to any nick and corner in Sindh, Balocistan, Punjab, and your hero Afzal lala khan, a pathan nawab in swat, now fearing his downfall and started crying, a state within state exists or not ?

  22. TARAR WHERE DO U LIVE????? I am sure not pak, if u did u would never said “is our army full of retards that they would kill innocent civilians?” i could give you a trillion stories but right now i will tell u somthing from my personal experience. there is a guy from swat in my dads construction company here in the USA whose son died from a missile that was fired from pak fuj. he has been in the US for 12-15 years and hasnt gone back, because he doesnt even have papers to go back, yet wants to stay cause he is the only financial support for his family and a lot of his relatives. FOR ONCE IMAGINE URSELFS IN THIS SITUATION AND i WANT TO SEE IF YOU GUYS WOULD NOT WANT TO KILL THE “ARMY”, IF THEY WERE BOMBING YOUR HOUSE AND KILLING INNOCENT UR RELATIVES. CAN ANY BODY TELL ME HOW PP LCAN GO TO AN EXTEND TO BLOW THEMSELVES UP?? TARAR YOU HAVE PROVEN MY POINT. WHY IS FAZLULLAH STILL ALIVE??????? OBVIOUSLY CAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN KILLING INNOCENT PPL, DAH. I AM NOT SUPPORTER OF TALIBAN BUT I AM A SUPPORTER OF NIZAM E ADLE DONT MIX THE TWO THINGS UP.

  23. @Rashid

    it can definitely be a lonely existence at times on this forum. it’s kind of sad. when it started, this was a very interesting forum with very interesting people such as TK, mbokhari, kafka, etc. but don’t know where all these people went. when they posted, I rarely posted because they would say everything I would have wanted to say and they said it in a much better way than I ever could. but now this forum has become a hub for amreekiphobia and taliban sympathizers.

    as a liberal fascist (what a contradiction), I am not saying that we do everything Amreeka asks us to do. but in our hatred of Amreeka, we should not play in the hands of the Taliban. it’s kind of like saving your hand from amputation by offering your leg instead just to spite the thug who was going to chop off your hand. but why use common sense and think about things when it is much more fun to use the religion stick to beat other people with.

  24. Dear Samad

    I read your column, published in TheNews on 20nd april. I would like to comment and answer some of the issue raised in your column. I took some of the paragraph from your articles and try to comment on them separately.

    Perhaps, if Jinnah knew that the country he founded was going to become an arena for public flogging, where the laughs of sadist barbarians will mingle with the screams of women and children, he would not have decided on creating it.

    Comments :
    It sounds that before so called flogging of a girl, as every thing was going according to the vision of Jinnah in Pakistan. I wish if you would have read about the live burial of women in Balocistan, Killing of a girl and then put the dogs on in Sindh,…well unfortunately you may not have access to the daily newspaper, expect youtube where u can find the video of flogging in swat. For you before few months before, this Pakistan was ruled according to the wishes and dream of Jinnah since 60 years. I hope some day you will visit Pakistan and see for yourself that how the much prosperous are the people in non-taliban areas.

    For the love of God, can anyone explain to me why the great army whose laurels we sing from the day we are born has still not been able to jam radio stations pouring terror in Swat? How is it that these Taliban leaders can appear before journalists in broad daylight and roam freely without any trouble even when they claim responsibility for a suicide bombing?

    Comments:
    The beloved politicians and secular rulers has looted this country to the extent where we are not able to develop any of the useful technology except innovating technology of loot, corruption and bhatta khori by these “secular ruler”. I m sorry if i am unaware about the massive financial and moral corruption of your so called talibans.

    We fought for a principle and won, with the hope that things will slowly improve. Today the very judges we had faith in released the Lal Masjid cleric whose crimes everyone knows about. If the judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were recorded on TV, perhaps it does explain why the Taliban are growing popular.

    Comments:
    So you think that these judges are also part and parasol of Taliban movement. To me, quite strange is that Mr. Muhsarraf is roaming around who killed hundred of people (leave aside the people of laal mosque, becz i got the impression that some people may considers then animals) in balocistan and elsewhere, violated the constitution of Pakistan. I m wondering why these “Tablian Judges” are not hanging of flogging him in public.

    What’s worse is that these leaders of ours have unanimously approved a state within a state run, which is not accountable to anyone, absolved the Taliban of all crimes and provided them a safe haven to kill more Pakistanis. The so-called Nizam-e-Adl Regulation was endorsed by the National Assembly without any proper debate.

    Comments:
    Well i lost my count, when i tried to think about the other states within state everywhere in country. To start with karachi as a big state, go to any nick and corner in Sindh, Balocistan, Punjab, and your hero Afzal lala khan, a pathan nawab in swat, now fearing his downfall and started crying, a state within state exists or not ?

  25. @bilal shah
    “SAMAD,
    nobody agrees with the Islam way of why havent you talked about what has happended after the deal?? why havent you mentioned the peace this nizam e adle has brought to the area of swat???”

    Which peace deal you are talking about, the one in which Sufi declared every one mushrik, and that there will be attacks on all kinds of courts because all the courts are plces of idle worships, give us a break man.

  26. I have been to Dawn news blogs couple of time. Its not as radical as this one. I enjoy blogging against JI and PTI supporters but Taliban supporters is just too much. What they don’t realize that if Taliban takes over JI, PTI, PMLN all will have to pack their bags like Gul Badeen Hikmatyaar, bruhan u din Hiqani, Ahmed Shah Masood etc did after Taliban came in power in Afghanistan. Even today JI amer distanced himself from Sufi Mohammad’s radical Islam in Mere Mutabiq.

    There is one positive change before IMC’s restoration Talibanization was not THE issue in media. After judicial movement all channels and news papers are disecting Taliban every day. I am confident Taliban sympathizers on this site will have different tone once IK, JI and PMLN will openly come out against Talibanization.

  27. @DILDAR

    “there will be attacks on all kinds of courts because all the courts are plces of idle worships”
    CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHERE YOU GOT THIS FROM, UR SOURCES. why are you ppl ignoring the fact that this deal has brought positive results in swat. 50,000 CAME OUT FOR THERE SUPPORT FOR THIS TODAY THAN WHO THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS IF THE PPL LIVING THEIR WANT THIS.

  28. @dildar

    Ask your courts to give judgment against the un-Islamic “Soudi sytem” or do your Islam allows this system to work in an Islamic country? Most of the elements and procedures of law are un-Islamic in nature and how a court can over-rule them. 99% of criminals, Bhatta khor, Zani, Sharabi are inside parliament. I dont consider this parliament as a representative of an Islamic country.

  29. “It sounds that before so called flogging of a girl, as every thing was going according to the vision of Jinnah in Pakistan. I wish if you would have read about the live burial of women in Balocistan, Killing of a girl and then put the dogs on in Sindh”

    I really don’t know what this retarded argument is supposed to mean and why it is repeated ad nauseum. I mean it’s just such an extraordinarily stupid thing to say.

    did Samad or anyone else say that the burying of women in Balochistan was fine but the flogging of Chand Bibi in Swat was not? did anyone say that throwing the girl in front of the dog in Sindh was fine but the Swat flogging was not? did anyone say the Mukharan Mai incident was fine but the logging was not? I mean I just don’t get it. if we said that other atrocities in Pakistan were acceptable but the Taliban crimes were not… then you might have a point. but everyone condemned these incidents. as a Pakistani I was appalled when Israrullah Zehri justified that inhuman crime by calling it a Baloch custom. I was outraged when the Sindhi girl was thrown to the dogs. and I was disgusted when the young girl in Swat was flogged and humiliated so publicly. you see as liberal fascists we have been consistent.

    it’s the religious nutbags who are not consistent. if Israrullah Zehri had said that the burial of the women was Islamic, I’m sure he would’ve mustered some support. if the murderers from Sindh managed to find some hadees to support throwing women to dogs, then this forum would be all for throwing women to dogs. point is wrap anything under the label of Islam and you can get away with any kind of crime… not matter how barbaric and animalistic…

    so, kindly stop using the existence of other crimes to justify the Swat flogging. that argument is a nonstarter.

  30. @shaz

    What about all those barbarians and militants who are leading this Talibanization effort? Do you consider BAitullah Masud and molvi Fazullah noble leaders – the leaders you can trust with islamization effort? who represents lesser evil here Taliban or Parliment?

  31. Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar said:

    Well dont worry, still there are lot of baboos including the author of this article who are suffereing from Talibanfobia and amrican sympathizers. I also think that in our hatred to Talibans, we are playing in the hand of Armika. For thugs and chor of this country, chopping of the hands and legs are only solution. The killing of poor, denial to justice, education, health facilities are not seen by these baboos living in posh areas and writing superficial articles. Go and see the plight of deprived one by the wadarias, landlords, corrupt politicians.

  32. @drasifjk said:

    “You have made a few good point but the very fact that many of us are constantly ignoring is that the Taliban have simply fill the vacuum which has been created by the horrific failure of the Pakistani state appratus over the last 60 years or so.”

    Here in lies the real problem. Taliban or no taliban, the mass disillusionment with the state had the situation ripe for any potent idea to replace the obsolete, corrupt and incompetent state machinery.

    How much has the state improved access to justice and other services for the common people? If Taliban was not a symptom and was a problem in its own right, how do u explain the insurgency in Balochistan? Or if you want to look beyond Pakistan, consider the rise of Nazism during the disastrous Weimer republic, Communism in Czarist Russia, etc.

    While there may not be much similar in terms of the cosequences, what is similar is the state of the “State” prior to the ascendence of the ideologies that transformed the state.

    The key is to understand the levels of despondence with the current state and the set of local and foreign influences that shape the movements for change.

    In case of Pakistan, the local inclinations has broadly relied on the local social norms, the general religious tendency in the masses, and a culture of individual justice. The foreign influence has largely worked to aggravate the state-soceity cleavage in favour of the Taliban, i.e. more recruits after each drone attack, financial support from outside and blatant intervention by the US in internal affairs of Pakistan, such as support for dictators and micromanagement of the foreign and domestic policy of the country.

  33. the politicians in the country have looted the country in billions and have left the country in poverty. just half a million ppl die every year because of Contaminanted water compare that to how many ppl taliban have killed i think the margin is nowhere close(not supporting taliban just giving facts). than why are we letting these “killers” come to parliament.

  34. @Shaz
    “why havent you mentioned the peace this nizam e adle has brought to the area of swat???”

    Because it is not convenient? Because it is not to be believed no matter what the facts on the ground.

    Samad wrote: “If the judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were recorded on TV, perhaps it does explain why the Taliban are growing popular.”

    And that should tell you something 🙂 And I think you got it too (“So you think that these judges are also part and parasol of Taliban movement”)

    Feel sorry for the judges though. Sufi is accusing them of strengthening Kufr and our baboos are now accusing them of being “part and parasol of Taliban movement”. Is it only me who finds this amusing?

  35. i appeal to the people,stick to the piont.how dangerous these taliban are for pakistan and islam.how can we counter them.how can we convince taliban lovers stop supporting taliban.

  36. @ All

    This article is highlighting the atrocities of the Taliban. They might have done a few good things, but that does not mean we can ignore the bad deeds accredited to them. Also the peace deal is just a small part of the problem, cause the main problem is providing the Taliban shelter/safe haven and therefore forcing the Americans to do more drone attacks and hence more and more casualties. Also this gives more such tanzeems the green light to create chaos to have their way. The bigger point is to keep this from happening and not analyzing what the deal is doing so far, as it has only been a few days.

  37. @bilal shah
    “compare that to how many ppl taliban have killed i think the margin is nowhere close”

    Oh, oh! You have committed the ultimate sin. How dare you say anyone, ANYONE is worse than the Taliban? That is “Kufr” in baboo bible. You have committed the ultimate sin and not amount of “not supporting taliban just giving facts” will save you now…….just wait.

  38. Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar said:

    I really don’t know what this retarded argument is supposed to mean and why it is repeated ad nauseum. I mean it’s just such an extraordinarily stupid thing to say.

    The authors sounded that if everything happening in Pakistan is due to Nifaz-e-Shariat and Talibans. There is no mention of what this country has faced in last 60 years due to baboos. Only one side picture from this retard and most of it is only based on assumptions and hence shallowed. I never seen his article on any of the issue related to other than Talibanfobia. For your information, your fellow baboos, including secretory interior also went on public to say that this video was fake.

  39. @qali88,

    The writer is confused and mixing TFSM with Taliban and I bet he cannot tell the definition of Taliban.

    Just see in the above picture how 50,000 civilians of Swat region are standing in favor of the NAR. The author can go to Swat and ask everyone what they want.

    Not only that, our democratically elected Provincial Assembly and National Assembly has sealed the agreement and give the people of PATA their rights.

  40. Western countries have been forced to intervene in Afganistan.Afganistan is not an asset;it is a liability.Why they dont attack Egypt, Malaysia or Indonesia.?Mullahs in Afganistan are responsible for providing. save heaven to terrorists and creating reasons for NATO attack.

  41. @Bilal

    “how many ppl taliban have killed i think the margin is nowhere close(not supporting taliban just giving facts). than why are we letting these “killers” come to parliament.”
    Everyone must be held accountable for what they have done, and all of us are always talking about how much we hate these bast@rd politicians for corrupting and looting and what not. After all we did go against these baztard politicians on March 15th. How many protests have been there for the burning of girls schools, and how many people actually came out in those protests? We should talk about both evils and you are right, but since the highlight of the month are Taliban, that is perhaps why the article only talks about Taliban. After all it isn’t a book analyzing where Pakistan went dramatically wrong.

  42. if u r true muslim and patriotic pakistani ,get united against these taliban.taliban are bastards,shamefull creatures,they are destroying the very same country where they residing.

  43. @talal khan

    For what they went to Iraq? Were Mullahs also there? None of the so called 9/11 participant was from Afghanistan, rather most of them was from Egypt. Why dint they stormed Egypt.

  44. @Rasheed
    “The writer is confused and mixing TFSM with Taliban and I bet he cannot tell the definition of Taliban.”
    Save haven is what I get from this article. After all Sufi is talking about going back there, just like he did in 2001. Also that he will be giving safe haven to his brothers from Afghanistan who are fighting against Amreeka.

  45. @ NOTA

    the thing with dumb ppl like you is that u dont know shit and are talking from ur ass. you dont know where all this started from and u guys think this started last year. wat al qadea was in swat?? i went to swat 3 years ago when i went to pak and it was like heaven, and look at it now. situation got worse when the army went into swat and did aerial bombing, killing innocent on “collateral damage”, ppl got radicalized and the taliban gained power and sympathy(keeping it short). same problem is happening in balochistan and when that situation rises to an extend when it is uncontrolable blame the ppl living there because they were oppressed a “little” bit. dont mix the nizam e adle with taliban. lets for second take this nazim e adle out can you PPL PLEASE GIVE ME ANY OTHER SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM. or do u still want the taliban beheading, threatening and spreading violence. STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASS AND PLEASE GIVE ME A SOLUTION OTHER THIS ONE, PLEASE.

  46. Remember these same Moulvis some time ago declared Mohammad Ali Jinnah a ‘Kafir’
    and called Pakistan ‘Kafiristan’

    Islami Riasat’ a theocracy is their destination. Khomeini had that done in Iran. Why not in Pakistan? Are Pakistanis not Muslims? Ask them they all want’ Sharia’. Now whose version of Islam would prevail is the real question?

    The root cause is the religion itself.
    Seperate the religion from the State. Easier said than done.
    Religion should be for spirituality. A private matter, between the man and his God.
    Islam -of Sufi Mohammed-does not allow such distinction. This needs to be created.

  47. How many of those commenting in support of Taliban ways and means and against Western evil on this site are actually commenting from their homes in the Western evil world of the US or England where you choose to live? And how many of you would rush back to live in Pakistan when the Taliban Emirate of Pakistan is established? I would take a wild guess that those commentors actually living in the West, particularly the US and Britain are the most pro-Taliban on this website. Amazing.

  48. @qali88

    We are not at all worried if Pakistan become safe heaven for Amrikens, their drones, handing over of airports and logistic facilities against our own neighbor people and mulsim brothers in Afghanistan, but we are quite worried that Swat can become the safe heaven against amrikens. Dont worry, Aka Amrika will do all her best, not to allow a safe heaven against them. Alas you cant deduce any lesson from the yesterday gathering of people in favor of Nifaz-e-shirat in swat. You mean all of them want only safe heaven against amrika. Sorry sir, these are the people suffering from un-just system since years and this started even before amrikens was not here, so before concluding try to read some history and facts about the region.

  49. @qali88,

    Taliban did disarm everyone in Afghanistan and brought peace after 30 years.

    If TFSM does take good care of things and perform exactly as agreed in “Peace Agreement”, then they will make sure that extremists are disarmed and there are no safe heavens.

    This peace agreement has to work and we don’t have any other option.

    As per the former IB Chief, we used all army + airforce, and the only option left in Swat was Nuclear.

    I am afraid this Talibanofobia of Baboo brigade will start advocating nuclear at some point of time.

  50. Before discussing Taliban and the wrongs associated and feared with talibanization, we need to look at the state of Pakistan. We will never understand a reaction until we know what prompted it.

    Almost 40% of the population living below the poverty line while the nation reeling under $40 billion in outstanding external debt.

    More than 30% of the population not having access to clean drinking water.

    Spending less than 0.5% of GDP on health and around 2% on education.

    Unemplyoment figures though fudged in not accounting for part-time employed, in the range of 10%, while inflation rate reaching 20% on food items.

    A legal system that has become a curse for a common man. In Pukhtun areas, one of the prayers your well wishers would offer is, “Allah may save you from thana and katchehree”.

    Rampant corruption in each and every department and mafias calling the roost. From drug company mafias, to doctor mafia, bhatta khor mafias, car snatching mafias, ransom mafias, political mafia, and the father of all, military mafia.

    If the state was really delivering on the basic issues, do you honestly think taliban or for that matter, the insurgency in balochistan would have been potent? Is it not the failure of the state that the fringe elements have become mainstream?

  51. @Jutt kharak

    Seperate the religion from the State. Easier said than done.

    I dont know what sense you are speaking. Do u mean that in politics, one can also lie, cheat, fraud, loot, kill etc like zardari said ka “mohida Quran aur hadith nhi hota”. Are you referring this kind of politic system? I dont know what hindrance you see by following Islamic laws and regulations in state affairs? Can you be more specific that how you want to separate both? Kindly educate us on your point of view.

  52. This agrument is going nowhere. I am off this agruement after this comment.Stop confusing nizam e adle with taliban.please Discuss nizam e adle,which the writer didn’t, those against it pick out the negative points( if there are any) and those with it defend the negatives simple as that.

  53. Good article but author fell short of condoning Altaf Hussain, whose voice could be heard louder in this silence of the Lamb.

    Hamid Karzai complaining that MASA is directly talking to Taliban but that is good to understand whats game plan of Masa.

    If I were Masa I would never pay attention to silent majority of a nation. I would look for active militants, Obama in the habit of addressing the issues has right choice to engage Taliban, directly in Afghanistan and indirectly in Pakistan through stooges and khaassi parliament.

    This indirect backing of Masa has put new energy in Taliban & add up to their zeal of Jihad & Sharia.
    Indian involvment in this backing has also contributed in killing of Pak Army Jawans.

  54. people. people. people

    stop encouraging this kid to write

    at his age he should be chasing after girls, drinking, smoking and doing all tht shit. and NOT writing articles

  55. @Shaz

    I don’t think following islamic laws will make everybody more honest.
    If the current laws in the Constitution of Pakistan are followed there should be no ,killing ,looting , suicide bombings sfarish,mafia etc etc. should be there.
    Nowhere the Constitution or the Present Laws of Pakistan condone any such actions.
    Or do they? So you just want to replace them with another set of laws and think everything will be fine? You are being naive.

    When laws are based on religion this will happen,just a little example.- quoting from another article-
    ”A few weeks ago, at a literary meeting in Virginia, a retired judge narrated the case of a 60-year-old woman who was left penniless when her husband divorced her despite the fact that her hard labour was the main reason for his success. The judge, after doing diligent research of Islamic law, mandated the husband to give his divorced wife a house and provide a monthly allowance.

    A conservative Muslim in the audience stood up and told the judge that he had negated Islamic law. Almost everyone in the audience was outraged by this comment, and a couple of them tried to rebut it as well. However, most kept the anger to themselves and avoided confrontation with this self-claimed puritan.

    This is typical of common Muslims: they don’t confront the mullahs when such a situation arises. Consequently, the mullahs think they have the moral authority over a belief system that is shared by all Muslims. If one goes by the mullahs’ strict interpretation of sharia law, women are not entitled to many things that common Muslims, especially females, would take as a genuine right. Therefore, there is a fundamental gap between what common Muslims consider basic human rights and religious hard-liners.”

    another advantage, perhaps not so important to you
    ‘It protects all people from the religious tyranny of any one religious group or tradition and it protects all people from a government intent on tyrannizing .’

    You think all the Western countries are corrupt,rife with sfarish,killings,rishwat etc..
    I don’t think so. They have seperated the two.

    “Pakistan has reached a point where the state, defining itself on the basis of religion, cannot survive: either the state or the theocratic concepts will survive. Furthermore, the state of Pakistan cannot survive unless the intelligentsia and the masses reconcile to the concept of keeping their belief system to themselves and letting the state be neutral to religion. Unless the masses rally around the new concept of the state — slogans can be sugar-coated for such a goal — security agencies will never have the moral courage and strength to eradicate extremism. The time ‘to be or not to be’ is upon us.”

    A more simple example
    Sufi Mohammed declared all those who voted against his Nizam-a-Adle ,Non Muslim.
    Apostates. Punishable to death -according to the version of Islam he practices-.
    That is the law you want to follow?

  56. @democracy
    “I would take a wild guess that those commentors actually living in the West, particularly the US and Britain are the most pro-Taliban on this website. Amazing.”

    Well I am considered among the ‘most pro-Taliban’ commentators and everyone knows where I live. So so much for that theory….

    BTW: Isn’t it more true that “hose commentors actually living in the West, particularly the US and Britain are the most anti-Taliban on this website. HARDLY Amazing.” 😉

  57. Some ammo for you guys here:
    Senior PPP leader, Nawab Yusuf Talpur finally speaks his mind
    ISLAMABAD: Co-chairman of the PPP, President Asif Ali Zardari, was given a bone chilling but indirect warning last week that the PPP would not be able to withstand the deadly ghost of the Swat Shariah deal for decades to come.

    A senior party leader from Sindh spoke in harsh words apparently against the policies of the prime minister at the PPP parliamentary party meeting but the message was clearly meant for the presidency as he attacked all major decisions taken by President Zardari.

    The leader, Nawab Yousuf Talpur, even recalled the controversial role of the PPP in the fall of Dhaka, as he said, even todate some sections of the society in Pakistan blamed the party for its role in breaking up of Pakistan in 1971.

    The sources said PM Yousuf Raza Gilani and participants of the PPP parliamentary party listened in pin drop silence when the widely respected Nawab from Sindh compared the fall of Dhaka and the deal in Swat and wondered how the PPP would be able to face the serious consequences in the days to come, in case things went from bad to worse….

  58. pakistan is a nato ally.pakistan must seek friendly countries help to compete against taliban.america must carry on drone attacks to weaken taliban.america must stay in the region if she leaves its a very good chance taliban could control the whole region.

  59. some points

    1 – what Jinnah’s pakistan, that Pakistan u lost to in 1948, then in 1971 so dun abt Jinnah’S Pakistan as that Pak dun exist. Thats why we have 1973 constitution, which dun reflect Mr, Jinnah’s vision but is built in the vision of Qarardad-e-Pakistan and vision of Iqbal. So to all intellectuals lets be honest intellectually.

    2 – The opponents of SWAT deal has so far produce nothing that cna show its unconstitutional, since its not unconstitutional wat’s the problem. If its abt democracy that some how SWAT didn’t want it then once again b4 u die crying and weeping over loss of democracy in SWAT how abt some democracy in Pakistan itself where there is much need, hey dun even need to go to interior of any province we can start with Karachi.

    3 – Regarding state inside state duhhh SWAT and FATA are state within state thats as per constitution but it dun matter cuz its labelled as Islamic movement so it is bad, but wait how abt MQM’s Karachi is that not state within state? How abt all these waderas with pvt jails and pvt ghunda army an’t they state within state? but no its bad cuz it happened in name of Islam.

    4 – Thats the same army which saved liberal’s a** over and over and keep protecting the elites of pakistan against the ordinary ppl. All of a sudden harvard graduates living abroad aree dying for the pain of SWATI ppl yet where were they when ordinary pak ppl were dying by scores by the hands of MQM? When Army moves in to crush any movement these same liberals then call the army fascist dictators and accuse them of war crimes. Why do u need army to deal with a political problem cuz politicians are inept, sofi mohd started the movement in 90’s it was peaceful movement guess what happeened.

    State by their ineptness, greed and stupidity force ppl to pick up arms. The Pak govt be it military dictatorship or democratically elected have failed Pakistanis over and over, instead of tackling problems with dialogue and politically they have choosen the way of force, well guess wat violence begets violence. Now 1st time Politician doing politics by implementing nifaz-e-adl and guess wat these liberals fascist can’t stand it they want bloodshed. What happened to peace and dialogue and solving problems through negotiations? U guys want to talk wiith India, usa and every other person who is actively hurting Pak and is destroying it but can’t talk with our own ppl? These so called HR activist and NGO were dancing and presenting sweet to India soldiers on wahaga border when the other soldiers continue with rape and destruction and killing in Kashmis, why u silent on Kashmir, why dun u ask the givt to use its gun to free kashmir, after all Jinnah said kashmir is pak’s jugular vein no? aren’t we supoose to fight 1000 yrs if it takees for kasshmir?

    Oh the hypocricy thy name is kala sahab

  60. what a pathetic and western wannabe article. indeed it has become a fashion to blame everything on talibs. down with you howard coward student, your paper protests cannot stop their robot drones.

  61. @razakhan

    Well summarized points. I hope these baboos will run after reading your points.

    @ Jutt kharak

    You will see for yourself how the financial system of west will die down with time. Some of the symptoms are started coming now and rest you will see sooner or later. Unfortunately, there is no country in world with true Islamic system, to whom i should give you the example. Everyone is puppet of US. Do you think that in west everything is going perfect? They are morally and socially corrupt at its extreme. Financial system is crumbling. Look at the crime rate in those countries, its not that everything is going perfect. Most of the richer countries are exploiting third world countries to maintain the living standard of their citizen.

    I dont get how you prove that Islamic system is wrong? On one hand you are saying that judge did a through research of Islamic laws and gave a good verdict in favor of women and on other hand you are saying that an individual objected to that. Well who said to you that a single person is responsible to interpret the who Islamic laws. In Islam there is a concept of Shura and Qazi is chosen such a person who is well qualified in the laws. Islam is all about speedy and correct justice system beside its wonderful social and moral teachings.

  62. i just wonder why west love pakistani people so much and we hate them so much.one of my friend who lives in australia told me government give him 800 dollors fortnightly as enemplyment benefits and he is getting for last 2 years and give his children 60 dollor a week pocket money for each child and every time child was born they give my wife 4000 dollor baby bonus.i did,nt believe him but he was swearing.can some one tell me is it really true.how come they love pakistani people so much.

  63. @ Nota

    i’ve posted this on a few different threads but i think you keep missing this…
    ——————-
    @Nota

    dude!!!!!!! i’ve been visiting this site since ‘07….. once upon a time you were easily the most rational commentator on this site…. what happened??? you seem so focused on tripping up the ‘babu’s’ that you’re losing the plot here…

    our country is on the verge of imploding and you’re too busy point scoring instead of using your (considerable) writing and analytical ability to get people to focus on the real issues at hand…
    ———————————

    @ democrate

    your arguments a bit childish….. the west doesn’t ‘love’ or ‘hate’ the pakistani’s. they merely have a welfare system that works.. grow up !

  64. @gv

    problem is no one responding in rational manner, so eventully one get tired and try to answer them in the language other will understand. I wish we have more rational debates instead of point scoring,, but then if we have column like this to discuss hard to be rational lol

  65. @ M Tarar, Rasheed,

    You guys are focusing on the right points but you’re unnecessarily goading the wrong people here.. .

    Yes this site is peppered with a few irrational taliban sympathisers but it also has its fair share of irrational PPP , PMLN and IK supporters who are not willing to consider any constructive criticism of their beliefs/leaders etc.

    I am pretty certain commentators like Nota are not at all pro-taliban they just react to blind condemnation of the Taliban/TNSM et al using poorly researched and illogical arguments.

    I appeal to all the regular (rational thinking) supporters on this site. We have a country.. flawed admittedly in many ways.. but it is our country and there is still a narrow venue open to us which allows us to slowly implement change for the better…

    lets not let illeterate and irrational forces (be they liberal or right wing fascists) fragment it to the point of no return…

  66. What a pathatic article………..this samad guy should only concentrate on his studies………i have wasted my time reading it……..

    @Admin

    Please follow some kind of criteria for selecting articles for discussion.

  67. @bilal shah said:
    “@ NOTA
    the thing with dumb ppl like you is that u dont know shit and are talking from ur ass. ”

    Speaking of talking out of one’s ass, did it ever occur to you I WAS SUPPORTING your comment? 😉

    @gv
    I did see your comment (once) before and believe me I am trying. But then, articles like the present get put up and the lies get repeated and often….

    BTW, glad about you getting “it” 🙂

  68. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    I would suggest for the author of the article in The News.. as I recommend for the whole nation .. a splash of cold water, to clear his doubts about Taliban.

    I have so much to say, yet no one has the courage or understanding to make sense of it.

    I would ask the author of the article in The News, to read MORE, get to know MORE about the people, the area, its history, its ways, before he makes public comments or statements about it.

    From the article I can summarize, he is ILL informed or has MUCH to learn before he can judge what is happening. The situation is at times more complex and at times more simple than what he sees.

    I would like the people of media to stop its fake attitude, come out of its SHEEP propaganda against the Taliban and do programs on the true identity and nature of Taliban. Make programs on their actions and expose those entities who are maligning the Taliban with their private heinous acts.

    The only reason we have groups like the Taliban and TNSM blooming among and around us is because the STATE of Islamic Republic of Pakistan has failed in carrying out its duties.

    The first of which is;

    1) imparting justice: implementing free and fair justice system that is across the board, without any distinction of colour, race, power, money, status, or anything else.

    I would invite the author to READ MORE on The Islamic state or UMMAT that Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) created before making his statements public.

    2) Pakistan has failed to provide a system, infrastructure, resources that it PROMISED the people of NWFP, FATA and other adjoining regions

    3) Pakistan interfered in the affairs of Afghanistan

    4) Pakistan IS STILL ENVOLVED IN INTERFERING IN THE AFFAIRS OF AFGHANISTAN, by providing LOGISTICS AND being a gateway for MILITARY SUPPORT for US/Nato troops to go to Afghanistan.

    The Afghani Taliban should be VERY MAD AT Pakistan FOR THIS CONTINUED TREATURY, which the people of Pakistan ARE ALLOWING TO CONTINUE DAY AFTER DAY, AFTER DAY.

    I believe IT is THEIR RIGHT TO ATTACK Pakistan.

    WHY IS PAKISTAN ALLOWING US TO DO WHAT ITS DOING IN AFGHANISTAN?!?!

    WHY IS PAKISTAN PROVIDING MILITARY LOGISTICS TO US IN AFGHANISTAN?!?!

    WHY IS PAKISTAN BEING THE GATEWAY THROUGH WHICH US SHIPS ALL THEIR MILITARY SUPPLIES INTO AFGHANISTAN?!?!

    WHAT IS US FIGHTING FOR IN AFGHANISTAN?!?!

    ALL of the above are VERY important questions we should ask ourselves and our beloved nation.

    Afghanistan and Afghani Taliban have ALL THE RIGHT TO ATTACK PAKISTAN FOR THE ABOVE, AND LET ME TELL YOU, IT IS STILL CONTINUING.

    I believe the Taliban are NOT to be bashed or scorned for what they do.

    I believe it is OUR OWN SOCIETY, OUR OWN PEOPLE, OUR OWN NATION, we have to bash and scorn for the today, for the days we are living through. This day and the days around it are a RESULT of what the state of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan did in recent past.

    NO ONE ELSE IS TO BLAME.

    So SHUTUP and LEARN MORE before you speak or post articles in public media

    This is what I have to say

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  69. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    We in Pakistan are animals. You know why? Because the people of Pakistan;

    – do not let any system flourish among them
    – do not let an impartial justice system be formed among them
    – will not live their lives following Islam
    – will not allow good to be done and bad to be stopped

    Why do you expect Pakistan should be spared?

    Pakistan should be bashed harder than it is being bashed.

    We in Pakistan fully deserve it for being corrupt.

    They say it correct when they say that “it was better when the gora was here”, you know why?

    Because they established a just system among us. They would impart justice ASAP.

    They would not plunder as much as we do

    They would not do injustice AT THE LEVEL WE DO AMONGST OURSELVES.

    WE in Pakistan are ANIMALS. ACTUALLY WORSE THAN ANIMALS

    We have proven it in the last 64 years, and we are continuing to prove it EVERYDAY THAT PASSES BY, EVEN TODAY. TOMORROW WILL BE THE SAME UNLESS WE CHANGE OURSELVES

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  70. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    These lambs are not lambs.

    Actually they are vicious animals busy in looting, plundering what they have been given by immense sacrifices of their past generations.

    So don’t bother sulking for them. They fully deserve this day

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  71. Ah, here is an interesting piece that appears with “Silence of the Lambs” in The News:

    The commodity that is Eve
    by Ayesha Tammy Haq
    “…Whether it’s the enforcement of Sharia, or the death of hunger-striking landless peasants outside the Press Club in Karachi, or the brutal attacks on women in the name of honour, the real criminal is the state. …”

    Some others from the same section:
    The Taliban are here
    Another one by Samad Khurram (Hey, @Bilal Shah, maybe you ought to be addressing him)
    “…All our talk shows discuss the merits and demerits of the 17th Amendment, or bash America and India. Yes, American drones and Indian statements are a threat to our sovereignty. Yes, the balance of power is important, but it is the Taliban who have killed more people than India or the US drones combined, and have made us feel more unsafe than anyone else in the past thirty years….”

    (So much for Harvard education… 😉 )

    Islamisation: cure of all evils
    by Qazi Hussain Ahmad
    “…The ensuing tug-of-war between the small minority of feudals and capitalists led by the colonial bureaucracy trying to replace colonists, and the vast majority of people yearning to materialise the dream of Pakistan into reality, led the country towards the state of affairs it is presently beset with. This confrontation has not only caused serious damages to the country, including the progressive erosion of nationhood, decline in unity, solidarity and integrity among the federating units and putting the country on the verge of collapse, but has also led to its dismemberment. For the common people the independence of Pakistan from the British colonists was nothing but mere change of masters….”

    Implications of the deal
    by Lt. Gen (retd) Talat Masood
    “…In these circumstances, on the surface the passage of Nizam-e-Adl bill by the parliament and its assent by the president should be considered a welcome development. The context of the current deal is however more complex and problematic. The government has yielded under compulsion at a time when Talibanisation is sweeping the country and overwhelming the state. Fazlullah and Sufi Mohammad have exploited this genuine grievance and has used it brilliantly to expand their growing power….”

  72. Shaz!

    Everyone in USA is cricizing Bush for attacking Iraq.But the attack on Afganistan was due to the fact that terrorists were trained and guided there.Their Passports and visas and other evidence cofirms it.Gen Mehmood and other snior officers went to kabul after 9/11, but talibans refused to cooperate.

  73. @hariskhan,stop advocating taliban,dont u know they are killers and they are destroying my beautifull country.

  74. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    The Taliban have not even come close to killing as many civilians as we in Pakistan have helped US to kill in Afghanistan.

    STOP THINKING PAKISTAN AND THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN ARE SAINT S. THAT THEY ARE BEING WRONGLY SUBJECTED TO PUNISHMENT.

    PAKISTAN AND THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN FULLY DESERVE EVERYTHING, EVEN MORE

    Leaders of Pakistan have taken money from US/Nato to stay quiet and help US/Nato do what its doing in Afghanistan and in FATA

    Why are you concerned when people of Pakistan think, citizens of Pakistan are a burden on Pakistan?!?!

    Don’t you see the atrocities a common man in Pakistan is perpetrating everyday against every other common man in Pakistan?

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  75. “Silence of the Lambs” yeah right, what about the “Silence of the BABOOS”?

    To all liberals: where you see Talibanization growing, I see BABOONIZATION getting out of control.

    It is like a bunch of high school kids debating on “Einstein’s Theory of Relativity”, “Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle”, “Wave Particle Duality” etc. if anything it is amusing 😉

    @hariskhan well said 🙂

  76. @all

    guys there is one article sammad whateverhisname is and one by Kalim Siddiqui which is titled silence of the lambs.. i think admin cocked up the title here..

    so i guess every one is fallible after all????????

  77. @all

    guys there is one article sammad whateverhisname is and one by Kalim Siddiqui which is titled silence of the lambs.. i think admin c**kd up the title here..

    so i guess every one is fallible after all????????

  78. @democrate

    FATA is victim to 60 Drone Attacks from Jan 2006 to April 2009 which killed 687 innocent Pakistani civilians and only 14 alleged AlQaeda members.

    Taliban are murders, sure!

  79. @all

    two different articles in The News guys.. two different authors.. one is called silence of the lambs by Kalim Siddiqui the other is the one we’re commenting on called Taliban are here..

  80. @gv
    You are right. The Kalim Siddiqui one is titled “Silence of the Lambs” and he is pissed at the release of Maulana Abdul Aziz:

    “Most of those killed were innocent. Today we see on our TV screens that all charges have been dropped against the man who instigated this action.”

    Funny how, while saying all those dead were innocents, he puts all the blame on the Maulana. Wow!

    (The one by Samad is titled “The Taliban are here” that I linked to above thinking it was another one by him. So I goofed up too… )

  81. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    FATA is not a victim of drone attacks. I don’t accept that.

    FATA is a victim of criminal people leading Pakistan.

    FATA is a victim of a few people who have taken money from US to stay quiet and let the show go on

    FATA is a victim of the people of Pakistan, who have dropped their standards so low, they are unable to defend themselves against obvious attacks from its sworn enemy.

    No, FATA is NOT a victim of drone attacks.

    FATA is a victim of Pakistan and the people of Pakistan .. period!

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  82. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    FATA is a victim of “nalaeq Pakistanis” and “nalaeq Pakistan”.

    Don’t you see the news everyday?

    Don’t you see how the US rose to defend its citizen, who Iran condemned as a spy, without even a fair trial?

    Don’t you see how America defended its citizen outsize its borders?!?!

    Does Pakistan do this for its citizens? Pakistan used to do it before 1970. Doesn’t do it anymore.

    Pakistan happily gives up its citizens to Americans to be tortured. And you know what? The people of Pakistan will just feel bad about it. That’s all. They won’t do anything about it. Heck, they don’t even feel bad about it .. now. Its become too usual for them.

    Pakistan and people of Pakistan are the ONLY ones to blame for whatever is happening.

    ENJOY! Pakistaniyo! ENJOY IT TO THE FULL

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  83. imho, the logical conclusion to be drawn here is:

    Samad Khurram is a witch… burn him…

    no hang on…

    Samad Khurram is a CIA agent… so, burn him regardless…

  84. @junaid,u call urself muslim and still u lie.man ,u misunderstood,only 14 innocents died,all other were taliban beasts.

  85. @hariskhan
    “Pakistan happily gives up its citizens to Americans to be tortured. And you know what? The people of Pakistan will just feel bad about it. That’s all. They won’t do anything about it. Heck, they don’t even feel bad about it .. now. Its become too usual for them.”

    I think you are giving us too much credit. I think you missed the repeated calls by our — apologies, @gv, for sometimes it can’t be helped — baboos to come and kill more….you missed PZP’s calls of “Give us the drones, for we’d love to do the killing ourselves”…you are ignoring the the actions of our army against our own people…

  86. pakistan army is not killing innocent people,to save innocents they are being killed themselves.if army has been given free hand,i bet it our brave army can eliminate taliban with in one month.

  87. There must be a line drawn between original Taliban and imitated Taliban. The original Taliban are fighting for their country and the imitated one are fighting with their country. There should also be a line drawn in between Taliban in Swat and the ones in FATA, and technically the FATA Taliban can be grouped with the original Taliban.

    What about Swat then?

    Even though a peace deal is being signed and Nizam-e-adal is in practice there already then why Swat Taliban refused to lay down arms as per deal? and Sufi Muhammad is increasing uncertainty in the country by considering the whole system non-Sharia.

  88. @hariskhan

    Agree with all your points… what is your proposed solution???????

    @M Tarar

    No he isn’t – but to be fair to the nay sayers his article has not argued both sides of the story and is a one sided condemnation of all things islamist….

    ps. i’m an agnostic at best but if the majority of my country wishes to implement shariah law than so be it.. as long as its a democratic process where the leaders are brought to power by an empowered electorate and are acting to improve improve education, justice and the economic infrastructure.. heck they can be voodoo followers from eastern angola for all i care..

  89. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @nota

    We know very well why Pakistan wants to have those drones.

    Infact, those drones are flying from within Pakistan and attacking Pakistan and Afghanistan. Another reason for Taliban and Afghani Taliban to attack Pakistan.

    and yes, I am giving credit to the people of Pakistan. They can stop it by force, if they wanted to. But .. I’m afraid this if is too big for them to handle.

    Rather, we love to eat bribe money in shape of the lolly pop of aid.

    America announces to give us $1.5 billion dollars in aid per year, whereas Pakistani expatriates send 4.x billion per year

    Chullu bhar pani main DOOB KE MAR JAO Pakistan.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  90. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    The solution is a long list of steps towards the right path, which starts by;

    1) immediately implementing an easily accessible, across the board, impartial, non-discriminatory justice system

    2) immediately resolving major cases against those who have committed high treason, those have looted this nation, those who have committed crimes

    I agree with Jamaat-e-Islami and Imran Khan’s listed points. I believe, they have the ability to bring us out of this quagmire and take us towards prosperity.

    3) I want people of Pakistan to STOP voting for convicted criminals. Also for those who are suspects in criminal cases, be it Zardari or Nawaz Sharif or anyone else within Pakistan. STOP VOTING FOR SUSPECTS IN HIGH LEVEL CRIMINALS CASES!! STOP VOTING FOR CONVICTED CRIMINALS!!

    Those criminals give you some thousands as lollypop during their election campaigns and loot/plunder billions in their tenure as our leaders. Actually, they do more harm than that.

    – I want people of Pakistan to start showing some credibility as a nation, as a collective, like we have in our glorious past.

    – I want a fair system of trading implemented, regulated by those who have credibility to be impartial. A system of trade that is free from EVERY KIND OF INJUSTICE

    – Pakistan should implement an easily accessible, across the board, impartial, non-discriminatory educational system, which empowers the worthy and encourages those who lag behind

    I want Pakistan to take concrete steps which lead towards a nation that is busy in living the Islamic life, learning and researching, reaching high into the circles of education, science and technology, into other fields

    If Singapore, Malaysia can do better than us, Pakistan has MUCH more resources, so it should be capable of MUCH MORE than both those nations.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  91. @rasheed

    Shame on you for posting a picture of 50,000 terrorists supporters. Sarmad posted a picture of a Policeman crying for the loss of a co-worker and you have immediately responded with a shameful picture. What world are we living in? Your actions did not surprise me because it is unfortunately our nation which is being fast talibanised by media (both print and electronic), right wing politicians like Imran. Nawaz Sharif and Munawwar Hussain. Even leftist party like PPP and ANP are so scared of Muslim Khan’s threats that they forced National Assembly to pass a fake Shariat system in double quick time. Jinnah’s Pakistan is in deep strife.

    I thank Sarmad on writing such a good article and I hope your efforts will open eyes of this sleeping nation and of rasheed and nota as well.

    Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad

  92. dear all,

    this latest revelation by so called sufi (disco maulvi retard person) challenging the writ of the govt. he can be tried under various charges;

    1) contempt of the Supreme Court of Pakistan ( remember we the comman man struggled for its supremacy not long ago)

    2) violating the constitution ( treason under article 6)

    3) openly asking the people to take up arms

    4) destabilising the country and throwing it into further chaos

    5) declaring immunity from trial to the so called soldiers of Islam ( killers, murderers, looters etc etc)

    6) openly giving threats that either you are with me or against me

    7) himself responsible for the deaths of thousands of his followers in 2001

    8) labelling the Pakistani nation a Kafir

    9) above all openely going against the dream of our Beloved Iqbal and undermining the sacrifices of our Beloved Quaid and millions of people engaged in the Independence of our country

    if he doesnt like all this , he should take himself and his flute and go and drown himself in the river along with his army of mice.

    the govt. and the army should not let him go this time.i hope so!!!!

  93. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @AClarionCall

    you can say;

    Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad

    because;

    1) your loved ones have never been killed without provocation

    2) your city has never been tormented the day Afghanistan, NWFP and FATA has been

    3) Pakistani government has not yet sided with Americans to bomb your home or the homes of those who you care for

    Yes, it is very easy for you to say;

    Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad

    Wake up!! Pakistan decided to make Taliban Pakistan’s enemy. Taliban didn’t and don’t want to do it.

    Why doesn’t Pakistan stop supplies to US/Nato forces from Pakistan?

    Why doesn’t Pakistan stop providing logistics and military support to US/Nato forces?

    Isn’t it the Quran that says;

    don’t help non-believers in killing your brothers

    Aren’t we in Pakistan going against the Quran, going against our most solemn laws and interfering where we have no business?

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  94. @pak007,

    very well said. this Sufi retard should be taken to task for his comments… disco moulvi’s gotta go… to jail…

  95. @hariskhan

    Your solutions are very commendable but a bit idealistic.

    Given Jamaat-e-Islami and Tehreek -e- Insaaf’s rather lacklustre showing in any election over the past decade the public does not seem to have any confidence in their ability to rectify the existing situation.

    how do you propose to convince the public otherwise?

  96. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    You can only invite foreign investment in your nation if you show to the world;

    – anyone who invests in Pakistan, their money is safe, their life is safe, their business is safe

    – anyone who comes to Pakistan, will have a fair justice system to go through, if someone commits a crime against them

    The world today knows the credibility of Zardari. No one listens to him. Why? Because they all know his reputation.

    Pakistan will only be able to attract local and foreign investment if there’s a strong base -> an easily accessible, across the board, impartial, non-discriminatory justice system

    People of the world, business owners of the world, of Pakistan, will only invest in Pakistan IF you show this place has justice.

    Otherwise, its nearly time to go to open war with our neighbours anyway.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  97. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    That’s exactly my point.

    It is the people of Pakistan who have to make them win.

    It is the people of Pakistan who have to change their ways

    Right now, this nation believes that having no system is better than having a system.

    Right now, this nation believes that having no justice system is better than having a justice system.

    Right now, this nation believes that having no fair, transparent trading system is better than having a fair, transparent trading system.

    It is the people who bring up the leaders. Not otherwise

    You say my solution is idealistic, I say, its our only chance of survival.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  98. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    Don’t you remember the example of Yousaf (AS)?

    He was a wise Finance Manager. He turned it around for his nation. Research on and read his example and learn from it.

    Why can’t we do it? Why do we think its an ‘ideal solution’?

    If everyone in Pakistan is employed, who will be left to create menace? Who will be left to commit crimes? Who will be left to spread roumers? Who will be left to separate us?

    Who will be left that is radicalized to the level of committing suicide attacks?

    The simple answer is -> No one.

    It is the people of Pakistan who don’t want a just and fair system and life.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  99. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    The world economy is more than $14 trillion dollars.

    Do you know what is Pakistan’s contribution in it?

    Negligible. Not even a mere $5-10 billion.

    Doesn’t that sound good? It makes us proud of us, doesn’t it?

    We are those who can be killed because we don’t make a difference to this world.

    We can be killed because we are insignificant.

    This is ONLY because WE CHOOSE injustice over justice. Because no one is held accountable for their statements or actions. No one, not even a common man.

    I have friends who went to UK. Do you know what he says when I talk about Pakistan and the people of Pakistan? He says he doesn’t care anymore.

    He completed his MCS from Pakistan and then went to UK.

    No one invests in Pakistan, not even the local investor. They all look abroad for making money. Why?

    There is no justice is Pakistan. Heck, there’s no assurity of anyone life. Making money comes after that.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  100. @haris

    Once again i agree that the solution must come from within – but how do you propose to bring the public on board?

    Whatever Jamaat-e-Islami has been doing for the past 64 years hasn’t been working. Tehreek-e-Insaaf appears to be politically naive at best and neither the TNSM nor the TT are elected nominees of the public.

    I do not think anyone on this forum will disagree with your end goals for the country – the implementation of achievable strategies to achieve those goals may be a great deal harder than it seems.

    Unless you plan to impose them through the barrel of the gun … although most violent movements end up taking up a life of their own…. with mostly unhappy endings…

  101. I don’t know why these pseudo intellectuals fail to see the difference b/w forces operating in the region. Author doesn’t seem to have a good understanding of the history of Swat. Often, I find it interesting how the liberal forces (Kashif and his ilks) try to lump together JI,PTI and Taliban. Let me try make a clear distinction as it has become so hard for otherwise geniuses around here to udnerstand.

    Taliban=MQM (two fascist parties on opposite ends)

    They both believe in imposing their agenda on other and violence. You’re either with them or against them. There’s no middle ground! Raising your voice against them will earn you a grave.

    JI,PTI,PMLN,PMLQ =Center to right || PPP, ANP =Center to left

    TNSM is not Taliban and Nizam-e-adl is not Shariat

    TNSM was founded in1992 when Sufi dropped out of mainstream politics of JI because he didn’t think he could accomplish his goals through the parliament. He was promised a few times about the implementation of the system that they lived in forever. BB and Nawaz broke their promises and then came Musharraf who went a step further to ban TNSM and locked him up in jail.

    I bet you million dollars that writer who mocks this regulation by callling it “Nizaam-e-Nonsense” never botherered to actually study it. Had he done that he wouldn’t have made a fool out of himself. This proves again the kind of grip he has on the subject matter he wants to write his expert opinion on. There’s nothing in this regulation that violates the basic human rights or anything else . The problem is that we have some Englih medium school kids that get scared to hear the words like “Dar-ul-qaza” which simply is reffering to the courts.

  102. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    The movement for Pakistan started with education

    Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) started building a nation by teaching them the ways of Islam.

    I believe that is the place we should start with -> education.

    Educated people, who are empowered by the knowledge of Islam and have the skills to earn money, the thirst for research, the quest for more and more knowledge will have the capability of bringing about this change.

    Does that mean, we will live in darkness to that date?

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  103. What people dont understand is that all religions were made by leaders in old times to regulate societies in the absence of formal laws and rules.So religions played a positive role at that time,when every one knew each other and the crime was easily detectable. Now the things have changed. there is cybercrime and white collard crime. the system of witnesses in the courts has become unreliable and scientific investigation has become authentic.usher and mal -e-ghnimat are no more applicable.Every religion teaches goodness.But the application of laws in different situations need human wisdom based on decisions unique to situation and general theories of religion cannot be applied in every situation.For example none of the prostitute involves in sex for enjoyment.Sentencing her for Zina is not solution of problem. In developed countries smoking has declined due to awreness and experience and not because people are afraid of God.God also wants people to improve by learning and experimenting.

  104. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    I say, start educating people and put everyone to work. That combination will automatically put people on the right track.

    That will automatically create hunger for justice system.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  105. Has the @dmin come under pressure from baboo’s who have labeled pk-politics as taliban politics, or pktaliban or whatever. Because recently this site is getting flooded with talibanphobia, shariahphobia and most sadly Islam-o-phobia.

    Anyways, this is just a one-sided article.

    I don’t know if people here know, who are taliban, who trained them, why they turned their arms against who created/funded them, etc
    But what I know is that these so called enlightened secular wikillectual’s wouldn’t even bother to see the other side of the coin, because to them these are just some stupid sick conspiracy theories, but the truth is always bitter. You can deny but you cannot change the facts.

    And to the writer I would say, if he really wants to make the people of Pakistan sympathise with America, he’s going to have to do a lot better than this.

  106. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @gv

    Stop supporting US on the war on terror.

    Start working on solving our internal problems, rather than collaborating with others to fight wars. We are not in a condition to help others fight wars. We should retire from it ASAP.

    1) Build relations with Islamic nations, i.e., economic, education.

    2) Build or rebuild military co-operation between Muslim nations.

    3) Encourage trade between Muslim nations, by building a large scale market between Muslim nations. That is America’s advantage over us -> America has a large scale local market

  107. ok

    but how do you intend to provide that education?? – that is my point

    we all know we need education and an independent judiciary etc to move forward but given the current political set up – how do you think it will be implemented ? What do we i.e. the civil society have to do to make sure it happens?

    we cannot keep condemning the rulers without providing viable alternatives which can actually be implemented.

    Once again i repeat i am not an islamist – i do not believe in mixing religion and politics i think its disastrous but if the majority of the pakistani electorate wants to implement an islamic state than i will support it.

  108. @gv,

    There’s so much Pakistan can do.

    4) Pakistan can make sign contracts on military collaboration with China and other surrounding nations. Its purpose?

    Any nation that comes under fire or attack by any other nation that is not part of the contract will be defended by everyone who signs the contract.

    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    If you think mixing religion and politics is dangerous, you need to read about Hazrat Muhammad (SAW). You need to read about Khulafa-e-Rashideen, you need to read about the mid-evil era. Have you heard the saying/verse that goes something like?

    siyasat se deen nikal jae to reh jati hai changezi

    There’s so much Pakistan can do. But not nalaeq Pakistan. Laeq Pakistan can get it done.

    the viable solution is a solution where the people sit together, take things in their hands and start doing it.

    That is the only viable solution I have for you.

    That is the solution implemented in Europe. That is the solution implemented in US. That is the solution implemented in every nation which is called ‘developed nation’

    The people of Pakistan have to come together and start doing it.

    When the civil society starts it, the government will automatically follow

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  109. @hariskhan and gv

    I suggested this b4, I agree with goals of mentioned by hariskhan, I strongly believes that JI should take a sabbatical from politics and return to core values of JI, that is to educate, to train and to built a society through dawa (do dawa with humility and wisdom – alquran), meanwhile they should back PTI. Problem with PTI is no edcuation for workers, they should take the model of JI and MQM, and start workshops on their philosophy so that their workers become committed political workers. Using JI support they can garner in beginning a portion of seats, dun matter if its only handful (in beginning JI could do seat by seat adjsutment but the goal should be to make PTI the dominant party).

    While JI and PTI educate and train masses, they can use the same process to take priniciple stand on issues and work toward betterment of Pak by holding the govt accountable.

    If u note JI wasn’t part of SWAT deal and though they welcomed it later on, just recently Munnawwar hassan has reproached sufi mohammad and advised him to consult learned scholors b4 issuing fatwa. we have tried PPP and PML – N and we know wats in store so why not try to get other parties chance. It will be long path but what choice do we have except to pick gun and then we no different from talibaan and mqm.

    Both PTI and JI patriotic credentials can’t be questioned, both has done some good work in non-govt capacity and both has committed errors in political cycle like every political party. If NS can be rehablitated why not JI and PTI? If opposition to JI is base on thier Islamic view then clearly the problem is not which party to govern but the problem is with sharia itself. Simply put one opposing it cuz they dun want sharia. If that’s the case then its fine. But atleast have guts to say so we dun want sharia and we want secular Pakistan. Then we can fight it over and decide what we want. End result I can guarnatee u will be world war.

  110. yes, the @dmin is being blackmailed by baboos… they have some naughty pictures of him in which he is caught in some compromising positions with the pkpolitics server.

    unbelievable! is there any limit that Taliban lovers won’t cross when it comes to conspiracy theories?

  111. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    by But not nalaeq Pakistan. Laeq Pakistan can get it done.

    I don’t mean those educated people who plunder.

    I mean those people who have credibility to do it.

    Who has credibility? Those that we know are not corrupt, those, who we can trust, and then have those who have the educational background, have the skill, those who can be held accountable

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  112. Taliz can just eat sh&t & die .. plus we dont need to learn from taliz how we have to spend our lives..

    rasheed said:
    @ 50,000 Swatis gather in favor of TNSM and Nizaam-e-Adl. Can you bring more than 50,000 against TNSM?
    shove your hand in your mouth.. 😀

  113. @raza

    In my opinion the fact that the public voted in the PPP, PMLN and ANP etc implies that they are more comfortable with secular rulers than religious ones.

    Is that not enough proof?

  114. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar

    I will openly say;

    I love the Taliban

    I say who ever talks bad about Taliban does not know the situation on ground, the people, the ways of the people of that area, the history of that area and the people living there and most of all they don’t know what is going on there at present.

    btw, about the girl flogging video. It was never proved that Taliban did it. It was never proved this was a recent video. Nothing was proved about that video.

    roumers .. can be spread by anyone. But I’ll go with the slogan;

    innocent untill proven guilty in favour of Taliban.

    If you want to make your opinions based on roumer, then there’s no bigger a fool than YOU

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  115. @gv

    I believe, you are talking about the minority of Pakistan.

    The majority did not vote because it was open news that;

    Rules and regulations of Election commission were tampered with illegally

    How else do you explain that a suspect in many high level cases -> Zardari came to power

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  116. my goodness… wtf is going on this forum. “roumers” are being spread. dua gohs are giving duas to bigger fools.

    HarisKhan, do you love the Taliban long time?

  117. @Haris

    if you google Pakistan election results 2008 you should find a number of sources generally agreeing on the relative fairness of the 2008 elections compared to past results.

    Secondly the public did not vote in Zardari, they voted in his party – he never campaigned as potential candidate.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly that our system is flawed and needs to be fixed but i’m not so sure that the public really wants religious rule

  118. haris!
    Muslim coutries respect Indians more than you.should countries start trade based on religion.then non muslims will benifit because they are 5 billion.and religious fanatics of each country will kill people of other religions.Do u want slibi wars(crusades to start again)

  119. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @talal khan: I did not say trade based on religion. <- this means, use religion to conduct trade. That failed in Pakistan and won’t abroad.

    Trade = exchange of goods and services

    Muslim countries respect Indians for a reason. Learn the secret behind that reason and master it. I’m told Muslims countries hate Pakistan because we have given them no benefits in trade, which others have.

    I said trade between Muslim nations

    We all know that there’s no better way to improve our economic situation.

    The west will only give us ‘aid’.

    What we need is trade.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  120. @gv

    Then the problem clearly is not anyone but public itself. So there is no point to argue, public is getting what they richly deserve. But a point I would like to mention, would u not agree that JUI, JI, TNS, TNFJ and others so called religious parties still have a sizeable population behind them. What happens with Talibaan surge is not that ppl wanted sharia all of a sudden but they were fed up with unjustice and wanted justice plus wanted to stop exploitation and liberal values thurst upon them during 8 yrs of Mushy, couple that with WOT u will agree taht sharia was at the bottom of their list, reminds me of Iranian revolution they wanted to get rid of shah but had no clue wat Islamic revolution will bring, thats what happens with marginalizing moderate forces, eventually ppl will get tired and pick up guns as we saw in tribal areas and as we saw with so called freedom fighters lashkat &co.

    Ppl have to decide neither JI nor JUI are stupid enuff to force sharia, infact JI is on record saying they agree in principle that sharia should be supreme law but as per 1973 constituion. So if ppl cant get it through thier head and this liberalization continues then I fear more religious minded ppl thinking u know wat state sucks lets pick the gun.

    Bottom line as I suggested it wont be easy but we can educate ppl and bring change or we do nothing and keep chanting talibaan murdabad and will keep going toward anarchy

  121. @gv

    Let me repeat;

    JI and PTI didn’t take part in that election because at the time, it was open news;

    rules and regulations of election commission were tampered with by the ones in power

    People were abducted, threatened.

    It is SIGNIFICANT to point out here, that people of Pakistan are a horde of fools.

    It is said that they voted for PPP members out of sympathy for Benazir Bhutto.

    That means, the nation voted for known criminals out of sympathy.

    In Germany people vote for that politician who creates jobs

    In Pakistan we vote for those who destroy economy and with it our jobs

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  122. God likes those who are using their brains for technologigical advancement,human rights, music, recreation, healthy entertainment,better living conditions,comfortable housing and not those who want to pray all the time and live in stone age.

  123. @Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar

    … as a liberal fascist (what a contradiction), I am not saying that we do everything Amreeka asks us to do. but in our hatred of Amreeka, we should not play in the hands of the Taliban….

    …How many protests have been there for the burning of girls schools, and how many people actually came out in those protests?….

    Right on the point.

    This may be how you are interpreting it but it is NOT how the Sufi-tola sees it. You can take a look at Sufi’s statements and he refers to it as “Shriah”.

    This tells you how afraid people are of these religious fanatics. The writer does have a valid point that how much time was spent by the Parliament to debate a bill of this importance and magnitude. I have also not seen any comments from the pro-Sufi folks on this forum on what to make of the threat that was issued by this nut-case Sufi, addressing the parlimentarians, that all those who would dare to oppose this bill would be declared “Kafirs”; I mean WTF. I have also no seen any comments on the same nut-case Sufi’s statement that none of his nut-case followers would be tried in the courts for their crimes. This is the NRO that the nut-case Sufi has promulgated and we thought that our corrupt politicians were the only ones who were benefitted.

    I believe that someone has already posted it above, but I would like to post it here from Cowasjee most recent article:
    AUGUST 11, 1947, in the constituent assembly of Pakistan at Karachi: “You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.” — Founder and maker of Pakistan Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

    February 19, 1948, a broadcast to the people of Australia: “But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.” — Jinnah.

    Later in February 1948, a broadcast to the people of the US: “In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.” — Jinnah.

    Footnote: Karachi is already feeling the Taliban pinch. Co- educational schools in Defence, Clifton and Saddar areas are known to have received visits and been threatened if they do not change, others have been sent letters with the same message.

    I am not sure how are we going to be able to protect the non-Muslim minorties from these fanatics who have no tolerence what so ever , which is the one of the main traits that Islam impresses so much upon.

    @msohail83

    “…TNSM is not Taliban and Nizam-e-adl is not Shariat…”

  124. Sorry for a mixup above. The following was addressed to @msohail83:

    @msohail83

    “…TNSM is not Taliban and Nizam-e-adl is not Shariat…”

    This may be how you are interpreting it but it is NOT how the Sufi-tola sees it. You can take a look at Sufi’s statements and he refers to it as “Shriah”.

  125. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @Amir Hameed

    Why do you forget that from videos in which people of Swat and other areas talked, we can draw one main conclusion;

    whoever;

    1) brings peace

    2) provides justice

    in that area will win

    This can be local people there who have taken up arms to safe-guard their interests or it can be the Government of Pakistan.

    Looks like the Government of Pakistan said, we’r not interested in it, so the local people said ok, we’ll do it ourselves.

    Who is to blame in the above?

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  126. @Amir Hameed

    That’s what happens when we have our elite class that is so obssessed with the West and English language. They forget that not even 5% of the population speaks English yet all the speeches are delivered in English by PM/President and their ilks. Not even all parliamentarians can understand the lingo.

    Can you tell me why this reuglation was written in English? Does sufi even know English? They got his signature of this document but prolly never even bothered to sit down with him to go over it in detail. Couldn’t they have written it in Urdu/Pashto, the lingos understood by the common men?

    Now, I’m not interpretting it according to my beliefs. I’m just saying the way it is but thats’s besides the pont. My point was the author doesn’t have a clue about the regulation that he’s trying to talk about in his article.

    Regards

  127. @hariskhan,
    There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that our government is and has been incompetent and has failed miserably in providing justice to a common man and not only just to the SWATies. But the answer to this defficiency is to struggle for a better system and not to create a state within a state with its own Nizam-e-Adl (whatever that means). I would also like to see your comments on the way Sufi had threatened to the wuss parliament of ours and to the blanket amnesty that he is going to provide to all his nut-job followers who have committed crimnes. How can you advocate for a judiciall system without teating everyone at the same level? Isn’t this also the main problem that our judicial system has which does not treat people equally? What about all the girls’ schools that these nut-job beardos blew up in SWAT? How was that related to the implementation of this Nizam-e-Adl (whatever that means)?

  128. @msohail83:

    Can you tell me why this reuglation was written in English? Does sufi even know English? They got his signature of this document but prolly never even bothered to sit down with him to go over it in detail. Couldn’t they have written it in Urdu/Pashto, the lingos understood by the common men?

    I think it is because per the protocol, all the state business is done is English. But, I think it is a very valid point that how come due consideration and ample time was not given to the bill of this importance? The govenment should have also invited all religious scholars (local and abroad) in the debate to make sure that all parties agree interpretition of this Nizam-e-Adl (what ever this term it means). I find it amazing how easily these people can label anyone as a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

  129. @Amir Hameed

    Remember NS refused to recognize the courts just few months back, and dun temme restoration of CJ is reversal of Nov 3rd illegal acts, cuz its not.

    What sufi says why worry abt it. Whats the max gonna happen Sufi picks gun so govt go back and fight them, nothing lost nothing gained. But just think using this lull this peace govt can go ahead and enforce it writ. Thats the point we trying to make. Govt was out of the area due to this agreement they back now its upto govt how to use that and establish it writ. I have said it b4 am saying again, govt has the best of the both world, use the sharia courts to really go after the talibaan, use the courts that they demanded themselves, dun loose head let them talk watever they want, take away their so called moral high ground and have public fully behind govt, But this hue and cry will only make govt look bad and make these guys hero again.

  130. @razakhan,
    … govt has the best of the both world, use the sharia courts to really go after the talibaan …

    I am afraid that it will not be that simple. First, the rhetoric of this nut-case Sufi is clearly a threatning tone and is setting up really a bad precedence. Second, the message that this deal is sending is to pick up arms, kill people and your demands (right or wrong) will be fulfilled and third, how week the government is. This is the point that I have been trying to make here. As for the argument that those who are against this nut-case Sufi are only trying to make the government look bad is not true because this government, like the many others of the past, is incompetent and has no clue on how to run the affairs.

  131. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @Amir Hameed

    I myself have no idea about the contract between Pakistan, FATA and PATA. I also have no idea about the past history of Nizam-e-Adl

    As far as my knowledge goes, it is said that Quaid-e-Azam drew a contract with people in FATA and Pakistan military withdrew from FATA. There was peace there.

    I’m not sure if Swat or that area falls within Pakistan, FATA or PATA.

    I agree, if anyone, be it local or western forces, be it any one person’s or a nation’s followers, whoever threatens us, Pakistan, goes against the law of the nation, goes against the nation. Which makes them culprits.

    Impartial, across the board justice means NO one is spared. The justice system works across the board. The group of people, no individual, no company, no entity is out of this boundary.

    If Sufi sb. goes against this fact, then it means, it is his personal version of ‘Nizam-e-Adl’. That kind of justice system will fail. History is a witness of this fact.

    Also, I want to add that, that part of our country is in a state of war. Which means, the people of that area have to be very careful in deciding who is their friend and who is their foe.

    Unless the Government of Pakistan re-establishes trust and credibility in the people of that area, I don’t think they will accept Pakistan’s laws. This is plain common sense. They have been betrayed too many times.

    What will be the result? Groups like Sufi sb. will rise from the people.

    I agree, our justice system does not treat people equally. It needs to start doing that.

    The girls schools that they have blown up, if they have blown up, it should be condemned. I’ll say two things about it;

    1) Again, I’m not certain because I haven’t seen any proof that Taliban did it. I read somewhere that it was staged by the army or some other to de-fame the Taliban.

    2) The people of NWFP, FATA, PATA have on occassions decided to remain that way i.e., to live the old fashioned way i.e., the man goes out, does the hard work, runs the place, the women stay at home and take care of the chores inside the house.

    You would remember when parliamentary seats were being increased for women, the women of those areas’ happily, on their own part said, that we do not want become part of this system. We do not want power. We want to remain at homes as before. This was open news from media at that time.

    So, the problem has to be seen in context of what the people of THAT area want. How do they want to live?

    You know about USA. Every state in USA has their own laws, by which it is governed. The main point is, that system should be sound and liked by the local people. If the local people don’t want Pakistan’s law, then it is totally up to them.

    I’ll say it again, unless the Government of Pakistan re-establishes trust and credibility in the people of that area, I don’t think they will accept Pakistan’s laws. This is plain common sense. They have been betrayed too many times.

    P.S. I haven’t seen what Sufi sb. has said or declared

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  132. @Amir Hameed

    Second, the message that this deal is sending is to pick up arms, kill people and your demands (right or wrong) will be fulfilled and third, how week the government is.

    been happening 4ever govt agar logoon ki suntee to yeh halaat he nahi hotey. Look at Baluchistan, look at Karachi. So this argument is not valid. There are sizeable number of population who does want sharia in Pak, its the fact may be they not majority then so are liberals who are not in majority, majority wants non extremism i.e neither true sharia nor western style liberalism. So the best thing to do is restore 1973 constitution and go full fledge on justice. But who wil deliever that justice, except PTI and JI who both are untainted by any corruption. Ppl will accept even zardari and NRO provided justice and rule of law get enforced right away and govt show backbone to usa.

  133. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @Amir Hameed

    If the Government of Pakistan ensures the people of that area an impartial, across the board justice system then I will garauntee you 100+ % that they will choose to abolish this Nizam-e-Adl and go with Pakistan.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  134. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    @Amir Hameed

    After all, was it not because of the superior, impartial, across the board justice system that helped the Muslim UMMAT’s trade and military campaigns to be successful?

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  135. @hariskhan,
    With all due respect, it is not just the people of that area (Swat, Malakand, etc.) that need justice; it is every single person of this country that needs swift justice (elite, poor, Muslims, non-Muslims, etc.). So, the government should have promised that it would implement good governance and an effective judiucial system within a certain amount of time and not giving into the demands of these nut jobs and all those who so bravely stood for the independent judiciary should also have stood for the implementation of a good governance system. So, when I look at Nawaz Sharif, I see a leader who took the easy way out and instead of pressuring and working with the government to make sure that the government installs an effective governance system in Swat, it preferred to have the deal signed and I call it an easy way out. I am a big supprter of Imran Khan because I believe that he is very sincere to this nation and his heart is at the right place but I am disappointed that he has not issued any statement againt the rant of Sufi and I will most likely record my feelings on the Insaf web site.

  136. @hariskhan,
    After all, was it not because of the superior, impartial, across the board justice system that helped the Muslim UMMAT’s trade and military campaigns to be successful?

    You are missing the point my friend. No one disagree that the justice system in the times of Muslim Caliphs was great. But you absolutely can not compare this Nizam-e-Adl system(what ever it means) to that system. In that system, innocent people were protected and not slaughtered, hanged; female schools or educational institutions were not burnt and their education was not labeled as un-Islamic. Justice was provided to everyone unlike in this system where Sufi is claiming that those of his followers who have committed crimes would not be tried in Qazi courts (whatever these courts mean).

  137. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    I was just thinking about the Islamic economic system.

    In that system there are no taxes on income, but there are taxes on ‘savings’.

    This means, everyone would have an incentive to always have their money moving through the economy.

    This helps in many ways;

    1) It ensures, no one man or group has control of money, no one can monopolize it

    2) money spending is encouraged, that means investments for businesses, rather than money stored in banks where they loose their worth

    3) little headaches about money distribution

    4) when money is always being spent, that means more jobs will be created, that means everyone is working, which in turn means, people have no incentive to turn to crimes

    5) which in turn means stability and peace in the society and also

    6) growth of overall economy. Value of money increases

    We need such a system, where the corrupt cannot monopolize the money. Money distribution doesn’t become a headache, so the criminals can never hurt us.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  138. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    When legitimate governments will leave vacuum of power, what will happen?

    Others will come in and take its place.

    The current government can be blamed for this. They have left Pakistan ungoverned since their tenure started.

    HarisKhan

  139. Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    I said openly that I think Taliban are a good force.

    I say this openly as well;

    If Taliban go about matters illegally or against Pakistan, I can and will change my view in light of the events, accordingly.

    So far, I have little to believe against them, because of what I know about them.

    I’m watching Live with Talat – 20 April, 2009. This program talks on exactly this fact.

    We will see how honourably or dis-honourably do Taliban go about the mentioned affairs

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  140. The Nation of Conspiracy Theories

    Let’s vote for the most plausible one:

    Conspiracy Theory #1: Pakistan army has a strategic secret deal with Taliban to counter India in the west and hence lenient on them.

    Conspiracy Theory #2: Army has been defeated by Taliban in FATA and PATA. The foot soldiers are less likely to shoot at their Ummah in new fronts.

    Conspiracy Theory #3: After a fall in public opinion, the strategy of army Jurnails is to let Taliban bring some havoc. With a counter punch on Taliban at the right time, Pak Fauj will win back people’s heart.

    Conspiracy Theory #4: It is the criminals and narco-traffickers hiding behind Taliban who decapitate people, send suicide bombers to mosques and forbid women to do shopping.

    Conspiracy Theory #5: All westernized liberal elites want to transform Pakistan into South Miami Beach, strip Pakistanis of their dignity and destroy the value system.

    Conspiracy Theory #6: Pakistan will never recover from Talibanization.

    Conspiracy Theory #7: All elites, vaderas, industrialist and army Jurnails will run towards a place like Westwood, California when Pakistan becomes a “real” Islamic state.

    Conspiracy Theory #8: Vast majority of Pakistanis are actually happy about the advances and atrocities of Taliban.

    Conspiracy Theory #9: Local population in the area under the influence of Taliban vehemently hates them. It is the fear of their brutality, which does not allow them to express their displeasure.

    Conspiracy Theory #10: People do not like Taliban either. It is the injustices and the loot by the rulers of past 60 years, which makes them double-minded and see a greener pasture under Taliban rule.

    Conspiracy Theory #11: Beardos do not believe in conventional intellect and debates. After all there will be no IQ test on Judgment Day.

  141. Let us get our records right. Pakistan was not created by Ali Mohammad Jinah, he just lead the movement of Pakistan. Pakistan was created by millions of Muslims who gave their life and blood to Support Jinah to lead for a separate dream land of Muslims of subcontinent. A separate country runs by Muslims according to their faith in Islam. That was the main objective and the reality behind the two nation theory whatever you may call it now. Whether it was British conspiracy or it was a genuine movement but one thing was clear Muslims genuinely gave their blood to create this country without knowing had there any secret politics behind the partition or not. Muslims didn’t care whether Jinah was a practicing Muslim to be trusted to lead but they stood behind him for one single cause to have country which would be governed according to ideology of Islam where all Muslims live as one big family. Otherwise leaving their home and loved ones behind would have make no sense.

    Also areas which entered in the federation did that because they supported a larger Pakistan governed by Quran and Sunnah otherwise had no motivation to join.

    Now it is the federation that didn’t keep to their promise for last 60 years. Federation have lied and lied again to the people of Pakistan who migrated and to those who made pact to join the federation. In the disguise of western democratic system Federations has fooled and failed to make Pakistan that was dreamed by our elders who sacrificed to the cause of Pakisatan.

    Also it is a liberal leftist of Pakistan and capitalist elite who always have tried to sabotage the efforts to make Pakistan an Islamic republic in its true essence. Now jinni is out of the bottle, how it happened is a big question. Whether it is voluntarily or it is orchestrated movement but either way I think it is the right time to enforce Islamic laws in the country thus meets old forgotten promise to the people of Pakistan.
    .

  142. @nota, haris khan, rasheed et all

    Lets make it logical.

    What I, as per you, “Baboo”, think that Taliban don’t represent Islam or Pakistani mindset, now please you tell, why do you like Taliban? If you think Taliban and TNSM are not same, even in that case please elaborate why do you like TNSM then?

    What is so good we gonna extract out of Taliban/TNSM ideology?

    Granted, political leadership in Pakistan is ugly, do you seriously think Taliban/TNSM are alternatives?

    Irani revolution was different, though the dynamics of that too were driven from dis-enchanted peasantry and landed class against the excesses of Shah of Iran, but a lot of those maulvis were university graduate. Do you seriously think Taliban/Sufi Muhammad are capable of dealing/running with a modern nation state?

    Please don’t attack personally, but I would love to indulge in a logical debate with you guys.

    Thanking in advance for being polite.

  143. The threats to Pakistan are multi-dimensional and blaming just one party would mean that we only understand the gravity of the situation superficially. From the outside, we face threats from the americans, indians, israel directly and the proxy wars funded by Iran and Saudi Arabia which largely is related to sectarian violence. Internally we face the threat of taliban. When the american drones attack the civilian population, mostly the casualties are the innocent civilians. The end result of the drone attack is that the relatives of those dead, want to avenge their beloved. Since they dont have options, many of them are lured by taliban and they join them. To make the matters worse, the army is there to eliminate the taliban but then again the collateral damage also encompasses the civilians. The hatred for americans is there as well as the hatred for the army.
    Its difficult to differentiate the suicide bombings because they can be from the taliban, acts of vengence or a result of groups funded by india, israel or cia.
    I strongly believe that the government should come up with a proper policy and ensure that it implements it. If the government doest take some bold steps in the near future, Pakistan might be in serious trouble.

  144. Civil society must wake up against these taliban lovers.
    These should be named and shamed.
    The slogan which I previously raised is very much relevant to this situation

    Pakistan key teen Shataan
    Faug, Taliban Aur Imran Khan

    I never supported MQM but I must say that they have the right stand against these murderous thugs.
    Hats off to Ayaz Mir also who had the courage to speak against this menace.

  145. Nurul!
    what the people of chak 32 gaf bay. knew about two nation theory?There was no danger to Islam,in united India..In fact Hindus, sikh, christians were living peacefully together.The leaders of Muslim League however felt that muslims will not get due quota in represention,and employment etc.No one ever talked about Islamic systemfrom1906 and 1947.If any, please provide a proof.Why did Baluchistan, qalat and Tribal areas did not create Islamic states before 1947,as they were independent to do so.

  146. If you care about democracy , have a refrendum in Pakistan and Afghanistan if they want Taliban style Islmaic laws or Not its simple.

    But No you wanna send drones into Pakistan.

    Because you dont care about democracy in Pakistan, in the same way you dont like democracy in Palestine.

    You just want misery and more misery to people who wants to live their life according to their own wish. Like you dont want democracy in Kashmir accordingly to UN’s passed reslolution which says Kashmiris will decide thier own destiny and its their right if they wanna live with India or Pakistan or independent.

    But you want more misery for people who wanna decide for themselves.

    But this is Not working so well any more as the whole world’s conscious has awaken via this internet and cell phone.

  147. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    @noorul: I agree, somewhat, with your statement. It was the people that decided to have a seperate nation to live their lives under Islamic principles. All the provinces joined Pakistan to realize one dream -> live their lives under Islamic principles.

    From the Hindu atrocities on Muslims between 1927-1929, our past generation saw firsthand how cruel and animal like Hindus’ could be.

    After that, if Muslims lived with them, they’d be stripped off of everything Islam and would have to live under those who do not even tolerate their existence. It was then in 1929 that Muslims decided that 2 years of atrocities is long enough. We need a seperate nation to live in. We do not want to live among Hindus’.

    Again, anyone who advocates living with Hindus’ in one place should read about the 2 years between 1927 – 1929. and tell me if they still think Muslims and Hindus’ can live peacefully in one place.

    I agree, their decision was “zabardast” by any standard.

    @dash99: I like the Taliban because;

    1) They have made agreements for peace, even though they represent the people who have seen a gross treatury against them by Pakistan’s government

    2) They are the ones who have fought off and defeated all dangers including foreign forces on our north western border and kept it free of all foreign menace without needing intervention from Pakistan Army or Government of Pakistan. The trouble started when Government of Pakistan started shooting and bombing people in that area without provocation.

    3) They have not attacked Pakistan, in the proportion Pakistan is still helping US/Nato forces to attack NWFP, FATA, Afghanistan. We are helping with logistics, military supplies, and what not.

    4) They have on occasions given back the land they have occupied in good faith, within Pakistan. Yes, I’v read or heard similar statements in the news media

    Granted there are forces that are trying to de-fame Taliban, by committing criminal acts, I will go no further in speculation.

    I agree, the sooner the Government of Pakistan implements its writ and implements an justice system according to the Constitution of Pakistan, the sooner everyone of us can get out of speculating every event and get back to our lives. The more this drama goes on, the more we talk, the more the country burns, the more the divide among us, the more the confusion, the more our enemies get chances to take advantage of it for their menace.

    @Engr_Ali: I agree. Too many people are envolved. The situation is complex at times and simple at times. It is difficult to make sense of it, based on the news we see or hear.

    @muhammad777: You make no sense. Talk facts or get your comments dismissed as a fallacy.

    You say MQM is good. I say everyone in MQM should be hanged for being part of a grossly criminal organization that has no agenda but to perpetrate “badmuash-ism”, “ghunda-gardi”, “la-qanooniyat” and brutal control over people. They can be easily summarized in one word -> criminal.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  148. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    @noorul: I will NOT dismiss Quaid-e-Azam. I will not dismiss Quaid-e-Azam’s role in an independent Pakistan. He worked day and night and with sincerity. Although there were many pure Islamic organizations still operating and rallying people, the majority of the people decided to get together under Quaid-e-Azam’s flag.

    This shows our people are not fanatics. We are good people.

    We need to think straight and stop being too self centered, live as a nation, as a collective, in addition to our individual lives. We loose focus and more importantly understanding whenever it comes to being a collective , a nation

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  149. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    Will you not agree that a state which agrees’ on just .. giving out .. its innocent citizens to foreign countries to be branded as ‘terrorists’ and treated as the same, is committing a crime?

    The constitution of Pakistan says, any citizen of this nation will not be surrendered to foreign forces without trying them by local court and local laws.

    There is no law in the country. There is no system in the country. Everyone in Pakistan is living their lives in a state of fear and dis-organized, hap-hazard or missing governance, since Feb, 2008.

    What we have in Pakistan today is a small group of people who have gathered to loot Pakistan, who have managed to portray themselves as leaders, when they are going against every solemn promise that the federation has towards its people. They are a band of criminals, period. I wonder why people of Pakistan are letting them stay on for as long as they’v had, even after so much that has been done against them.

    Zardari sb. is continuing Musharraf sb.’s policies.

    What we have in Pakistan is un-organized people, hap-hazardly trying to make sense of what is going on and the ones governing them are making sure the governed don’t find out. If they do, they will start asking questions. What were you doing at that time? What are you doing for us? and the group that is governing would come under fire.

    I hope and pray the people of Pakistan will bring down the government of Zardari, have elections conducted and vote for someone who will work for them, like JI or PTI. JI and PTI both have a track record of sincerity and truthfullness. They have capable people among their organizations who can govern this nation and take it back to the right path.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  150. Why Muslim League was defeated in mid1940s in Punjab? Even Allama Iqbal Did not talk about a separate country on 23rd March,he talked about a sort of confedration.All Religious leaders opposed Pakistan,why?Pakistan is a blessing for Muslims due to their independence and so on , but it was never created to be a theocratic state.All the scientific progress and development of Muslims occured in Banu -Ummaya’s period as they adopted Roman and greek system of governance.,(.although I hate Yazid).For the success of a theological state you need leaders having character of Khulafa-i-Rashideen(R.A)

  151. I am confused..
    When Pak army couldn’t crush militants, it is accused as “unwilling to do so”.

    But why are US and Nato forces couldn;t do so in Afghanistan …?
    Are they not capable ?

  152. BISMILLA-HIR-RAHMA-NIR-RAHEEM,

    Assalam-o-Alaikum ALL,

    I’ll close my comments for this thread by saying;

    The root cause of ALL problems in Pakistan is ‘injustice’.

    It will continue and it will get worse if we don’t implement a justice system.

    ALL this talk is useless and helps in dividing us.

    Dua goh,
    HarisKhan

  153. @cristine

    Its very simple. Pakistan army is just a great army in name only. They have never ever won any war. Be it 1965, 1971, Kargil etc. We were wonderfully sidelined by the Indians. And its not astonishing as instead of doing their supposed job they try to run the country and have tried and failed miserably in that too. We have a saying in Urdu “Jiss ka kaam usiy ko sajhey, aur karey to thenga bajay” which basically means that you can only perform the work for which you have proper training, if you try otherwise then you will fail miserably. Hence the great Pakistan Army.

    Afghanistan is a completely different story. Its a Graveyard of Empires. The great USSR disintegrated after invading Afghanistan. USSR was the neighbor of Afghanistan. While US & NATO are coming from thousands of miles away. They will surly be crushed to death. It’s a matter of when not If.

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/57411/milton-bearden/afghanistan-graveyard-of-empires

  154. I don’t understand we call ourselves muslim but we don’t like Islamic justice system. We want independent soverign country but we want foreign non muslim governments to run it. We want to be democratic but we don’t want when people choose Nizame Adal as a justice system. Countries which beg and barrow don’t prosperous and don’t win. This country should start from zero and avoid taking aids. The aid has sucked this country like cocain sooner it stops the better.

  155. @razakhan

    Mate from what made you think so. Alhamdulilah I am a Pakistani Muslim but I am not afraid to call a spade a spade. An Indian won’t know the saying that I put in my message.

    I said that Afghanistan will be the graveyard of NATO & USA, and no American tattu will say that.

    I said about the loss of all wars fought by Pakistan, and that is all the truth. Job of the army is to safeguard the country and they have miserably failed to do so. Siachen is a good example.

    They tried to rule the country. First Ayub, who abrogated the constitution. Then Rangeela general took over and gave us Bangladesh. After that we had Ameer ul Momaneen Zia who gave us drugs & weapon culture.

    Finally Mushy Kuta who gave us Lal Mosque, Kargil, Drone Attacks, Selling Pakistanis to America for dollars, Firing the Chief Justice, Abrogating the constitution etc etc.

    Go through the list and point out where I was wrong.

    I don’t blame others for our problems. Its my house and I have to clean it. Problem is we haven’t found a leader with a backbone who can do so. I feel so bad every time I see Mushy Kuta giving interviews, talks and playing golf. He should be hanged in the chowk and left there to rot.

  156. @sok

    Ghulam mohd gave us ayub, and bhutto was part of ayub govt and was standing with ayub against Mohaterima fatima ali jinnah.

    BD wass done by yahya, generals, bhutto and mujeeb. everyone hand was in that noone was innocent.

    Zia gave us lot of things including weapons and drugs he also saved us from bhutto’s fascism and russian invasion, he also gave us mqm and NS.

    mushy gave us the worst with the help of politicians i.e mqm pml-q ppp jui ji pti almsot everyone except PML -N who were the injured party.

    Point meri jaan is hamam main sab nangey hain and u know i will never blame any general, any politician or any foriegn power for anything dun to us cuz the ultimate responsibles are the awwam, cuz its promised to us we will get leaders we deserve. Beside all these generals politicians and looterey comes from within us, bahar se import nahi hoey, the only importation is done again by politicians jinkey bacchey bahar parhety hain bahar paltey hain then come back and rule on us.

    Agree on hanging mushy but hanging is such a lenient sentence for that *rami we should dismember him limb by limb till he bleeds to death, or better yet lahoriyoon ke havaley kar do lol.

    My point of argument with u is that ppl mix generals with pakistani army, I love my army I hate my generals. Our army fought on siachin and kargil bravely we lost due to generals and politician. I understand the frusturation against the dictatorship but I wil blame it on generals and politicians while |I will stand and salute a javan he is my hero. Blame the generals dun blame the army is my point

  157. @sok
    We better know who ruled when. Your fucking mind midget masters don’t even recognize democracy, superior courts and so on. Well, screw you and your Talipirates. I am very huge and i mean it very huge supporter of NS and SS but they have disappointed me over Taliban issue. Only Ayaz Amir has pointed to bitter but true version of war fought between army of Pakistan and the rebellious bandits. They are now even asking for ransom from Sikh families living for thousands of years in NWFP. Nizam-a-Adal is totally bullshit. These people could have passed a bill for civil courts to super fast their hearing and decision making and i demand to government to look over their governing partners in sindh because they also have got the ability to siege the Karachi city by force and we have observed this thing at 12th of may. MQM should feel ashamed of its terrorist activities and Pakistani disintegration agenda in Karachi.

  158. I have been living in Swat. Sad to read some comments. When people were hanged and slaughtered in the Bazar of Swat, we were told that these people are funded by Indian RAW, American CIA and Isreali MOSSAD so as to destablise Pakistan and take away the nuclear assets. All of a sudden every thing has changed. They have become good guys. The Americans are opposed to it but our governments are full of praise for them Those who support the Talibin rule in Swat today, why don’t they send thier children to nschools here in Swat. Why don’t they settle thier mothers, sisters, daughters in Swat. Why is the ANP leadership sending thier families to settle abroad. Please have mercy on the people of Swat. Samad has correctly stated that Pakisatan is breaking up. Those who killed several innocent citizens, challenged the writ of the State are victorious. Pakistan and the people of Swat have lost. The photographs showing a few thousand people attending the address of Hazrat Sufi Mohammad speak of the fear of the people of Swat. This is what is called TERROR and the State of Pakistan is surrendering before the Terrorists. The day is not far when this will happen in the rest of Pakistan.

  159. @Nurul

    The problem is not islamic law or the Nizam-e-adl. If this had been implemented via peaceful political process and voiced using elected representatives of the people than no one could condemn its implementation.

    However this was imposed using brute force and coercion and directly threatens the writ of the federal centre so it can be used as a precedent for different factions to break up the country.

  160. @gv

    and who is resposnsible for that all political parties since inception of pak. Just take the interest issue, interest is haram in Islam, we have shariyaat court and SC decision directing govt to cease in interest and been atleast a decade we still have not made any progress. Situation wouldn’t have come to that if Mushy elightening era hasnt made ppl feel that western values were being shove down thier throat.

  161. Have you ever rationalised why interest has been declared ‘haram’ in islam???

    Have you ever put it into historical context?

    Do you know there is still considerable debate as to how to define ‘interest’ in the islamic context – and varying defintions depending on which school you adhere to?

    Nothing that is mundane is black and white in religion? Everything needs to be interpreted in context!

    I have said before that i do not condone any political party in pakistan – i agree that our leaders have failed us and that is why we are standing at the edge of a precipice at this moment.

    But it is up to us, the public to lobby and voice our concern for a implementation of a just and legitimate system (islamic or otherwise) as opposed to allow anything to be dictated to us through the forces of terror and violence.

  162. I sincerely Haris Khan, Nurul, Nota, M Tarar and everyone on this forum is deeply concerned about the future of our country and each one of us want the best possible outcome. Therefore it is imperative we use this forum to form a constructive path forward and benefit from this diversity of thought as opposed to creating further strife and dissent amongst us.

    As civilised and educated members of society we should be able to hear each other’s point of view and form an acceptable consensus instead of constantly belittling and mocking each other.

  163. We are a nation of a 170 million people and counting.. we have a surplus of languages, custom, and cultures. We will never be a monolithic culture it is not humanly possible to achieve that. Instead we should celebrate our diversity and work towards the collective benefit and i am sure we have the potential to do that..

    (ok i’ll get off my soap box now.. apologies to all for sounding preachy)

  164. @gv

    u r talking abt the debate btween interest and usuary, how abt taking a start lets debate interest while ban usuray, every one agrees on usuary no? Point is WE have had fed shariya court decision and SC decision saying the current banking should be modeled and usury be baned so dun think we have problem with what defination and what both shaiyaat bench and SC bench has already rules the system as haram andd unconstitutional. satisfying Islamist and liberals on both accounts. London is becoming hub of Islamic banking and we can’t even implement it here while its killing our population.

  165. @ raza khan,

    khan sahib in my humble opinion (as a banker myself) don’t think the commercial banking sector in pakistan is practicing usury by any standards..

  166. @gv
    Imam abu hanifa went to attend a funeral while waiting for the rituals he was standing by in the sun, when a group of ppl who were waiting in the shade of the wall called hiim and ask to come under the shade. he said no thanks, when inquired why not he said the companion that the person who owned the house, owees him some money and imam feared that if he stand in the shade of the house that might be considered as riba –

    plz dun take it as a fatwa of imam cuz his fatwa is different its just his personal taqwa,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/576435.stm
    In its ruling, it said the present financial system in Pakistan, which is based on interest, went against the “injunctions of Islam”, and would have to be altered.

    “In order to bring it in conformity with Sharia [Islamic law], it has to be subjected to radical changes.”

  167. @raza

    Economically speaking – interest represents the cost of borrowing money.

    The availability of credit (provided it is regulated and governed by a legally enforceable system) provides an impetus to economic growth. Ergo it is a good thing.

    Interest is merely the incentive for investors to act as providers of credit. If the interest rate represents a rational return and allows for positive economic growth benfitting the whole than it is a good thing.

    If interest is crippling it will end up destroying an economy and is a bad thing. These are all logical rational arguments – Islam (in my humble opinion) is a logical rational religion therefore i do not have a problem with reasonable levels of interest as it benefits the greater good.

    i don’t believe what Imam Abu Hanifa experienced in the 8th/9th century ummayad/abbasid caliphate is entirely applicable to our situation because i think that we are all intelligent enough to form a rational conclusion based on our experience and understanding of the current socioeconomic set up.

    In my opinion islam is a living religion which needs to be interpreted to the current environment of its ummah- incidentally which is what Abu Hanifa, Al Ghazzali et all tried to do and we should follow their example

    Our biggest problem today is that we are forever gazing backward. We need to look forward

  168. @gv

    bro i already stated that was not his fatwa but his taqwa 2 different things.

    Is interest as define in quran has benefits sure it says in quran but its harms outweighs its benefit. THis is long discussion, and we both can reach our conclusions, I just wants to point it out that Islamic banking is alive and well and according to modern times in allover middle east and is gaining ground in west. I think we can safely assume all aspects have been discussed and thus are being implemented.

  169. @raza

    i’m sorry but i think islamic banking is a convoluted way to achieve the same objective whilst playing with semantics. however that is just my opinion and if everybody else is happy with the results than who am i to complain..

  170. ^^^
    I would say that as it exists here today, “Islamic” Banking is very much as @gv states: “I think islamic banking is a convoluted way to achieve the same objective whilst playing with semantics.”

  171. @nota

    thanku bro once again I think both gv and me stand corrected, when I talk abt Islamic banking ineterst is one part I am talking abt whole islamic principles and just social equality and I think gv will agree with me on that taking the basis of that principle its hard to find islamic ecnomics (banking being a part ) anywhere in da world.

    I think we both were only debating the standing of reeba and legit profit making.

  172. @nota

    above comment didn’t come out the way I wanteed am too sleepy lol, wat i meant was i agree with both u and gv that current islamic banking if its only deals with interest free or name interest something else and which dun take whole islamic econmic in consideration, is not Islamic. I was debating with gv abt interest i.e reeba and legit profit making. The Islamic principlee as my understanding is profit and loss. As long as one shares in profit and also stands to loose its not reeba cuz one stand to gain and loose.

  173. @gv

    U lost me at that – ROFL
    “The MQM understands this urban agenda for reform and renewal better than any political party in the country, which is why, despite the clear and obvious threats that a free judiciary poses to the operational fidelity of the MQM, the party made a conscious decision not to allow another May 12 to transpire this March. It is also why the MQM has spoken loudly and proudly against the ridiculous handing over of Pakistani sovereignty to the Flintstones of Malakand. Most of all, the MQM’s depth of relationship with urban sentiment is evident in the starkly different rhetoric that defines engagement with the issues between Pakistan’s Gucci and Prada liberals on the one hand, and the MQM’s leadership on the other. Convening an ulema conference was a stroke of urban Pakistan genius by the party.”

    If thata all wat taliban or so called islamist have to worry then sadly they will win easily lol

  174. i said it was uplifting not entirely correct! 🙂

    but the point i agree with him is that we are a nation of 170million people and we love this country and we shouldn’t allow it to fail without putting up a fight.. i know its sentimental and soppy but nationalism is sentimental and soppy..

    p.s. i think the mqm is a weird cult which does not make rhyme nor reason and i still can’t fathom how educated professionals can support a nut job like altaf hussein.

  175. @gv

    yaar am reaching late 30’s qasam Khuda ki jab se hosh sanbhala hai yehi sunta aaraha hoon pak gay pak gaya, im reminded of hadith, if u r miliking a goat and u hear ppl screaming qayamt is coming dun stop keep milking, thats my attitude now, jo hona hoga ho rahey ga, why worry just keep thinking to make pak better. And God forbid if anything happens and pak do break so what? U think anyone on the face of the world will be in peace cuz the war Pak been fighting is saving the whole world, when the dam that is Pak bursts even the most moderate of us wil be picking gun and revenging our country. Surely u saw it in Alegiers even christians joined GIA against frech back army. I have high hopes that Pakistanis are way better then any other nation,

    zara num ho to yeh mitti baree zarkhaiz hai saqi:)

  176. this all is happening because of the historic sentence in the movie sholey of india

    Heejrhon ki fauj banai hai pakistan ne,

    The orignal dialogue was
    thakur ne gabbar ko marney kai liyeh heejhron ki fauj banai hai

    Ou main issue is the same

    Heejhron ki fauj,khassi hain yeh fauji totally incompetent and impotent

  177. For all those who deliberately hide this speech of Quiad-e-Azam. Let us see what Quaid said about inspiration from Holy Quran:

    “We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight these forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours. …….

    Along with this, keep up your morale. Do not be afraid of death. Our religion teaches us to be always prepared for death. We should face it bravely to save the honor of Pakistan and Islam. There is no better salvation for a Muslim than the death of a martyr for a righteous cause. …..

    You are made of sterling material and are second to none. Why should you also not succeed like many others, like your own forefathers. You have only to develop the spirit of the “Mujahids”. You are a nation whose history is replete with people of wonderful grit, character and heroism. Live up to your traditions and add to it another chapter of glory. ”

    Speech at a Mammoth Rally at the University
    Stadium, Lahore on 30th October. 1947 on http://www.quaid.gov.pk/speech11.htm

    What Quaid said about the “Theocratic” state, what he meant that no body is above the law like Catholic Church used to be in old times.

    If he said about the liberty of minorties to freely observe their religious right, that was nothing new as Rasool-e-Akram (PBUH) also did during the Mesaaq-e-Madina with Jew, where they as the part of the state were allowed to observe their religious rights.

  178. @razakhan
    “U lost me at that – ROFL”

    🙂
    I specially liked this bit: “despite the clear and obvious threats that a free judiciary poses to the operational fidelity of the MQM, the party made a conscious decision not to allow another May 12 to transpire this March.”

    Geez! Seems the author wants me to thank MQM for it. Also love the “obvious threats that a a free judiciary poses to the operational fidelity of the MQM”

  179. @gv
    @razakhan
    This Mosharraf Zaidi guy is hilarious!

    “Convening an ulema conference was a stroke of urban Pakistan genius by the party.” Right!!!

    Here what I find interesting is he talks about the huge success of March 15:
    “March 15 may be a long and distant memory in the newspapers, but its markings on the DNA of Pakistan are still fresh. The scars that it has left are still raw, and the traditional elite in this country has not forgotten the humiliation of that day. Both the feudal politicians and the wannabe-feudal military leaders in this country grossly mis-underestimated (a Bushism all too appropriate for this Pakistan) the size and heat of the movement to restore the judiciary.”

    But follows it with this cr@p:

    “Hence the difference between the MQM (a serious power-player in this country), and cheese and cracker liberals (a loud but politically sterile minority). As much as the lawyers’ movement was an a-religious movement, it was not amoral.”

    Wasn’t it that very “serious power-player” (that made “made a conscious decision” not to slaughter) fighting against that very movement? And wasn’t it those “cheese and cracker liberals (a loud but politically sterile minority)” the very heart of the movement that “humiliated” the “traditional elite in this country” that day?

    So who’s the pansy, Mr Mosharraf?

    Another good joke was the line:
    “Of course, the MQM represents a deeply compromised flag-bearer for the political fight against the Taliban.”

    This fella is a real comedian (and reminded me of our resident one — remember “Zardari is the Commander-in-Chief of the fight against the Establishment” bit?)

  180. @pak.nukes
    Sorry about the “absence” … the electricity situation has become terrible — one hour on — one hour off, day and night. So of course the days and nights are terrible….

  181. @nota
    So Raja Parvez Ashraf is being a super pest to you….hmmmmm too bad lets call Sufi Mohammad, our favourite leader.. 🙂

  182. @pak.nukes
    Oh no! Please don’t make me watch Zaid Hamid….AND that to with Ahmed Quraishi! Jesus Freaking Christ!!!!!!

    (On second thought, I don’t need to. I already know exactly what he is going to say) 😉

  183. @nota
    I know both of them are irritating but WATCH it….its worth watching…just don’t look at their faces.

  184. @ nota

    Although Mosharraf Zaidi’s this latest column is a bit of dampener but the guy is usually not bad. Infact his columns are generally among the better ones in The News and ususally his writings represent the aspirations of common Pakistanis.

    I guess in this column he got a bit carried away because after all he does work for a foreign DFI and belongs to the same “grammar school” minority that is aghast at the supposedly unstoppable march of taliban.

  185. @Adonis
    I guess in this column he got a bit carried away because after all he does work for a foreign DFI and belongs to the same “grammar school” minority that is aghast at the supposedly unstoppable march of taliban.”

    I say he let the mask… slip 😉

  186. Technically it feels too hard to get rid of interst but if a state decides to do it collectively then it would not be a problem. We need to understand that interest is in a favour for few (rich) and goes against the intersts of many(poors).

    A German scientist once came up with the facts and figures that if we have this interest system going on then at the end all the wealth will have its concentration with one person only. This is not very hard to see now, look at the Rockfellers, Rothchilds, how do they come up with such a wealth?

  187. @Adonis

    Its not only “Grammer School” mentality which is aghast at unstopable march of your beloved ignorant tribal beast known as Taliban
    Common Pakistani is worried to go back to stone ages.

    Probably they wipe their A$$ with stones then after wadu they are fit to pray Namaz.
    Now we common Pakistanis would learn Islam from these may be not chaaati jamat pass Taliban and their ignorant leader Sufi Mohammad.

    This is not what Quide Azam wanted
    Quide wanted a Pakistan on Quran and sunna for all Muslims, not the narrow minded wahabi version of stone age tribal ignorance.

  188. @nota

    I just finished reading the article of Mosharraf Zaidi and then I saw your comments over here. Of course, the praise of MQM was hard to digest (a more reasonable appraoch has been of Ayyaz Amir’s http://www.thenews.com.pk/arc_news.asp?id=9) but even this has a sad ring to it. I mean imagine, we have been reduced to this that MQM is making sense (admitted because of their own agenda) but what happened to the champions of left PPPs and ANPs and the centre right PML-Ns! Its hurtful and diappointing.

    To me the Flintstones in Swat are the same as MQM “kunn tuttey” – yeh hamara ilaka hai yahan sirf hamari chaley gi. Sadly, the Flinstones have so given a so called religious color to their badmashi.

  189. I am watching Live with Talat.
    His program is about Taliban’s credentials..It is so funny to know that our President and Taliban have similar educational background…Pakistan is run by people who don’t know what they are talking about… Good….wonderful conspiracy against Pakistan.
    Thank you Talat.

  190. @ Nota

    dude i reread it and i think you’re being too harsh on the guy.

    And he does criticise the MQM for a bit…

    “Of course, the MQM represents a deeply compromised flag-bearer for the political fight against the Taliban. Despite a much-reformed party agenda, the ethnic affiliation of its top leadership is an issue that has consistently kept it from growing beyond urban Sindh. Moreover, rather ironically, its political choices since 1999 have put it directly at odds with urban Punjab. Ultimately, the alliance between urban Sindh and urban Punjab is a natural and inevitable one. This inevitability was all too visible to President Asif Ali Zardari, and it is what inspired the unnatural alliance between the PPP and the MQM–two parties that were at opposite ends of the violence and mayhem of May 12.”

  191. @gv
    I think I am not seeing what you are seeing. From the piece you quoted, this bit:
    “its political choices since 1999 have put it directly at odds with urban Punjab. Ultimately, the alliance between urban Sindh and urban Punjab is a natural and inevitable one.”
    I just don’t get what he is saying. So since 1999 MQM has made choices which have put it squarely at odds with Punjab (at an increasing pace?). But “Ultimately,” he says, “the alliance between urban Sindh and urban Punjab is a natural and inevitable one.” Exactly what time frame we are talking here? And is he talking this alliance between PML-N and MQM or something beyond??? (Or God forbid, is he saying “since only Punjab and Sindh will be “left”, the “alliance” will be “natural”?)

  192. @nota

    I think he means that urban punjab and urban sindh (from a sociological perspective) are natural allies based on demographics etc

    But MQM, PMLN and PPP have prevented this alliance from taking place due to party agendas/politics

  193. i presume he is focusing on urban punjab and urban sindh as that represents the majority of the literate classes and therefore an apparent bulwark to islamic militancy???

  194. @Aneeza,

    … To me the Flintstones in Swat are the same as MQM “kunn tuttey” – yeh hamara ilaka hai yahan sirf hamari chaley gi. Sadly, the Flinstones have so given a so called religious color to their badmashi…

    Well said.

  195. @nota

    Pls watch today’s Live with Talat. He gave a brief profile of Taliban leadership. Instead of defending them on pkpolitics why don’t you go out there on field with your birgade to guide them?

  196. With due respect you did a lot of jumping from one point to other but I did not see no proper evidence or facts to back your tragic story or NOVEL.
    I respect your point of view but I strongly reject many of your personel views due to following reasons AND I CHALLENGE YOU WITH FACTS.

    1. The war / conflict really started due to 9/11. Who was and is really behind 9/11. If i believe the us govt version then i have to reject the basic laws of physics and bases of chemistry. Therefore as a man of reason i stick with laws of physics and bases of chemistry.
    I personally chanllenge you and anyone anywhere in the world to prove me wrong that some can cutters bring down the twin towers. I am not sure who is in the state of denial,” the one who is blind or the one who donot have the vision.”
    2. Check us history after 1856 till now.
    3. Cia assesment about wmd in iraq. They proved wrong and more than half a million civilian people have been slaughtered. Did cia knew it or cia did not know it or they knew it but deliberatly lied in un when collin powell given his so called historic speech in un and lied to the whole world while cia director george j tenet was sitting behind him.
    4. Sadam was charged for killing of kurds by chemical weapons. Who provided the chemical weapons to sadam? Hmmm let me think was it usa and rumsfeld made the deal.
    5. Is there about 10 more or less indian consulates in afghanistan. If yes, then what they are doing giving visas to millions of indians. Are there many indians in afghanistan that they need these many consulates.
    6. Talibans are so bad that during reagon adminstartion they went to usa and stayed there for four days as vip people. Why they went there and why us govt treated them as vip. Something has to do with us unicol.
    I guess 6 questions are enough for you. Do the independent search. Once you are done with your search then please share your results on pk politics. Till then good luck.

    (Don’t use all CAPS next time. -Edit.)

  197. @nota

    Samad has written an excellent article. I agree with him that Jamatias and religious types have a blind spot when it comes to Taliban. Commendable that they supported the judiciary movement but where is their protest when Sufi Muhammad declares the parliament, judiciary, constitution, electricity, cars, razos and the ceiling fan as غیر شرعی.

    I am curious to know your take on the Taliban. I think Pakistan as we have known since 1971 is going to disappear fast. The Taliban are the termite which is going to hollow out this country. They are going to make us a dead husk of a state where these vermin can crawl and multiply. I am thinking of doing a write up with extensive research into similar phenomena worldwide (Khmer Rouge, Year Zero, Cultural Revolution, FARC, Somalia, etc) and end with an extrapolation of possible scenarios.

    If the army couldn’t beat them in Swat, what’s to prevent them declaring us all infidels in Lahore and Multan and invading these cities, decapitating local political leaders, instituting jirgas and delcaring women illegal? How will the military fight then? What silver bullet have they for Punjab and Sindh? Do they think Tahiul Padri, Sunni Tehrik and Barelvi molvis will fight these barbarians back? Don’t think so. This is the beginning of the end. Every choice we make, every day that passes, brings us closer to the end of Pakistan as we have known it. I expect a period of 3-5 years to the final Curtain Call for Pakistan.

    If you don’t agree, what are your reasons? Do you agree with the Taliban? Do you think the events foreseen in this article will not happen? Do you think the Taliban will act like cute gummy bears when they have full power?

    Maybe the Taliban won’t do all these things. But their actions so far provide convincing proof of what they want. They have already done it in Afghanistan. Now they are doing it in Swat. And they are on to Buner, Mianwala, Hazarajat and DI Khan. Next: South Punjab and Sindh.

    And you must come out with a detailed and unequivocal answer. Don’t be like @peja for the PPP. Don’t be like @Recyclist for Khali Lifafah.

  198. @mbokhari

    U might have difference with JI but plz read newspapers and get ur facts straight. JI didn’t particpate in APC on SWAT, the only party that didn’t work on Nifaz-e-adl, they welcomed it as a tool to regain lost ground, plz also read Munawwar hassan, ameer JI statement today where he has openly advised sufi mohammad to not call any fatwas and totally rejected the claims of ghair sharai and kafir parliment and adlia by sufi mohammad.

    U disagree with JI is ur democratic right, but atleast plz get the facts right and criticize them for something they have done instead of blaming them for something they haven’t done.

    Regarding ur qts abt Taliban nota can answer if he wants but i suggest u read previous posts and other posts u will get all the answers.

  199. Who killed most people in the world in recent history.
    The fisrt and the last nuclear attack so far was done by …USA. How many millions were killed. were they civilian? were they humans? what was their crime? or JUST A COLLATERAL DAMAGE ? AS i SMIRKED AND THOUGHT “ARE WE SAFE.”

    YOU KNOW WHY US USED ATOMIC BOMB AT JAPAN COZ THEY KNEW JAPAN DONOT HAVE ONE.

    DONOT BE A CHAMPION OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE WORLD IF YOUR OWN PAST AND PRESENT FILLED WITH INNOCENT HUMAN BLOOD UP TO YOUR NECKS.

    Let me clear myself. most of the US adminstration is wrong and bad but most of the people of US are good human.

  200. @razakhan

    I agree that JI has been making all the right noises. I seem to remember they made the same noises before Lal Masjid but could not convince the ملا برقعہ پوش to come out.

    My questions relate not to the NAR in Swat and neither to the flogging video. I am concerned more about the larger picture.

    Yes, the NAR in Swat may be constitutional after all. Yes, the flogging video may perhaps be fake.

    I simply want to know this: What about the murder of a rival mullah in FATA, digging of his grave and the hanging of his body. What about the suicide attacks on hospitals? What about the suicide attacks on funerals of victims of suicide attacks? What about the attack on the Manawan police academy? Or a the GOR in Lahore? Or a hundred other attacks? Remember those?

    Their argument runs like this: US sends drones. Pak army allows it. Pakistani people allows this. Ergo, they are all kafir and wajibul qatl. Their blood and life are no more sacred and indeed worthy of paradise. So, instead of going to Afghanistan and fighting the infidel, we will kill and subjugate the 170 million infidels here.

    Mullah Sufi Muhammad, the great peacemaker, was the one who started this shit storm in the 1990s. Who says he was peaceful? Read up on Akbar S. Ahmad’s books. (Here and here.)

    Simply put, my question is: How will you counter those who have taken up arms against the state and have not been vanquished? The Bengalis got what they wanted: Bangladesh. The Taliban too will get what they want. Just keep listening to Taliban @pejas and you will see. They will keep advocating dialogue, dialogue untill the Taliban reach Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi. haha….The Arab, the camel and his tent all over again.

    The end is nigh. I am resigned to a philosophical detachment from it all but I must admit, I have started feeling a bit nostalgic when I read old newspaper reports of effective Army action and brutality that actually succeeded in putting down revolts. Those were the days, weren’t they?

  201. When I start writing here, I come to know few posters who were against Tahirul what they call Padri.
    This guy aka Tahirul Padri can not make enemies for his non violent preachings and non violent character.
    One has to be his enemy only and only if he is narrow minded hardcore wahabi infected with severe indigestion for anything other than his faith and visiting Mazars give them big cramping indigestion.
    This group of poster never were forthcoming in their beliefs and idealogy, on issue to issue basis they kept their Talibani secret and played both side 0f fences.

    Recent encouraging developments in Malakand and Sawat has given them courage to come forward in open.

  202. @mbokhari

    I share your concerns. There is some hope a positive change that I will try to bring up. Before IMC’s restoration this site, the media at large in Pakistan was almost entirely focused on his restoration. I had nothing against his restoration. My only concern was his restoration is not Pakistan’s THE ISSUE. If he comes back Sharif brothers will be back in political map legeally Mushraaf was already out. Minus BB politically we will be back to 90’s. IMC’s restoration through movement against establishment’s wishes gave us some satisfaction but practically not much is changed. Nevertheless I am glad he is restored cuz now media, politicians and masses at large can focus on real issue TALIBAN.

    Now a days 80% of talk shows on TV and columns in news paper discuss these issues. Leaders like Nawaz Sharif can not dodge this question any more. Imran Khan never dodged this question he was always openly pro Taliban. But as Taliban gets more and more powerful it will be hard for JI and IK to defend them. His best defence is there were no Talibans before 2004. My friend there was no Imran Khan before 1953. Things change. Politicians are there to tackle current issues not reiterating their wishes to reverse the clock few years back.

    Today Talat presented brief profiles of Taliban leadership. On the average their education is middle school with no formal religious education. I fail to understand how an Oxford graduate is compaigning to come under their rule?

    Things have moved in positive direction on this site, in media in last month or so. I am hoping this positive change will unite our nation to fight against Taliban. For haven’s sake its not US vs Taliban as Taliban has successfully sold so far. After this war is over and is Talibans are defeated America’s influence in Pakistan will not be more than what we have seen for last 62 years. But if we lost to Taliban Pakistan will not be much different than present Afghanistan or any war torn country in Africa.

  203. @ jazoo

    Not onlly wahabis but most sunnis also hate Tahirul Qadri. What percentage of sunni vote Tahirul Qadri ever got? This guy has absolutely nothing to do with religion. His only aim is personal glory.

    He is similar to Altaf Hussain in that both are narcissist egomaniacs. Only difference is that Altaf used ethnicity as his platform and Tahirul Qadri used religion.

    People who know Tahirul Qadri from his law college days have many colourful tales to tell about him.

  204. these bastards should be killed, by F16 or JF17 , immediately but the problem is that they are hidding among civlians, but i can suggest one thing that government should deploye lot of intelligencies and get all the intelligence about them and arrest or kille them, gov should say that nizam shariat is valid but they should immediately start miltary action against them, saying we r providing what peopel r asking but cant let down our arms in the front of talibs, in this way they will be able to get public support. i think gov is also thinking in these lines and everybody knew it taht this system will not work but for getting public support they did this, now this is enough like they r not respecting what was decided and going to buner and other areas so this is time to take action, but gov have succeded in its bet and is geting support even from mullahs who r saying that suffi is crossing limits, we should hope for the best and keep confidence in our selves and gov and army, inchallah results will come

  205. @mbokhari,

    Whatever is happening in Pakistan is exactly as predicted by analysts during 2001. Former IB Chief said that he published article that there will be 2 Taliban Governments in few years, one in Afghanistan and other in Pakistan if we extended the War of Terror.

    No one defends Taliban for what they do, but everyone needs to have little bit longer memory and focus to cure the root cause of cancer (Taliban) in society rather than just focus on killing them.

    When there were suicide bombers in Vietnam or Japan, they were never labeled as religious fanatics. But the civilized world labels Palestinian Suicide bombers as Islamic Terrorists.

    Similarly, there were no Madrasas or Terrorist training camps in Iraq ever and yet they produced hundreds of Suicide bombers. But when there are suicide bombs in Pakistan, we blame them on Religious fanatics and madrasas rather than thinking that there might be injustice or some political reason behind this. The west wanted us to think this way and they have succeeded.

    Now another favorite logic of other side is why Taliban kill our Army and our policemen? Well the Taliban or extremist kill our Army for the same reason the Iraqi extremists kill Iraqi Army or policemen, as they see them as collaborators of Americans who are killing civilians everyday.

    Everything is possible through dialogue and both side should exercise patience and ignore the stupid statements for greater cause as a tactic.

    The strategy should be to focus on winning hearts and minds of people in troubled areas in next 10 years and implement a model Judicial and Social system on our side to gain trust of people in troubled areas.

  206. @Adonis

    People do change, Molana Madudi(Rehmatullah) had his days in youth.

    His personal flaws are not known to me , none of us are perfect.
    I find nothing wrong with his preaching, he glorify the Prophet(saw) after that if he has left some ego of his own is not bothering me..

    He is not a well established political party, he won the elction on his own and thats sunni vote.

  207. @Kashif

    The problem of sovereignty started the day Mush allowed drone attacks. Question is: Would the US have risked an all out war with Pakistan if the pansy Generals had said NO?

    I believe the answer to that question is a resounding NO. The US would not have been willing to declare open war on Pakistan. The most they would have done was to threaten Mush with sanctions, support BB and try to topple Musharraf. In essence, the drone attacks were allowed to commence to keep Musharraf, the dog, in power.

    Now, after the Swat deal and the coming deal with Baitullah Mehsud, we have effectively lost sovereignty in PATA and FATA. The barbarians have been successful and they will not stop at anything. I take it as a given that a Revolution is coming which will bring blood, tears and iron to all of remaining Pakistan. And there is naught that can be done to stanch the wounds it will inflict.

    It will be class warfare clothed in religious propaganda. The many poor and illiterate against the few educted/rich. The Swat paradigm will shift to Jhang, Multan, DG Khan, Nawabshah and Sukkur. The political parties will be decimated and/or co-opted, leaders assassinated and jigas instituted. They will start in the rural areas with full-on sectarianism, overwhelm the police and the local thana. Expect kidnapping and intimidation of the police and the local authorities like the DCOs, Nazims etc. The power structure at grass roots levels is going to see a radical decomposition and transformation.

    With growing lawlessness, will come growing state repression in an effort to stem the tide. More repression=more martyrs=more sympathy for the Taliban cause. It will be a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The more Pakistan becomes a dystopia, the more seductive Taliban utopia will appear.

    میر بھی کیا سادہ ھیں، بیمار ھوئے جن کے سبب
    اُنہی عطار کے لونڈوں سے دوا لیتے ھیں

  208. Stop doing america’s bidding and then the mindset will change, show some will power, that’s what leaders of countries are suppose to do. Stop the drone attacks and get the government to declare a ceasefire and give this time to work.

    If the taliban still continue with they murderous ways then you will have some ground to stand on and take them on. At the moment just like mush the current government is trying to stay goody goody with the yanks just to earn dollars for they personal accounts to get even larger and not really giving a dime about the innocent people being killed.

  209. @rasheed,

    No one defends Taliban for what they do, but everyone needs to have little bit longer memory and focus to cure the root cause of cancer (Taliban) in society rather than just focus on killing them.

    I think we have established that they cannot be killed/defeated. It seems we have Hadiqa KIYANI in charge instead of the other chap 🙂

    When there were suicide bombers in Vietnam or Japan, they were never labeled as religious fanatics. But the civilized world labels Palestinian Suicide bombers as Islamic Terrorists.

    Boo hoo! bad civilized world! The ‘civilized world’ does it for a very good reason. The Japanese warriors were Kamikaze warriors dying for the glory of Japan and the rule of the Emperor for 10,000 years (Bansai charge!). Viet Cong were revolutionary communists. You forgot the original suicide bombers: The Tamil tigers of LTTE. NONE of them used religion to justify the suicide bombing. Only we Muslims do it. In Palestine, in Iraq, in Algeria, in Jodan, in Lebanon, in Afghanistan and now in Pakistan.

    Hallelujah for the OIC. We have one more common value in addition to the honor killings.

    Similarly, there were no Madrasas or Terrorist training camps in Iraq ever and yet they produced hundreds of Suicide bombers. But when there are suicide bombs in Pakistan, we blame them on Religious fanatics and madrasas rather than thinking that there might be injustice or some political reason behind this. The west wanted us to think this way and they have succeeded.

    Iraq started producing suicide bombers as soon as Alqaida infiltrated the Sunni Arab movement for hegemony in Iraq: The Iraqi Resistance. Like they infiltrated the Pashtun movement for hegemony in Afghanistan: Taliban.

    Now another favorite logic of other side is why Taliban kill our Army and our policemen? Well the Taliban or extremist kill our Army for the same reason the Iraqi extremists kill Iraqi Army or policemen, as they see them as collaborators of Americans who are killing civilians everyday.

    Fine. But what about the young police recruits, the rival Mullahs of opposite sects, the Shia funerals, hospitals, girls schools, CD shops, barbers. That’s right, the barbers and CD shop owners were collaborating with the American occupation forces. Right. Just slipped my mind. Damn those haircutting, iPod listening, getting-sick-and-going-to-hospital, book-reading, dead-relative-having KUFFAAAR!….Damn them all to hell…

    I think if the glorious liberators of Islam continue like this, we may soon see the final eradication of other Ghair Shar’ii vices like nail-biting, long hair, laziness, overeating, lack of exercise and bad hygiene.

    Everything is possible through dialogue and both side should exercise patience and ignore the stupid statements for greater cause as a tactic.

    Dialogue is between equals. Taliban have beaten the might Pak Fauj. Pakistan army has proven that they cannot win any wars. We are the new paratha-eating-surrender-monkeys. A state imposes its will, OR, compromises from a position of strength. Would have been OK to negotiate after the murdering monkey had been exterminated. As it stands, the murdering monkeys have broken through the zoo that is FATA and the army wants to offer them bananas hoping they would stop. haha…Pakhair Raghlay in Buner. Ji ayaN Noo in Jhang. Sat Bismillah in Multan, Aji Mizaj-dushaman to theek hai? in Karachi 🙂

    The strategy should be to focus on winning hearts and minds of people in troubled areas in next 10 years and implement a model Judicial and Social system on our side to gain trust of people in troubled areas.

    Fat chance as long as PPP is in power. The battle is lost now. The war shall soon be lost as well. Will be mighty good of the Taliban if they spare Punjab and Sindh. I bet you will see the perennial lota-ness of Punjabi politicians in trying to ingratiate themselves with the coming Taliban overlords.

    To modify the Simpsons quote:

    Ladies and gentlemen, er, we’ve just lost the picture, but, uh, what we’ve seen speaks for itself. The FATA and Swat have been taken over — “conquered”, if you will — by a master race of giant mudering Beards. It’s difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume the captive Pakistanis or merely lash them. One thing is for certain, there is no stopping them; the Beards will soon be here.

    And I, for one, welcome our new Beard overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted Internet commentator, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground emerald caves.

  210. @mbokhari

    I don’t want to argue too much with you as by enlarge we do have agreement. But I do want to point out one observation where I think we are not on same page. NOt that it matters but still I want to bring it up.

    After 911 I believe even if we had Imran Khan, Qazi , Nawaz Sharif, BB or any other general he/she would have taken same decision as Mushraaf. I am sure the decision to go with US after 911 was collectively taken by Army leadership and same military leadership would have advised any politician running the country then.

    The war is mismanaged later on multiple times but I don’t think that decision was wrong. I have same feelings about first Afghan war against Russia.

    Pakistan by choice or by virtue of its geographic proximity was force to play bigger role on international stage than our resources. We are paying price for it. We are in the conflict that we didn’t start or we can not end.

  211. @mbokhari

    “The problem of sovereignty started the day Mush allowed drone attacks. Question is: Would the US have risked an all out war with Pakistan if the pansy Generals had said NO?
    I believe the answer to that question is a resounding NO. The US would not have been willing to declare open war on Pakistan. The most they would have done was to threaten Mush with sanctions, support BB and try to topple Musharraf. In essence, the drone attacks were allowed to commence to keep Musharraf, the dog, in power.”

    I agree. The Yankees had their hands full in Iraq and wouldn’t drag themselves into another adventure. Had they been willing they would maybe have chosen Iran instead. Don’t they represent a “mad-mullah” regime? Don’t they “hate” the western way of life? AT least the western politicians love to say so.

    Thanks to Moshe the pak army was very “successful” to increase the numbers of Taliban many times. The longer we stay there the more they will become. The only solution is to have
    – peace
    – marginalise Taliban
    – offer something better than what they say they want
    – eliminate the few remaining criminal elements

    It’s not a short time solution ( I don’t think there is a short time solution).

  212. @mbokhari

    We have a different view on drone attacks as well. US is targetting militants through drone attacks cuz Pakistan Army is not able to handle them. If we have militants on our land who are plotting attacks against west and we are not able to stop them. America and NATO has every right to target them. America has respected our so called soverignty for 6 years prior to drone attacks and is still respecting it by not launching ground offensive. In next 6 months or so if our Army keep double crossing them drone attacks will be changed into ground operations. India was on the verge of surgical strikes after Mumbai attacks but America and west stopped them. If NATO and America wants to do that who will stop them, China? I don’t think any one.

    I don’t know why public is so much against drone attacks. Drone attacks are against militants in our border areas who are targeting our civilians and soldiers deep inside Pakistan. I agree there is a colateral demage during drone attacks well so is during suside attacks by militants. Drone attacks will be stopped if our Army effectively launches compaign against militants. If they can’t US has every moral right to do so. As I said I won’t be surprised if we see more ground and air offensives by NATO in few months. Non state actors in our state is still our responsibility.

  213. @Shirkuh

    The problem is the Americans aren’t going anywhere. They will be defeated in Afghanistan but after they leave, what will become of us? Tera kia banega kaalia? Taliban hordes will be upon the rural areas of Pakistan.

    The FATA and PATA have a real colonial mindset.Even in the days of political agents, the state needed to be vengeful and punished all who defied it. Now there are no more Maliks and political agents. We use to put Mehsuds and Wazirs against each other. Now they are united in murdering us for pleasing Allah. They have ruined the nomal economies of their areas and the only recourse for employmen there is going to be drugs and weapons. The Taliban will take a cut of all. Remember the emerald mine thing? They are integrating their operations with the local economy.

    I mentioned Akbar S. Ahmad in a post above. He served as a political agent. He wrote these books in early 80s. Take a gander.

    Here and here

    Pakistan is lost unless Pak Army takes a stand against both the US and the Taliban. After rebuffing the US, or at least by stopping the drone raids and the NATO traffic, the government needs to move against these Black Ants with extreme prejudice and enforce its writ. They claim the government is Kafir because it collaborates? Fine. Take a stand against the US. Take the argument away from these murderers. And then kill them with complete vengeance.

  214. I agree that we MUST take a stand against the Yankees otherwise we will be even more doomed than we are already.

    I am not sure an all out vengeance policy would work. I think it will back fire unless we have “carrot and stick” policy. We have to offer an alternative to what the Taliban has to offer. Until now we have only offered the chaos that exists in the rest of Pakistan.

  215. @mbokhari,

    I agree with most of the things and will reply in details. But what do you think about the fact that when Taliban were the strongest and ruling a complete country, we did not feel threatened that they will invade Pakistan. In fact it was the most Pakistan friendly government we had in Afghanistan.

    Taliban used to even fly their airlines to other countries and no one felt threatened, but as soon as we have similar situation in PATA, we feel threatened?

  216. @Kashif

    Fine. We cannot protect our borders. But allowing drone attacks at the cost of our country is a bad deal. Pakistan is more precious. We are being ripped off in the bargain.

    Maybe a political government would have done things similarly.

    My point is only that we have lost already to the Taliban. Would it not have been more honorable to at least stand up to the US. They wouldn’t have attacked us anyway. Topple Mush? maybe. But the losses we have sustained and will suffer in the future far outweigh any benefits of allying with the US so overtly. The Taliban are going to overrun the rural areas of Pakistan and exploit the class differnces. I have it from personal sources about South Punjab and how the Talitubbies have started their propaganda in small towns through taking over mosques, beating away the Barelvi Mullahs and intimidating barbers and CD shop owners. They have in fact started recruiting the youth of small chak no. x, y, z into their madrassa network using the Sipah Sahaba and Lashkar Jhangvi front men.

    Chicken coming home to roost is a tired cliche but increasingly rings true.

    I say, enjoy the ride as long as it lasts. Soon all educated Pakistanis will be applying for asylum to the west and the poor ones will become the new boat people in the Persian gulf, landing on the shores of Iran and Dubai.

  217. Kashif=Haqqani wrote:

    “I don’t know why public is so much against drone attacks. Drone attacks are against militants in our border areas who are targeting our civilians and soldiers deep inside Pakistan. I agree there is a colateral demage during drone attacks well so is during suside attacks by militants. Drone attacks will be stopped if our Army effectively launches compaign against militants. If they can’t US has every moral right to do so. As I said I won’t be surprised if we see more ground and air offensives by NATO in few months. Non state actors in our state is still our responsibility.”

    Shameless pos (pos=piece of sh!t). I expect such statements from the enemies of Pakistan.

  218. @mbokhari

    First of all we haven’t allowed drone attacks they are forced on us. They don’t care we like it or not this is there solution if we don’t have solution.

    Your other argument that we have lost to Taliban so we should fight Americans. Do you think between Taliban/alqaida and US/NATO America is a weaker link so we should stand against them?

  219. @kashif is another extreme

    I agree with mbokhari, USA would not have ball to go on full fledge war on Pakistan, a nuclear state.

    Two powerful men may fight each other with hands but if one is weak & he had access to a gun and he is cornerd, he will use it.

    Kashif may be crazy but USA is not

  220. @rasheed,

    when Taliban were the strongest and ruling a complete country, we did not feel threatened that they will invade Pakistan. In fact it was the most Pakistan friendly government we had in Afghanistan.

    A minor correction if I may.

    During the height of their power, the Talitubbies were still fighting over Mazar-e-Shareef. They still hadn’t conquered the Dari-speaking northern areas of Afghanistan. Ahmad Shah Masood was still alive. Hekmatyar was still alive.

    Point is, there agenda in Afghanistan was incomplete. Pakistan was helping them and they needed this help. But I salute the audacity, beghairti and namak-harami of these Afghans that with 3 millions of their fellow dirt-scavengers begging and selling their women on Pakistani streets, they had the impudence to deny the Durand line. You may remember the event of shaving the heads of visting Pakistani team (soccer it was I believe) for wearing shorts. I remember they beat some other people on the border for wearing leather jackets which they considered haraam.

    And these were the Afghan Taliban.

    We are now dealing with the PAKISTANI taliban. Two different animals. During the Taliban era in Af., we had te MALIKS and political agents in Pakistan. Nobody had stirred the pot and everything was hunky dory.

    Now, the traditional power structure has been completely uprooted in FATA and PATA and Swat. This was NOT the situation in the 90s.

    The Taliban in Af don’t need our help. The Taliban in Pak want to take over Pakistan. They do not need any help.

    They are brave warriors who only fear Almighty Gun and seek help from Almighty Heroin.

    The Sharia of the Pakistani Taliban is,

    نصر من الھیروئن والکلاشنکوف و فتح قریب

  221. @mbokhari,

    You may remember the event of shaving the heads of visting Pakistani team (soccer it was I believe) for wearing shorts.

    I can’t write as well as you can, but I can give you similar Motawaism examples in Saudi and world does not care about that even today and many Halal things are also Haram in Saudi. But even Saudis are progressing and laws are relaxing due to globalization. I don’t see why Afghanistan would had gone in the other direction.

    You can’t expect that after several decades of war, Taliban would have taken over in Afghanistan and would have brought a liberal government immediately. The main thing was that they disarmed and stopped bloodshed in 95% of Afghanistan and Ahmed Shah Masood was cornered and would had fallen sooner or later.

    I am not sure about FATA, but I have personally visited PATA many times in 90s and I never felt any difference between governments in NWFP and PATA. May be I did not look deep, but I did not see MALIKS in PATA and saw normal government system as in other parts of Pakistan. I also heard a news yesterday and that TNSM had a fight with a group claiming to be Taliban.

    I personally have faith that this Nizam-e-Adl will work and TNSM guys will disarm the extremists in Swat. I also believe that Pakistani Taliban led by Baitullah Masood etc are remote controlled.

  222. @ALL
    On the heroin issue I think the facts are that heroin production was at its lower level during the Taliban rule than during NATO and karzai rule.

    We should be in favor or against anyone according to issue to issue bases.

    Might someone’s stand is right on one issue and not necesarily is right on the other issue.

    So we cannot say about Taliban that whatever they are doing is right or whatever they are doing is wrong.

    we should support our rehtoric with facts and evidences either in favor or against anyone.

  223. @ Rasheed thanx for sharing that info:

    Now the questions are that if the production is increased nowadays in Afghanistan under karzai and NATO then:

    1. who is cultivating opium now?
    2. why its production is increasing?
    3. who is supervising and giving protection to opium growers?
    4. who is buying it from farmers and then transporting it to other countries, like Europe USA etc. and who really can transport drugs out of Afghanistan so easily?
    5. who is benefitting from the money? It worth in BILLIONS and not only few but a lot of BILLIONS

    HAVE WE SEARCHED ABOUT THAT???????????? STOP WASTING TIME ON LETTING EACH OTHER DOWN IN YOUR COMMENTS AND START THINKING ON REAL THINGS.

    FIRST OF ALL I APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE I HAVE OFFENDED.

    Please share your knowledge and info to each other.

  224. @Shirkuh

    What a coincedence. I also think the radiacls views that you and your leader IK propogates can’t be of friends of Pakistan.

  225. @jazoo

    I am crazy but not US 🙂

    No one is crazy here they are obliged to protect their citzens. If alqaida is poltting attacks against US and west its very logical they will confront them with all their military, political and economic might, wouldn’t you?

  226. @Kashif

    You really need to brush up on history mate. Can you explain what has Southern America done to USA? Why has American meddled in so much there? Preparing some death squads, toppling govts, installing puppets, and all the nefarious things one can imagine?

    Most recently I see all the hijackers were Iraqies so Bush had to invade Iraq to prevent another imminent strike, right? Even American govt. acknowledges WMD’s was fake stuff.

    What will it take for you to realize that?

  227. U.S. Department of State U.K. Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    March 11, 2008
    2
    o According to the 2008 ORAS, three formerly major poppy-growing
    provinces – Balkh, Badakhshan, and Nangarhar – have slashed or
    eliminated cultivation altogether.
    o As demonstrated by the map below, poppy cultivation is now confined
    almost entirely to Afghanistan’s insecure South, where it helps fund the
    Taliban and other insurgent and criminal groups and where the Islamic
    Republic of Afghanistan has difficulty delivering counternarcotics
    programs.
    Myth: Afghan poppy is only grown by poor farmers.
    Fact:
    The poor farmers in Afghanistan’s mountainous North and East who grew
    poppy two to three years ago have now mostly stopped, as security,
    governance and development opportunities have improved in these areas. In
    the South, where most of the poppy is now grown, cultivation is organized by
    wealthy traffickers and big landowners who plant poppy because of high
    profits and the absence of law enforcement in insecure areas.

    Read this carefully not the 2004 report with the graph, posted above

    “where it helps fund the
    Taliban and other insurgent and criminal groups ‘

    This is now. Why Taliban are using the Heroin Trade now to advance their criminal activities
    simple all is politics. They believe in nothing but Politics of convenience.

    Now I want to see a Graph of Girls Schools closed or Bombed under Taliban…

    That is more important . Educating Your mothers and daughters is more important you misguided Fools.

  228. @msohail83

    Instead of teaching me history lessons please focus on this very issue. I never said US has done everything right. As a super power they have their share of shameful decisions that I can not and do not want to defend. Iraq war is part of those indefensibles. I only said US attacked Afghanistan after alqaida attacked them. They left the region by choice after defeating Russians. They were forced back in the region by Taliban. Had Taliban not sheltered alqaeda and handed him over and abolished alqaida after 911 US would not have entered in our region.

  229. @jutt kharak thanx for sharing info
    but US department and UK both are not independent sources.

    If we believe what they said then:

    1. production should reduce but it is increasing on the other hand.

    2.Lets assume if opium is cultivating in insecure areas where talibans are in charge then why NATO is not destroying these crops. NATO has all the means to destroy the opium crops either by GREAT DRONES , chemicals , phosphorous to burn etc. Talibans cannot move crops from one place to other to save crops or crops cannot go on hiding on their own.

    3. Lets assume if Talibans are cultivating but how they are increasing their production. Who they are selling and who is paying them BILLIONS of dollars or let me ask who can pay them??

    4. From where it has been transporting out of Afghanistan and to where?

    5. production should decrease as you said that poor farmers have stopped 3 / 4 years ago.

    6. Girls schools closed or bombed under Taliban or they were bombed during curfew times.. have someone searched about that or have independent info.

    7. Education is very important for everyone regardless of anyone ‘s gender.

    8. who are misguided FOOLS? Taliban or NATO

  230. @BABU FROM USA,NATO is fool and taliban not,bloody hell,are you crazy.the bloody taliban who killed innocent people,digged the graves,hanged corpses on poles,bombed schools,lashed inoocent girls,bombed shrines,,bombed cd shops and barber shops,bombed jirgas,bombed mosques.they are so beasts they even bombed funeral gahrings.u saying these bloody rascles are right what sort of mentality u got.cleaning gora peoples tiolets made u sick,come here and live in swat.

  231. Admin,

    Can we change the subject and discuss today’s news about the release of 9 more of our students who were held by the British Government. This should be big news to us as the Brits made such a lot of noise when they were arrested. PM Brown had the audacity to call our illiterate President.

    At the very least we should ask the British Prime Minister to officially apologize and our media (TV & Newspapers) should bor the sake of everyone in Pakistan make noise about this incident. We should point out at all levels that actions like these creates terrorists.

    It is bad enough to survive abroad as a Pakistani but these paronoid actions of foreign governments does not make it easy for us. Regreatably our timid ministers, ambassodars etc are not going to make noise but we should. Remember the Indian doctor who was arrested in Australia and then send home. Australians had to apologize afterwards and readmit him later.

    That is what we should ask. Apology and readmission of these students.

  232. @Babu from USA

    Funny enough. You chose to live in a country who you do not trust at all. Why you left your beloved country to migrate to the ‘Shaitaan’ Country. You are a Hypocrite, OR perhaps you are typing all this from the scenic valley of Swat under the able guidance of your spiritual leadr Sufi Mohammed?

    Pun aside. all the points you make 1. 2. 3. … Show how bad a lawyer you would have been ,thank God you are just a blogger…

    We have become like ‘Shuter Murghs’ . When the storm comes, we bury our head in the sand.

    If you don’t know the simple fact that Taliban are against women’s education, I wonder what else you don’t know?

  233. @democrate
    I guess the issue was opium production. I will not use abusive language and I forgive you what you have said about me(BOHTAN). Read my other comments above the last one you read.
    When and where I said killing of innocent is good by taliban, hanging corpses on poles or trees is good, flogging girls is great, or bombing shrines ,cd shops, barbers, jirgas, mosques,funerals and imam barghas or any other place is GREAT serve to the mankind. YOU HAVE ASSUMED ALL THIS ABOUT ME AND YOU ARE SO WRONG.

    I am not sure what you mean by gora people toilets, is there any kala people toilet or brown people toilet or any other color people toilet. I never heard of any paitent or person become sick by cleaning toilets.

    I think if someone needs to loose its TAKABOR (pride) should clean anyone’s toilet. Especially clean any Masjid’s toilets for good deeds.

    BROTHER IF YOU ANY ISSUE TO BE DISCUSSED THEN PLEASE BRING IT ON>>>>

  234. @ Jutt Kharak

    Do you have any thing better than personal attacks. i DONOT WANNA WASTE MY TIME BY DOING THE SAME.

    1. When I said I donot trust the country at ALL. When I said it is shaaitan country.
    There is difference between country, people living in that country, and government of that country etc. Even in one of my above comment I mentioned that majority of American people are good people. BUT I AM AGAINST US GOVT POLICIES ESPECIALLY TOWARDS OTHER NATIONS NOT NECESSARILY AGAINST PAKISTAN ALONE. I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THOSE POLICIES THOSE ARE BAISED OR DOUBLE STANDERED ON ISSUE TO ISSUE BASES.

    2. I am not in swat and sufi Mohammad is not my spirtual leader. I donot agree with all or whatever he is saying. But I donot disagree also with all or whatever he is saying simply coz he has beard and he wears shilwar kamiz. whatever is right is right and whatever is wrong is wrong.

    3. 1 2 3 what about 45678. I am not saying or pressuring others that I am 100% right. There is possibility that my info could be wrong but I just try for the right info.
    NO ONE HAS ALL THE KNOWLEDGE AND NO ONE HAS 100% ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE EXCEPT THE ALMIGHTY THE SUPREME ALLAH- TAALA.

    4. You said about storm, first we need to find out what kind of storm is coming. One should be prepared according to the storm and always.

    5. In Islam education is compulsary upon men and women who can deny that???

  235. if taliban brought cultivation of opiun dwon so what this is not a big deal.they always try to crush opponents,made life hell for manorities,closed girls school,forced women to stay at home,give refuge to hardcore crimnal,open terror camps.they did,nt open a single university,built new hospital or raod.then they did,nt defended their country.allied forces captured kabul with out firing a single bullet.shamefull coward.they can only fight hiding in caves and mountains.they are just docaites like pholin devi.

  236. @mbokhari
    “I simply want to know this: What about the murder of a rival mullah in FATA, digging of his grave and the hanging of his body. What about the suicide attacks on hospitals? What about the suicide attacks on funerals of victims of suicide attacks? What about the attack on the Manawan police academy? Or a the GOR in Lahore? Or a hundred other attacks? Remember those?”

    Answer is very simple, just say Allah’s name before killing and it will becomes halal for you (seen those throat slitting videos shouting “Allah o Akabr” before their witchcraft rituals??). 🙂 all these pkpolitics khuarjies could justify it day in day out with same arguments and we baboo could never understand it.

    I never gave up on Pakistan but I think I agree its beginning of the end, with this impotent army (in 4 years not even a single khuarji leader been captured or killed!!!!!) and politicians we are done. I have been saying that after Sawat they would open another front and they have already taking control of Buner? what next? Haripur and then Islamabad??? but for our hijra army and politicans “hunooz dilli door ast”

  237. @all,

    For the love of this country that we call our home, can we just pause and really look at the underlying issues behind not just the extremism in FATA, PATA but also at the growing strength of separation movement in Balochistan? DO we have it in us to reach some basic understanding and be more productive in suggesting any solution? Please.

    Can we agree that:

    1. The state in Pakistan has failed, its institutions are corrput and has alienated a large majority of the population.

    2. the political system has been exclusive domain of a certain class and has failed to deliver to the masses.

    3. given the vaccum, as is evident from history, fringe forces with their extremist agendas become mainstream.

    Can we agree on these basic underlying principles before going on to suggest what to do about it?

  238. @rasheed, savage

    The situation in Malakand can be put in two verses. (which are not Pushto btw :D)

    لر شہ پخاورتا قمیص تور مالا روڑہ
    تازہ تازہ بم در ماں لاکنڈ، ماں لا روڑہ

    Just read today’s The News. Read Klasra, Ansar Abbasi, Zafar Hilali and Maleeha Lodhi. Read and weep and curse Iqbal for dreaming it up in the first place.

    I remember an episode during the ’71 war narrated in some book. When the eastern command was surrounded, the people of West Pakistan would gather around their radios at night to hear the news. Radio Pakistan would tally up the body count of rebels and Indian agents and broadcast the ‘sab acha hai’. BBC, on the other hand, would give the accurate picture of the perilous position of Pak Army and the ravages of the Mukti Bahini. The narrator (Qudrutullah Shahab?) explained people’s reaction to the conflicting reports. I paraphrase from memory:

    جب مشرقی پاکستان میں حالات خراب ھونے لگے اور جنک شروع ھو گئی ، ہر طرف بری خبریں جنکل کی آگ کی طرح پھیلنے لگیں۔ یار لوگوں کا پھر بھی اصرار تھا کھ یحیی خان مرد بجہ ہے، جنرل نیازی ٹائیگر ھے اور بی بی سی آکاش وانی کی بڑی بہن ھے۔ مزکورہ یار لوگوں کو اس بات کا یقین مصمم تھا کھ ھمارے شیر جوان جی ایچ کیو میں ضرور کوئی انوکھی کھچڑی پکا رھے ھیں۔ تمام بری خبریں دشمن کو دھوکا دینے کے لیے ھیں اور جلد ہی پاک فوخ ھندو کو وہ سبق سکھائے گی کھ وہ یاد رکھے گا۔۔۔۔۔راوی کے مطابق یار لوگ کلکتہ فتح ھونے کے خواب دیکھتے رہے اور ڈھاکہ ہاتھ سے نکل گیا۔

    What I mean to say is this: Those people who still cling to the rather hopeful notion that somehow all this is an elaborate ISI drama cooked up to hoodwink the Americans, are sorely, tragically and in the long run, fatally mistaken. The ISI may have started this drama but they are not calling the shots any more. There is no hidden agreement between the GHQ and the Taliban. Some in the lower level cadres of the security forces have been compromised by the Taliban and these are the elements helping them. Regardless, the Taliban come with extensive battle field experience from Afghanistan and don’t need any training from the ISI. To sum up, the Taliban revolution is here. Soon to be followed by the rise of indigenous Punjabi and Sindhi warlords/leaders.

    You guys are sick of listening to Mulla Sufi farting? Get ready to hear some other kan tutta molvi from Jhang barking orders on live TV as his bearded unwashed thugs take over post offices, thanas and government buildings. They will start from rural areas and small towns. Remember that always. They start small, fan out and capture the capital. Oh wait…haha….stupid of me…They have Islamabad right next door. Thank you Ayub Khan. May you rot in hell.

    Any day now, the cross-dressing Burqa Posh molvi of Laal Masjid-e-Zarrar will announce the Nifaz-e-Shariat in Islamabad as well as his illiterate thugs will start occupying government buildings. What you gonna do then? Besiege the mosque? Been there. Bomb the mosque? Done that. …haha….The revolution is here. Only a matter of time. Get out now when you can. Buy some beard trimmers in advance in case the local barber shop transforms into an

    عسلامق بق صٹور

    شاباش۔۔۔۔حلق سے نکالنے کی پریکٹس کرو

    Ah well…Sometimes I scare myself about my foretelling powers. I think I should start my own TV program, grow a beard and start telling fortunes. Perhaps I would beat the Istikhara molvis on QTV. And wouldn’t that be the greatest consolation?

  239. @Shah

    given the vaccum, as is evident from history, fringe forces with their extremist agendas become mainstream.

    Yes, it will be a revolution. Just not the French kind. But don’t hold your breath for Madame Defarge.

    We already have our Madame DeBurqa. Of the Laal Masjid fame. I wonder if she will put on her burqa again when it comes to walking on the Pul Sirat on his way to hell? Or will he unveil himself dramatically by the Hoze Kausar.

    Questions. Questions.

  240. At least you agreed that during Taliban opium cultivation went down. Good start.

    Whoever is doing wrong by killing innocent people, bombing schools and forcing women etc. are doing great sins and no sensible person can appreciate that kind of crazy things. Blaming anyone for anything is easy but to prove some one guilty is difficult.

    MY Question is who is really doing this:

    1. You think taliban or bunch of other people with CAN CUTTERS could bring twin towers down.
    2. Pak govt said that they have killed or captured so many Talibans or terrorists or foreigners or non state actors but none of them I mean not a single was showed on media. Their pictures, family relation, background, nationality etc. or independent investigation. Anyone they captured brought to trail in court. I WANT THE REAL KILLERS BROUGHT TO JUSTICE ANYONE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD . AND NOT JUST SOME PERSON WITH BEARD AND SHILWAR KAMIZ.

    3. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT PONCHO VILLA he was fighting with American army when they invaded Texas and other states of Mexico. For Mexicans he was a great revolutionary and bave freedom fighter but for the American Government HE WAS A TERRORIST.

    4. Before America took independence from Britain Thomas Jefferson was fighting with Brit army for independence. For Americans he was a great leader and later became the first president of USA but for BRITISH GOVERNMENT HE WAS TERRORIST.

    5. BULLET WAS NOT FIRED BUT ONLY 15000IBS OF DAISY CUTTER BOMBS WERE USED.

    6. WHO CAN JUSTIFY IRAQI AND AFGHANI WARS???? NO ONE WHO HAS LITTLE SENSE AND CARE FOR HUMAN LIFE.

  241. @mbokhari

    so bokhari sahab time is ripe for you to take out your AK47 and kick some ass! unless ofcourse you are sitting in some Dar-ul-harb place like Canada, USA or UK

  242. Taliban threaten Shangla lawyers
    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21681

    The fanatic beardo brigade is on the rampage.

    High court to have control over Qazis: NWFP AG
    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21659
    Who is he kidding?

    Nawaz voices concern over Swat deal
    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21661
    Oh really! how come it was pushed through the parliament in such a haste and without give it due deliberation?

    And here is the finale, ta daa!!!
    Swat Taliban to welcome Osama
    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21662

  243. @Babu from USA
    2. Pak govt said that they have killed or captured so many Talibans or terrorists or foreigners or non state actors but none of them I mean not a single was showed on media. Their pictures, family relation, background, nationality etc. or independent investigation. Anyone they captured brought to trail in court. I WANT THE REAL KILLERS BROUGHT TO JUSTICE ANYONE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD . AND NOT JUST SOME PERSON WITH BEARD AND SHILWAR KAMIZ.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_Binalshibh

    These are only 2 of hundreds arrested from Pakistan. This is an article from 2004 as to how the next wave of Alqaeda leaders is being created in Pakistan. Again, this is from 2004.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1005/p01s04-wosc.html

  244. @yusufkhan

    I think you did not read what I wrote.

    I don’t advocate anything. I am of the firm opinion that there is very little that can be done. Events will proceed with blinding speed. Yesterday it was Swat, today it was Buner. Who knows what tomorrow.

    دِل سے تیری نِگاہ جِگر تک اُتر گئ
    دونوں کو اک ادا میں رضامند کر گئی

  245. Casualties of the Iraq War
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    This article is about casualties for the war beginning in 2003. For other wars, see Iraq war (disambiguation).
    [show]v • d • eIraq War

    Invasion – Post-invasion (Insurgency – Civil war) – Battles and operations – Bombings and terrorist attacks

    White and red flags, representing Iraqi and American deaths, sit in the grass quad of The Valley Library on the Corvallis, Oregon campus of Oregon State University. As part of the traveling Iraq Body Count exhibit (not related to Iraq Body Count project) the flags aim to “raise awareness of the human cost of the Iraq War.”Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (beginning with the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and continuing with the ensuing occupation of Iraq coalition presence, as well as the activities of the various armed groups operating in the country) have come in many forms, and the accuracy of the information available on different types of Iraq War casualties varies greatly.

    The table below summarizes some of the Iraqi casualty figures.

    Source Iraqi deaths March 2003 to…
    Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths. June 2006
    Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths. June 2006
    Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of the conflict. August 2007
    Iraq Body Count 91,059 – 99,431 violent civilian deaths as a result of the conflict. February 2009

    HOW MANY HAVE KILLED BY SO CALLED TALIBAN. MORE THAN A MILLION???

  246. Sadam and his team was hanged coz they killed about 200 to 300 kurds with chemicals and few 100,s more here and there. WHAT ABOUT MR. BUSH AND HIS TEAM JUST KILLED OVER ONE MILLION CIVILIANS ONLY IN IRAQ.

  247. @mbo

    Glad you woke up to make the proclamation “Samad has written an excellent article”. Now we must ALL accept it as undeniable truth 😉

    “I am curious to know your take on the Taliban.”
    Geez. Stop being so lazy and read my previous posts, as @razakhan rightly suggested and you will find a “detailed and unequivocal answer.” Stop being like @GoTK

    Sorry for being brief but I have no time for some pansy whimpering “The end is nigh. I am resigned to a philosophical detachment” [Now that’s taking a stand] and those “nostalgic” for “old newspaper reports of effective Army action and brutality that actually succeeded in putting down revolts.” But let me throw you a morsel (or two): I support Nizam-e-Adl in Swat 100% and I love the BLA 😉

    @yusafkhan
    “so bokhari sahab time is ripe for you to take out your AK47 and kick some ass! unless ofcourse you are sitting in some Dar-ul-harb place like Canada, USA or UK”
    (I believe you are getting close when you say “or UK”) 😉

  248. @BABY FROM USA

    Dont be such a pappu. Who cares about Iraq? If you do, fly over there. They could kill all the Iraqis in the world and I won’t give a rat’s behind as long as nothing happens to my country. You seem to suffer from acute Ummanitis. It is deadlier than Meningitis. Get help. You don’t need to suffer in silence.

    Stick to Pakistan. The incredible shrinking Pakistan. Going. Going. GONE.

    Here today, gone tomorrow.

    Swat – SOLD. Buner – SOLD.

    Our prices are insane. Dhamaka(!) sale. Everything must go. We are closing shop.

    And, btw, stop using all CAPS, unless abbreviations. Stick to the topic of Samad Khurram’s article or STFU and GTFO 🙂

  249. @mbo
    “Who cares about Iraq? If you do, fly over there. They could kill all the Iraqis in the world and I won’t give a rat’s behind as long as nothing happens to my country.”
    Oh, so should we be expecting you here soon? 😉

    “Swat – SOLD. Buner – SOLD. ”
    Rest of Pakistan – SOLD

    But you have no problem with this, right?

  250. @NikhilP
    Mostly Saudi Arabia. This particular deal was made during the first trip to SA with the begger’s bowl holding Zardaro.

    But this is only part of it. The policy started in Mush’s time (under the guise of “corporate farming”) and I think I posted about it here some time back. I will look it up and post it again sometime today. You’d be amazed at guarantees offered these foreigners. Bet you if half of them were offered to the local farmers, we’d be not only self-sufficient in farm products but major exporters as well….

    BTW – did you notice this part:
    “It will also hire a new security force of 100,000 men to be split among the country’s provinces to help stabilise the investment environment, said Mr Khan.”

    Basically, these 100,000 armed goons will be hired to offer the foreigners protection once the locals realize they’ve been had and cry “Bloody murder!!”

  251. @nota

    I believe you goofed up you link comparing me to GoTK. I await your mad googling skills with baited breath 🙂

    A “detailed and unequivocal answer” means your intellectual reasoning for taking a stand. Not your version of “BLA is the chief commander of battle against the establishmen.” or “Mulla Sufi is the chief commander of battle against the establishment.” ….I hope to read an intellectual defense of the Taliban takeover of Swat and Buner from you vis-a-vis if it is a good thing, or the BEST thing ever and why, or do you think if it will be temporary etc.

    The news is so biased these days and I am curious of what these arguments could be. Do it when you get done posting news links about the financial crisis etc. Unless of course load shedding keeps interrupting you. Goddamned BLA must have blown another pylon 🙂

    I have an inkling though. I think your support for BLA and Mulla Sufi is ethnic and religious in which case you are not far apart from @Recyclist or @Peja or MQM supporters like Sameera Aziz.

    By the way, I noticed reading your comments that you have grown fond of and adopted the ‘baboo’ phraseology from @Traffic. Ah, another sad attempt at avoiding argument and labeling the poster ad hominem, ignoring his argument.

    I don’t find the term offensive. Only annoying and escapist. A knock off of the brand success of the ‘Mulla’ label.

  252. @nota

    Oh, so should we be expecting you here soon?
    Rest of Pakistan –
    SOLD

    But you have no problem with this, right?

    Your repeated references to my location remind me of another fine feathered friend of the rural kind. What has that got to do with anything? You are not trying to ‘expose’ me are you @nota?

  253. @mbokhari
    I can throw my comment on baby or babu but I will refrain myself to put myself at that level to attack you personally.

    There were some great thinkers when US came to Afghanistan and they said the same who cares its Afghanistan and we are fine here in Pakistan. then it was Iraq and the great thinkers said oh great even it is away from us. Then Drones came to FATA and the great thinkers said oh thats FATA Islamabad is far from FATA. just protest thats enough. then the great thinkers start thinking what if there are drone attacks in baluchistan. WILL THEY DO SOMETHING OR SAY THE SAME GREAT THING ISLAMABAD IS EVEN FARTHER FROM BALUCHISTAN. WHO CARES>>>WHO CARES>>>

    To be blind not necessary means loss of eyes …might some one has eyes but NO VISION. called blinditis… inflamation of the vision.

    Its easy to connect dotts only one has the WILL.

  254. @mbokhari

    my freind ur ranting like bill ‘O’reily. Calm down, I read all ur posts and am confused as hell what is that believe. How abt instead of jumping on everyone’s post u give us ur view on the situation and then ask whatever qts u wana ask. Cuz am confuse as hell on ur stand.

  255. @NikhilP
    Here is the story from the time when the “deal” was made. Notice it says “Saudi Arabia, now said to have abundant food supplies.”

    Now notice how it is spun in the latest story I linked above:

    “Pakistan is offering one million acres of farmland, protected by a special security force, for lease or sale to countries seeking to secure their food supplies

    (Sorry hadn’t noticed earlier but it DOES state those 100,000 goons WILL be for protection of this theft. So in effect it will be “Armed Robbery”)

    @mbo
    “adopted the ‘baboo’ phraseology from @Traffic”
    Maybe Traffic, maybe @Omar Khan. But it was intentional since you folks did not like that other term. But I stand gladly with them than your comrades, Padri-lover, @democrate, and their ilk 😉

    So you coming to Pakistan or not? So much for your concerns.

  256. Great going taliban when u have ur ass kicked by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan so u turn to kick someone else’s ass who ofcourse is not protected by the state.
    My humble opinion regarding the much touted 50,000 gathering is that would u dare not go and support them esp since u know they can get u while the state cant save u.
    All u discussing this tell me would u really want to be governed by them who miss the basic thing that ISLAM IS NOT BY FORCE ….HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE KILLED by the Muslim armies of the times that was close to that of our beloved prophet.
    I may not or in fact am not an Alim but I do believe that ISLAM has given a very special position to Women which doesnt involve keeping them illiterate and bound like an animal.
    SHAM ON YOU WHO SUPPORT THESE BARBARIC MORONS

  257. @mbo
    “Your repeated references to my location remind me of another fine feathered friend of the rural kind. What has that got to do with anything? You are not trying to ‘expose’ me are you @nota?”

    If I wanted to do that, I would have. No Sire, hardly. Repeated? No. Another misread. I only repeated the part “if we should expect you in Pakistan” because it is you who said if you cared about Iraq, you’d fly there. And you are suggesting you DO care about Pakistan (which will soon disappear) so I am suggesting then why not fly here to help the motherland?? (I believe it is common knowledge among old timers you are not around here)

    And don’t worry about that “fine feathered friend of the rural kind.” He is right here and standing shoulder to shoulder with you so you don’t have to worry about him. It it I who am still his target.

  258. @Nota
    “Here is the story from the time when the “deal” was made. Notice it says “Saudi Arabia, now said to have abundant food supplies.”

    Now notice how it is spun in the latest story I linked above:”

    Did you read the second para of the old story? I heard on BBC as well that the gulf countries are acquiring land in the african countries on lease to grow food.

  259. @nota, nota, nota

    What have they done to you my friend. Looks like you had some heated exchanges with PPP supporters while I was busy and absent from here. :)….You seem to confuse my opinions for that of GoTK. I have been gone long and only remember arguing with you, GoTK and Peja. Who is @democrate? Don’t want to look it up.

    Very briefly and curtly, I attempt to jog your memory:

    – I loathe Tahirul Padri just a little bit less I loathe the Taliban.
    – I kind of support PMLN and wrote a couple of articles here supporting the judiciary movement.
    – You and I had a run in with the lady from Saudi Gazette.

    But anyway,

    It is also telling how you brushed aside the “Rest of Pakistan – SOLD”

    Come on, get real. So, you think I ‘brushed’ it aside? What the F*** did your sentence mean anyway? Oh, oh, you mean that I ‘agree’ with the selling of Pakistan by the Taliban? It was a sarcastic comment and intended to protest the selling of Pakistan to the US and the Taliban by the Army.

    I am researching the Khmer Rouge and their Year Zero and the phenomenon of initial support from the Cambodian public. And how soon after the war, the wounds have healed and the new generation of Cambodians has very little interest in the memory. I am trying to find parallels of this in Afghanistan in the ’90s and Pakistan now.

    I dislike personal recriminations, accusations and discussing personalities. I am more interested in abstract ideas and the bigger pictures. I do this because I am curious and would like to educate myself about different arguments for or against a certain question. That is why I asked you that question because I remember being in agreement with you in the past quite frequently.

    You don’t need to weasel out of it. Just say you are busy, too many power outages etc..

    Don’t go Nazir Naji on me….haha… 😀

  260. @nota

    About your ‘concern’ joke, I admit you do have a hint of a whiff of an argument 🙂 But I have more of a connection to Pakistan than the other chap has to Iraq. For starters, my ancestors all the way to the beginning come from there and most of my family is still there. I am justified to be concerned about my country and anyone who mentions distant lands and their misfortunes to link our troubles with theirs is distracting from the issue at hand. It’s like blaming Neptune, the bringer of floods, and cursing him instead of swimming away, when you are neck deep in water in your living room and your only child has drowned already. Like I said, retarded.

    But what kind of point scoring was that though?

    He is right here and standing shoulder to shoulder with you so you don’t have to worry about him. It it I who am still his target.

    Well he is entitled to his opinion and who gives a F*** if he happens to be in agreement with me on this one and you against? Its not me against him, or me against you or you against the ‘baboos’….Nobody is keeping count of how many points you score. I am always more interested in ideas on a theoretical level and who formulates them for what reason.

    By the way, my ‘war’ with him started with me goading him about his support for the MQM and why he won’t answer his reasons for supporting it, apart from ethnicity, which is undebatable.

  261. congrats apes(taliban) have taken over boner and pak fauj(heejrha army) did not gave them any resistance.
    Pakistan spend more than 300billiob rupees on this heejhra army every year to protect and uphold the constitution an the pakistans borders from internal or exteranl threats/enemies.
    Our great heejrha force is busy in killing baluchis while apes take over pakistanis.

  262. sorry i meant
    . boneir instead of boner
    . did not give instead of did not gave
    2.billion instead of billiob
    3.pakistan instead of pakistanis

  263. @mbokhari

    well I read ur comments and sorrry may be im not educated enuff, but buddy u making no sense u hate everyone and u against everyone. In the end what it comes down to is ur just here to debate on point scoring no ideas. When u have a solution to the problem gimme a shout, till then carry on. all the best wishes.

  264. @justice,stop calling pak army hejra.u must be hejra.i bet it if free hand given to pak army they can wipe out all taliban with in one month.when all media is withtaliban,when half the polticans are with taliban how army can take strong action against taliban.first get united,pass resulution in asembly,declare all taliban traitor and kafir,and give free hand to army,when army take action,all tv praise pak force,broadcast national anhtem,when our army leave to crush taliban,people see ff them with flowers,thousands of voluntear to be ready to go with army to crush these bloody taliban,i bet it army will take less then one month to wipe them out.

  265. @razakhan

    i thought i was the only one who could not understand Mr. mbokhari.
    but we should encourage him to keep on writing and try to bring out his view or views or combination of views or mixture of views …anyway just stick to the view bro.

  266. solution is very easy and simple .government held round table conference.taliban should be declared kafir and traitor.army should be given free hand to crush taliban with in one month.all nation should back our brave army.thousands of voluntears should be ready to back army.media and civil society must back pak army fully.and our religous leaders be in fore front to declare taliban traitors and back army whole heartedly.

  267. @ justice

    Taliban looks like normal humans and not apes like you said.
    I think Pak army spends more than 300 B Rs / year.
    The last time I check Mush was the one who broke the constituition not once but twice.
    check the constituition about malakand division.

  268. I thought this I-don’t-know-sh!t-about-fata article by a mommy-daddy-kid would have been removed from the headline by now, but it seems as @dmin has joined the ranks of the BABOOS…. *sigh*

    @dmin no offence! 😉

  269. @justice,stop calling pak army hejra.i bet it if free hand given to army they can wipe out all taliban with in one month.when all the media,most of the politicians and big majority of ordinary people are supporting taliban how come pak army can take affective action against tlaiban.when ever pak army start to take action,whole media criticise army.dont put all blame to pak army.

  270. taliban are not big problem and they are never threat to pakistan.they can only fight in jungles,caves and moutains.solution is easy and simple.pak government call round table conference.taliban should be declared traitors and kafirs.army should be given free hand to wipe out these taliban with in one month.all parties inclding religous parties,media civil society back pak army.media should play national anthems and patriotic songs.thousands of voluntears should be ready to help pak army.before launching attack pak army should do parade in big cities and people should come out and shower pak army with flower petals.i bet it taliban will lay dwon arms with in few days.

  271. @democrate
    I can only call heejrha a heejhra i am sorry if it hurts your feelings

    BTW,this heejhra force had since 2004 that they have been defeated by apes.they have been defeated by sub human being category.
    If you remember more than 200 heejhra force members surrendered to apes in 2006/07 Do you think those heejras did so because of media

    Again the topic of discussion is not you or me but the heejhra force and apes

  272. @ babu
    when did you see taliban i have only seen the covered heads/faces and that is exactly why i call hem apes.
    If they were so righteous what are they afraid of?

    Musaraf also was the chief of the heejhra force/Napak army and after eating 300bln or more pakistani rupees to protect the constitution broke it twice
    His major at hat time surrendered to taliban malaysia.
    That is why they deserved to be called Heejhra force

  273. @ admin
    I have some suggestions for you

    I have seen many of us blaming zardari for the current situation in Baluchistan or fata/swat.

    Could you kindly conduct a poll for asking who is responsible army or ppp or pmlq as being mostly and then less responsible

    Also to ask how we can improve the situation in baluchistan by more army or provincial autonomy or status quo
    It will help us find out how many of us are really aware of the situation in these troubled aeas

  274. @democrazy

    “dont put all blame to pak army.”

    Why not? It was Moshe and his compatriots who initiated the the violent process against Pakistanis. Why did he not support the locals in eliminating the few Taliban?

    Far sighted Pakistanis could see that the few hundreds would turn out top be thousands if the pak army used violent methods. They not only used violent methods, but also allowed the enemies of Pakistan to flourish 🙁

    Maybe (only maybe) we can reverse the process by opting for a peaceful solution. Working for the Yankee/Hindu agenda WILL ONLY be even more disastrous!

  275. it is sickening that taliban are showing armed presence in Buanir and their spokeman is saying they are not their to do voilence. They are saying they re there for “Tableegh”…. and dawwa…. isnt this more sickening that people of bunair are already muslim and they are doing “Tableegh” there …. this is just BS… they are making people hostage there … they will start bloodshed there if people will resist against their presence. they will destroy schools and issue fatwa’s in the name of islam, and if you will abide they will say the are doing kuffar.

  276. I do not see any other solution other than backing off from any logestic support from amarikans in tribal areas and resisting the drones. On the other hand telling taliban’s that now there is no reason now to attack fellow muslim police and army. Telling them to lay down the weapons and let government take over the administration and law. If not there will no option other than eliminating these terrorists once for all.

  277. It clear when India’s new government has take Oath, they will prepare to receive large influx of Proud citizens of the Islamic Republic.

    There they would be able to live in peace, real democracy and an independent judiciary. And they will not fear of their basic human rights being stolen by a Military dictator. They would not need a long march as well.

    If they would like to have some fun, they would be easily provided by their new country men like that happened in Indian Gujrat.

    It would be really nice adventurism and we’ll be able to get rid of dictators and a barbaric army who sells out and kills his own people.

    I am looking forward to get an Indian Passport because I would no longer be perceived as ‘Pakistani Terrorist’ anywhere in world.

    Enjoy gentleman, our destination is within our eye sight view….. Democracy Zindabad, Justice and Independent Judiciary paidabad.

    b/w we can also take with us our Independent Judges to India as they will be happy to receive honest Judges… How happy we and they would be ….. 🙂

  278. @mbokhari

    Mr. B,

    As an early fan of your olympian wit and easy eloquence.. i don’t think you can afford to take the back seat view of a ‘detatched philosopher’ in our current predicament…

    this is it…. the final stand… our very own Thermopylae…..our chance to fight on our own beaches and landing grounds….

    so i’m afraid there is no time to stand about feigning scholarly despair … that to in the face of a few inbred yahoos with guns and beards..

  279. Imran looks nice in cricket stands. Thats where he should be . Thats his only expertise. I love him when he is there as an expert and hate him to death when he opens his mouth on political affairs.

  280. @gv

    Gracious of you to compare Pakistanis to the Lacedaemonians but you forget something. They had one Ephialtes. We have millions. Some of them are here on this forum too. Eager, exultant and self-congratulatory whenever some more throats are slit in FATA.

    We have no Leonidas, the lion king. The closest thing available is Mian Saheb, saada sher, but his party too hasn’t responded vociferously to the depredations in Buner, apart from a mealy-mouthed ‘concern’ to the USA Today.

    You call this madness. Madness? Madness?

    THIS. . . IS. . . FATAAAAA (link)

    Nothing is impossible in this world. But my despair is rooted more in my acceptance of the reality that the steps needed to be taken cannot be taken by the captains of our national ship at the moment.

    A few observations:

    • Everything that breaks down reinforces the simplistic appeal of the Taliban.
    • It’s a quagmire and we will sink ever downward.
    • Attacks on Sri Lankan team, throat slitting of soldiers, attacks on polio eradication teams, women health workers, NGOs mean total sapping of national morale.
    • Artists, poets, journalists will be the first victims (remember the guy killed in swat right after peace treaty, and many other FATA journalists)
    • As the dystopia of our lives becomes more pronounced, the Taliban utopia will become more attractive. Until we can dream no more, but then again, there are no questions allowed in the world of Taliban.

  281. @Supercreature

    It could be a good development if the government followed your suggestions, but tell me honestly would you BELIEVE the Pak army or the government to honor the agreement?
    They both have a VERY BAD track record 🙁

  282. = T H E F U T U R E =

    The first shots across the bow. The coming storm. This is how it will all end. I hope and pray that it won’t but I am mighty afeared that it would. A look in mbokhari’s crystal globe, 3-5 years down the foggy pathways of tomorrow:

    • Assassination of prominent Mullahs of JI and JUIF. The logic of complete chaos.

    • Shia Sunni wars in every town and tehsil, Barelvi extermination. Iranian and Saudi funding fans the flames.

    • Attacks on Police targets. Large scale desertions. Infiltration of thanas by Taliban gangsters.

    • Publishing of hit lists of political, industrial and intelligentsia bigwigs in all major cities to come before the Taliban ‘courts’

    • Initiation of a class war, decapitating local political leadership of every hue and flavor. Classic intimidation starting from rural areas of South Punjab and Sindh.

    • Attacks on dams, power pylons, WAPDA, power plants to destroy the economy, capital flight, large scale emigration of talent. Turning the lights out will mean something literal this time.

    • Complete social polarization and lack of national unity.

    • The media will become ever more willing participants, fellow travelers, useful idiots. All in the hope of “Dialogue” with those who believe only in the gun.
    ہم جو تاریک راہوں میں مارے گئے

    • Ameican moles in the officer corps. Remember, General Alvi killed by ISI after leaks.

    • Zia’s crop of Generals reach the top echelon. Kiyani has retired but the federal government chooses a Paltoo kutta of America as the next General. Ahmad Shuja Pasha, perhaps?

    • Overt loyalty to US by the leading general leads some General to rebel resulting in the fragmentation of the army. Army is led by a shifting alliance of rival corps commanders in an uneasy cold war. Perhaps overt rebellion in Pukhtunkhwa and a civil war led by Army factions a la Afghanistan pre-79.

    • Every local corps commander establishes links with the local centers of powers: Nazim level politicians and tehsil Taliban chiefs.

    • Establishment’s and elite prostration before the West. Gucci liberals and Prada baboos worship MTV, Cosmo, Starbucks etc. Extreme corruption and Swiss bank accounts mean the Establishment’s loyalties are not with Pakistan. They refuse to ever resist the US.

    • After army is decimated in civil wars, “Coalition Forces”, including India, would have already destroyed all the Nuclear weapons, the civilian infrastructure and the defense establishment.

    • Once nukes are gone, there won’t be much difference between us and Somalia.

    • Tribals will try to invade Indian Kashmir, like Chechens invading Daghestan in 1999, leading to Indian invasion of Azad Kashmir and occupation of Islamabad. Bereft of nukes and fuel, Pak army will not be able to fight back. PAF would have already been destroyed before. A total walk over.

    • Roads, bridges, ports, industry an universities will become distant memories. Piles of rubble in major urban centers. Flight to the country side. Deprivation and wide spread social upheaval.

    • We will lament the days when we had PIA, railways, power plants etc

    • Warlords take over urban centers like in the Lyari gang war. Most of the politicians have left or have been assassinated by now. No one to provide leadership.

    • As economy destructs, Zimbabwean levels of inflation. Ruppee is worthless. Dollars and euros are smuggled abroad.

    • Due to anarchy and chaos in rural Pakistan, agriculture sector collapses. Food shortages, drought, starvation and mass suffering. TV appeals, concerts for Pakistan’s benefit all around the world. SHAME and national humiliation.

    • As social order breaks down, Taliban appeal becomes seductive. In fact that is exactly what the Taliban are planning

    • Feudal order of Punjab and Sindh is broken. Haris and Mazaras join the Taliban rank and file. LJ, SSP types fuel sectarian attacks and give hope of a better future under Taliban. Waderas are coopted or assassinated. Perennial Punjabi lotas switch sides but will eventually be toppled. Radical land redistribution in the favor of local Punjabi Taliban warlords.

    • Taliban warlords take over from waderas with their own Mazara armies. Echoes of Maoist rebellion, Naxalite war.

    • Karachi declares independence along with Sindh, Balochistan and Pukhtunkhwa. Echoes of the Somali civil war, the Khmer rouge.

    • After losing Karachi and Sindh and Pukhtunkhwa, Punjabis from the urban and industrial belt will have nowhere to go. Those who can afford, will emigrate to the west. Others will bow down before local Taliban.

    In the words of T.S. Eliot:

    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    Not with a bang but a whimper

    Maybe the Taliban won’t do all these things. But their actions so far provide convincing proof of what they want. They have already done it in Afghanistan. Now they have done it in Swat. Now they are on to Buner, Mianwali, Hazarajat and DI Khan. Next: South Punjab and Sindh.

    • Taliban will not succeed in taking over. They will only succeed in breaking down the current order which will be followed by total anarchy, lawlessness and destruction.

    • Taliban will become corrupt too and will try to be part of the local power structure. Land cruisers, personal armies, Rashid Dostum. Narcotics and weapons. Rapes and pillage.

    • Our lip service to Islam prevents us from speaking up. We are willing to condone ANYTHING as long as it is done in the name of Islam (just imagine range of Mullah opinion from Taliban to Tahirul Padri)

    گاڑی رکھ
    ڈاڑھی رکھ
    تےپھاڑی رکھ

  283. = S O L U T I O N =

    The only things that can save us now:

    • Stop drone attacks, halt NATO traffic, distancing with the US war.
    • Strengthen state, ensure justice
    • Devolve power to local authorities, maliks, provinces
    • Abolish DHAs, army hegemony of economy.
    • Allow provincial, district law making a la America
    • Reorganize provinces along ethnic lines. Break Punjab into smaller provinces.
    • Strengthen central bureaucracy, ensure impartiality, overhaul CSP structure
    • Reorganize PATA, FATA, NA into a separate Pashtun province with local lawmaking authority. Political integration. NAR is not a bette-noir. Tribals need to be given complete vote power. Political integration with the rest of the country. Encourage all political parties to operate in these areas.

    ——

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    — William Butler Yeats

  284. @Mbokhari,
    I agree that these beardo Talibans are like the locust that is out there to destroy anything that will come to their path. The question is that will the other players in the region, especially those bordering Pakistan (India and China) can afford to see Pakistan fall into the hands of these hardcore fighters? Because make no mistake, after conquering Pakistan, they will find an excuse to go after not only India but also those provinces in China that have Muslim majority to liberate them from the infidels. Thoughts….

  285. @mbokhari

    Solutions are called solutions because they are solvable
    Your solutions are more of a headche than solution.

    I think only solution is Martial Law
    We have to take our chances
    Probably 5th time we may get a wise King this time

    You are talking of divergance of power in a deep rooted corrupt society

    I wish Mian were our Man but he is not.

  286. LAST!!!

    Also,
    This is more like Silence of the “confused” lambs. And they are being confused by the likes of JI, JUI and PTI (I don’t know why PTI but that’s another, sad, discussion) who think they can come to Islamabad’s corridors of power gliding on the wings of the talib vultures. They however, are wrong.

    The current Talibs are being used by the foreigner in a repeat of their previous successful campaigns over the last couple hundred years.

    Remember the “mujahideen” who the brits infiltrated into this very same area around the early 1800’s ? the Emirate in Peshawar ? the “JIHADs” against the sikhs that were waged by these UP deobandi (Talibs are also deobandi — by a freak coincidence I’m sure) talibs of the day and which served nothing but the british. The result was a sounding defeat for the last remaining power in India (the sikhs), the take over of Afghanistan, Kashmir, and the destruction of the Mughal empire.

    And what happend afterwards? Well, if you look at page 37 of Mutala Pakistan, it will tell you that Sayyad Ahmed Shahid died fighting bravely fighting against the british. Who proceeded to eliminate the sh*t out of all the panzy ass “emirates” these people were allowed to maintain until the Sikh’s kicked the bucket. After that, it was “elimination time”.

    The brits (and now the Amercians and possibly Indians) have learned a very valuable lesson about the mindless zombies who respond to certain “Islamic” stimuli in a very pavlovian manner. And that is that by using a language of “Jihad”, “Sharia”, “Khilafa” they can get these groups to do their bidding.

    The lesson is straight forward:

    You use them to eliminate your enemies.
    then you destroy them.
    You and your generations reap the rewards for the next 100 years.

    repeat as necessary.

    So, there won’t be any “spillage”… there will just be elimination of Pakistan as a state, and all the useful idiots (like Munawar Hasan, Sirajul Haq and Mullah Diesel) who claim they’re helping bring about “Islamic Revolution” (but who in reality are making a craven and cynical grab for political power) will be left holding the bag, and their ‘heroes’ will be eliminated with extreme prejudice once Paksitan is defanged and dis-membered.

    So, support Taliban if you like, but know this. You are supporting the dismemberment of Pakistan and dissolution of any future for the people in this area that may be linked to a federation in this area.

    Being an anarchist, and knowing the current system of injustice being inflicted upon the people, my gut instinct is to say: “Let the M** F**Ker burn” …

    Maybe some new order will emerge out of this chaos, an order beneficial to the people, majority of whom live here like animals having no say in their lives, but the possibility remains that Pakitsan will turn into a lawless land ruled by talibs, talib lites, “students”, “barelvi talibs”, “shia talibs”, “Naxal Baris of the pakistani kind” etc etc.

    We’re heading towards Mogadishu, Via Baghdad, no stopping in Tehran…!

  287. Those who support Taliban have a psychological mindset developed very carefully by the

    mentors of Taliban. Of course it is the part of a big picture. To get credential and sympathies

    for Taliban many Ahadith have been created including the ones mentioning Mehdi and

    the ”Black Flags from Khurasaan”.

    Many people in Sarhad particularly and in Pakistan in general this hadith is authentic and

    they relate Taliban to those ‘Black flag bearers’

  288. Sarmad Khuram

    You are moron and have pea size brain.You can only see Taliban but you cant see that fire which is about to burn pakistan ..yOU cant see with your blind eyes BLA and your can’t death to pakistan slogan with your deaf ears…

  289. @TK
    —–
    … And they are being confused by the likes of JI, JUI and PTI (I don’t know why PTI but that’s another, sad, discussion) ….
    —–

    Being an ardent fan of IK, I must say that IK as a politician has disappointed me. I have not seen any statement from IK condemning the barbaric acts of these Talitubbies; the burning of schools, the digging up of the graves and all those atrocities that these beardos have committed in the name of Shriah, Jihad, Islam, etc. I mean if these people talk about justice then how about starting it from their own house first and punishing all those MoF*kers who have committed crimes but No wait, according to Mr. Sufi, this is thing of the past and that we should look forward. The funny thing is that all those on this forum who were condemning Obama for not going after those CIA operatives who had conducted tortures are mum on this. What kind of f*k*ing hypocricy is this?

  290. @Amir Hameed

    I don’t he has glorified them either. In fact he terms the hardcore elements as extremist and even worse as terrorists.

  291. @mbokhari

    bravo!!! thank you for the ‘laconic’ solutions!!!!!!!!!

    how about we talk about using this or another platform to lobby the government and/or political parties with these solutions as a start.. ala north american pressure group….

    i ‘m dead serious bye the bye… we’ve got some pretty decent talent here in nota, tk and yourself to begin with…

    @TK

    good to see you here again… for chrissake please don’t go off on your nihilistic maoism tangent…

    we don’t need a bloody revolution… we just need to pull our s*** together and collaborate…

  292. @gv

    “how about we talk about using this or another platform to lobby the government and/or political parties with these solutions as a start.. ala north american pressure group….”

    I would love to second, let us know if we can help ………

  293. @mb

    don’t be silly it will obviously be led by a panel, driven by consensus.. and opposing opinions..can be a good thing… look at hamilton and madison for one…

    come on dude don’t chicken out on this.. lets put your talent to some real use… that goes for TK and nota as well..

  294. @dildar

    thanks for the support.. lets begin by using pkpolitics to rouse up some support than we can talk logistics later

  295. @gv

    I am touched but I can’t help it. I despise fellatio artists of all types. I have a question, what is the difference between the following pole-smoking attitudes:

    – “lurve” for Tafoo Mirasi when he says “Graytussttt Blunderrr…bigggust mustaake, We apologize to India, we hold our hands together, forgive us for making Pakistan”

    – “lurve” for the BLA’s Qaid Azam, Najaiz Tukham, Baniye ka Khusam: Brahmin ka Dagh Bugti, when he stutters, “We ask help from India…..en, em, er, en… Your Pakistan has taken all the Gas and given us the Sui..en, em, er, en…Ooi, Ooi, haye me mar Gayi…..India!!!! ” 😀

  296. well that’s the real problem isn’t it???? not the pakistani ‘ephialti’.. its chaps like you lot who are content to wring your hands and eloquently prognosticate our impending doom…

    you guys are obviously well read and articulate and have even identified the problems and the solutions to precision… but what’s the point of all your education and your eloquence if all its good for is high brow contempt and constant criticism….

  297. we need people like you to do something not sit about on internet blogs …

    what about burke and paine ? they used their intellect for the greater good ………. you guys can probably all write better and more accurately about the prevailing situation than twits like ahmed qureshi… yet its mediocrity like his that continues to float turd like to the top…………

  298. @gv

    I hear ya bro…My feelings:

    Well I don’t know why I came here tonight,
    I got the feeling that something ain’t right,
    I’m so scared in case I fall off my chair,
    And I’m wondering how I’ll get down the stairs,
    Clowns to the left of me,
    Jokers to the right, here I am,
    Stuck in the middle with you.

    Yes I’m stuck in the middle with you,
    And I’m wondering what it is I should do,
    It’s so hard to keep this smile from my face,
    Losing control, yeah, I’m all over the place,
    Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right,
    Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

  299. @gv, @mb : I like gv’s idea. I can fire up a password protected wiki page if anyone’s up for regular interaction. I do gravitate towards @mbokari’s pessimisstic reading of the situation based on the certain, hard to lose, destructive patterns which our country (nation?) and state seems to have cornered itself in.

    A part of me is happy that this god-forsaken order is being torn down. We are already in the throes of revolution. We may not like this. But this is the way it is right now.

    Can it be staved off?
    SHOULD it be staved off?
    HOW can it be staved off?

    Or “Managed”… Or “Co-Opted”

    I know the “constitution wiki” project didn’t go anywhere, but we might have better luck with this whole “open source think tank” thing?? It might help to have a moderated forum to hash ideas out.

    For shits and giggles. Or for “Queen and Country” (or equivalent thereof) ?? It might not be a bad thing. I do agree that “Action” is needed. Action of some sort.

    We could always pick up arms. I mean, Fidel Castro started with 3 other guys… The land is ripe for revoultion. We can’t blame the talibs if they’re the ONLY game in town… can we? 😉

  300. @mbokhari

    “Could you be so good as to post a link or something? ”

    Actually I also tried to get it. There is some stuff on kitabghar.com but not this particular short story.

  301. @gv: thank you sire. etc.

    @mb: Don’t back out now my brother in Islam. Let us start this Jihad against this fitnah in earnest. Time is of the essence!

    To not take ourselves too seriously and to keep in mind the desperate situation we are trying to avert, I wanted to call it:

    HalfAssedLastDitch.Wiki???.Com

    But HALD.blahblah.com would do too … sounds like “halt!”…. get it? (or we could give it a pompous name after a Muslim General… Al-Khalid is taken, so is Saladdin… hmm… any other great generals’ names not used as yet? ;-p … all depends how pretentious we wanna get.)

    Either that or @mb or @gv should shujjesht a better name. All 300 of my neurons are all tapped out at this point. From what I hear we get “community” features like a forum etc.

    Anyone else up for the ride? Hit me up on my bilog.

  302. @nota…

    the thing is that i don’t have the language or analytical skills that you three have… this would be better served if the three of you put aside your ‘political’ differences and worked on hashing out a cohesive strategy which we can all try to propagate/proliferate by using personal contacts within the govt and different political parties..

    i’m not talking about some ‘discussion board’ here.. i mean a serious effort at building up awareness where it counts..

    eventually we could try and raise finances for a polling agency ala Gallup to prove public approval/disapproval of the proposed solutions….

  303. @gv: I don’t think @nota is interested in “hashing out a cohesive strategy”… better leave him alone with the wet dreams of “One Khilafah to Rule them All” regardless of what butchery and murderous mayhem my be needed … the end justifies a few thousand Pakistani’s murdered on the streets of Pakistan, because, you know, the Americans did it in Iraq, so its all fair game in Liberty.

    @nota: the good thing about your “predictions” is that they are either cut-n-pastes from other sites to suit your personal tiff of the moment or they are vaguer than Qazi Hussain Ahmed’s “condemnation” of any beardo act as long as it is in the name of “Islam” and it can be used for cynical political mileage. Let’s just say they’re about as ‘clear cut’ as @peja’s predictions.

    But this was one of the very few times when you actually took a stand and made a statement of your own instead of posting results from google searches. And it turned out right!

    Congratulations!

    Now, I believe you have some cutting and pasting to do. Try making some arguments of your own. Like present a thesis, then put forward arguments to support what it is that you yourself believe. And misdirection doesn’t really count as an argument per se.

    For example, when someone tries to point out the taliban problem, posting pictures of some other people meeting reagan doesn’t really count as “rebuttal”.

    maybe it does for some aging and desperate sorry-ass “baboo” (by your generalization standards — which do not apply in this case of course) housewife who can’t make it on her own in her own party, so has to ingratiate herself to those she claims to have “fought against” all her life.

    But thats about it.

  304. @TK, gv

    Agreed and agreed.

    Also, you think we are some unique geniuses with some exceptional qualities not present elsewhere? As flattering as that may sound :), not true. There are remarkably bright people in Pakistani civil services, journalism and academia. The ‘missing’ part comes at the top, or at the political level: The president, the PPP, PMLN and others like it.

    I think PMLN is going to come forward and is able to provide leadership in a coherent manner. PPP is adrift. Forget about JI, PTI and Jhoora Nai.

    TK and me and perhaps others are fit for pointless forum discussions and bashing each other :-/…..What @Gul said on the other thread is increasingly true. No more stimulating conversations to be had here. No more arguments vs arguments. Matric fail losers have run amok with substandard reasoning and dangerously low-IQ.

    One guy I especially miss is Mansoori. I assure you, my eyes have misted slightly….Ah…I just got something in my eye…uhm, ahem… Check this here:

    http://pkpolitics.com/2008/09/08/memri-and-israel%e2%80%99s-war-on-pakistan/#comment-113201

    The Teddyban are here…. Today’s the day they have their picnic.

    If you go out in the woods today
    You’re sure of a big surprise.
    If you go out in the woods today
    You’d better go in disguise.

    For every bear that ever there was
    Will gather there for certain, because
    Today’s the day the teddy bears have their picnic.

    If you go out in the woods today,
    You’d better not go alone.
    It’s lovely out in the woods today,
    But safer to stay at home.

    For every bear that ever there was
    Will gather there for certain, because
    Today’s the day the teddy bears have their picnic

  305. @mbokhari

    “One guy I especially miss is Mansoori. I assure you, my eyes have misted slightly….Ah…I just got something in my eye…uhm, ahem… ”

    I am not sure but this Dua go telletubby a.k.a Haris khan sounds like him …..

  306. @mb

    while i may come across assome wide eyed neophyte completely besotted with your blinding genius– i’m afraid the only reason i’m appealing to you is because

    a) i don’t really know the chaps sitting in the middle tiers of power…
    b) most of the ones i do know are completely jaded and cynical and don’t believe in change
    c) you guys are obviously concerned and i agree with your proposed solutions…

    i also think that the ‘smart’ people on the ground actually involved in government/politics tend to lose sight of the big picture and get lost in the detail…

    @tk
    i think you’re being too harsh on nota.. he just believes in carefully weighing the merits/demerits of both sides of an argument.. as opposed to taking a blinkered one way view of things.. which is great unless you let it hamper your direction..

  307. @TK & @mbokhari,
    No one denies that:
    – Drone attacks should be stopped immediately as they are only aggravating the situation and killing innocent people.
    – Moshe’s operation in the Lal Mosque was not justified by any definition.
    – In Moshe’s tenure, army should not have been sent to the tribal areas and a political solution should have been pursued.

    We already know that and agree with it (at least the majority), so I am not sure what these pro Talitubbies are going with the arguments like:
    – Comparing knives with missiles.
    – Posting pictures of prisnors from Gitmo, etc., etc.

    What they (pro Talitubbies) are not willing to admit is that and like @Aneeza has put it in her post that, how do you justify:
    – Talibans slitting throats in the name of Islam.
    – Talibans bombing the funerals, girl schools, Imam Bargahs, and what not
    – Talibans looting items from hospitals, schools, etc.
    – and the list goes on and on.

    I have not yet seen any Taliban sympathizer actually presenting arguments related to the above points.

  308. @Kashif

    I just read your posts (21 April @8.50 and @9.12) and hold exactly the same view! You’re absolutely right.

  309. @gv: I thought so too… but recent history contradicts that observation of yours and that is really messed up because the guy is too sophisticated to fall into this sh*t ‘by mistake’. “Balance of opinion” seems to have very little to do with the stances taken by our esteemed friend lately. And so be it. All I’m saying is, come out, and take a stand, it is A-OK.

    @mb: dude that AAM post is classic! I totally LOL’ed.

    @gv, @mb, @gul, @mutazalzaluzaman tarar, @Marcvs_Tacitvs_Cicero, @AmirHameed, @kashif, @peja (come on don’t be a sourpuss), @AclarionCall, @nota, @rasheed, and all others interested! ::

    Okay folks, I’m going to try to create a wiki site (with some kind of forum thingy but don’t count on it yet). I’m going with “HALD” for now. We can change it to something profound and meaningful later on. I shall report my progress on my blog (and here). The logins will have to be signed up for at wikidot.com and then you can put a request in to become a member. email me at address below if there are any confusions. Keeping the PKP id’s will make things simpler but nothing that a round of ‘introductions’ can’t fix.

    email me at taban.khamosh [AT] gmail dot com

    I don’t expect there to be more than a few users (less than 20 I think). We need to invite all who are interested in “discourse” rather than polemics that we engage in here at PKP and which have overwhelmed the admains and the members over here.

    The idea is to engage in explorative discussion regarding Pakistan and the challenges facing our beloved and tortured motherland.

    Here goes nothing…

  310. @gv: chk ur email

    @mzzt, @aneeza , @Amir Hameed email me at address above if you want to help out with the bootstrapping process in setting up the discussion/lobbying space. I’ll send you the invites slash secret phrase thingamajiggy.

  311. Oligarchy, not democracy. We also have theocracy. We, for all reasons, also have marshal law since Liaqat Ali Khan’s death. These three will also turn out to be puppets, if anything. They may be worth much in public, but in reality, what is a prime minister worth? Get a few permits, oblige a few relatives by appointing them into federal departments, provide gas to their constituency along with electricity. But is that all? Is that all that we look to them for? What about vision? These three, without any bias for or against any one of them, are bound to idealize their fathers. And what is the role of their fathers in the grand scheme of things? Do they have a vision for Pakistan on which they can afford to act?

    ISI pushes Nawaz Shareef to come out in the open against Zardari. He does. His tone changes over night. Previously, it was “mufahmat”, in a few hours, Nawaz found himself discussing Swiss Bank accounts, not of his, but of Zardari’s. Fazal-ur -Rehman, the Munafiq-e-Azam of Pakistan, and Asfandyar Wali go to Nawaz Shareef to ask him to soften his stance. But since Nawaz Shareef has been fingered by ISI, he will not budge. He will ride out. In the meantime, Shahbaz Shareef proclaims, “before we reach Gujranwala, the judges will be restored”. How does he know this? Did God come down from the heavens and tell him that? He knows this because he and his dear brother have been apprised by ISI that they will push the prime minister to convince the President to bow down to the public pressure. Nawaz Shareef arrives in Gujranwala, General Kiani makes a phone call to Aitzaz Ahsan, the next morning the judges are restored, Nawaz returns home triumphant and my fellow friends and bloggers on Pkpolitics hail it as a victory for the rule of law and democracy.

    Unfortunately, it was not a victory for any one of the two.

    ISI wanted to weaken the President. It was a game they played. I always thought Nawaz had learnt his lessons, and had decided never to dance to the tunes of people like the ISI. But I guess I can be wrong.

    ISI is another story. Most Punjabis do not even realize what is going on in the FATA. Does anyone have any idea? Today I want to shake up your conscience.
    It is our ISI which is so big that it has self sustaining power. When Z.A.Bhutto created it, he failed to realize that some institutions develop a form of inertia in themselves. They simply cannot be curtailed.

    It was our ISI involved in Mumbai. Forgive me for admitting this. But my or your patriotism is not going to change a thing. A serving Lt. Gen. was in charge of the operation. A few days after Mumbai when there were bomb blasts in cinemas close to the Mall road, ISI people surveyed the area as usual. But in doing this, one of them uttered something to me saying, “Hinduan no maza chakha ditta he, bus vichara Ajmal Khan zakhmi bohat ho gaya si, warna sada koi bunda huth nahin si aa sakda, fool proof planning si…”. It was our ISI owning up to it.

    Friends at Pkpolitics, I am not an enemy of our ISI. I am as proud of it as probably anyone else is for their being at par with RAW and Mossad. But when it creates badmash people like Bait-ul-Lah Mehsud, Maulana Fazal-ul-lah, Hafiz Saeed, and so many others, I feel that more than our politicians are guilty, it is the ISI which should be punished. Does anyone know what their people (these Maulanas) are doing in FATA, and some parts of NWFP? The Pathans never butchered people like these so-called Shariat loving Islamists. The cutting of throats was and is an Arab norm, not Pathan or Pakhtoon tradition. ISI is giving areas to these people so create a distraction for everyone. So the questions would arise, a distraction from what, right? What if I tell you that it was the ISI that took Uzbeks, Chechans and Arab fighters through Waziristan to settled areas of Pakistan like Quetta and Karachi? To protect those investments, ISI is creating a mess in FATA thinking Americans will not notice. But when Gen. Kiani visited U.S., I am told that Americans were really prepared. They had audio tapes of our army officials giving instructions to the Mumbai squad. In fact, the Americans kept the audio recordings of many individuals who were corroborating the murder of Benazir Bhutto, some of those voices were ISI men.

    Someone should tell our most learned Matric pass army and ISI: If they are thinking that upon their instructions, the so-called taliban will stay on the other side of Attock bridge, they are living in a fools world. Please tell them that. These people will come to Pindi, and to lahore and to Faisalabad. To illustrate the destruction they have created, just consider this: these badmash maulanas have killed every educated moderate voice in FATA & Swat. They deliberately targetted tribal elders and one by one killed them. This ISI wanted because it does not want to face resistance from the local inhabitants. And this Sufi Muhamad and Fazlullah are all puppets and so called assets of our beloved blood sucking army.

    How many wars have they won?
    Are they, in any way, capable of fighting a modern war?
    Are they a professional fighting force?

    OR

    always conniving with or against the Americans, the elected government, the judges, and the people of Pakistan.

    My friends, here is the bitterest reality: the local inhabitants of FATA now want that the Talibanization should spread to Lahore and Faisalabad and to other settled areas. This they wish and hope just as Palestinians wished and hoped for death to arrive at the American shores for the American support of Isreal. Similarly, these formerly Pakistan loving people, who went to fight our war before our army into Azad Kashmir, are now hoping and praying for the Taliban to reach Lahore so people in Lahore can finally see what a great agony it is to live under these fanatics, who kill, butcher and maim.

    Unfortunately, the traditional villain is playing a good role. Americans want to curtain the ISI. I too want it to be curtailed, but not by Americans, but internally. But it seems, there will never come a time when the locals (people and politicians) will be as strong as to check ISI’s powers and operations.

    One of the Pashtuns told me, “I support American drone attacks”. And I was as shocked as anyone else. I ask him “why” and he goes, “listen, our people [ISI] is keeping the foreign fighters and American want to kill them, so at one time, Americans shared intelligence with ISI and gave them the whereabouts, but the Americans noticed that ISI was facilitating the escape of the foreign fighters right before the strike. So, now the Americans do not tell our army anything…thank God, Finally there is someone to check our badmaashes”.

    We in the settled areas of Pakistan have made it an issue of sovereignty. I agree Americans should respect out writ within our country. But if we are keeping those very people they blame for 9/11, and our intelligence agency is instrumental in spreading the Taliban in Pakistan, and killing our own people, why should we cry? It is our job to set our house in order. If we do not, then someone else will. This time around, it is the Americans. But even if we consider that americans are doing us some good by black listing ISI, remember, Americans have a very selfish definition of “national interest”. Once they do away with ISI, the next thing they are coming after is something else. But the onus to understand this fall on our ISI. They should hand over the badmaash foreigners and stop funding the Taliban insurgency.

    I urge everyone to understand that every man killed in FATA and SWAT, as long as they have CNIC and Pakistani Passport, is a Pakistani. Please consider them as such and write to every anchor, human rights activist, political leader to ask them to do something about our own mess creator, the ISI. It should have been the front line defense of our country, but considering Taliban to be an asset is not a responsible mindset.

    Do you know why Anfandyar Wali was attacked? Because he dared to say openly that ISI should stop this. Many people died in that bomb blast. Who is responsible for those Pakistani deaths? Could it be the work of a responsible national agency? Please think with an open mind. If you think with Dr. Munawar Hasan’s mind, then you will have a Taliban like answer for everything.

    On a different note, Professor Munawar Hasan of the Jamat-e-Islami said:

    Translation: We have the nukes, we can stand up to America and tell them.
    Iftikhar of Jawab Deyh: But how will our nukes reach America?
    Munawar Hasan: The Americans are here.

    I could not believe my ears when I heard this. Does Dr. Munawar Hasan plan to explode a nuclear bomb in Afghanistan, killing half of Pakistan alongside the Americans? What kind of a leadership do we have? An educated jaahil Maulvi heading the largest most organized religious / political party of Pakistan… Words cannot express the state of affairs. But first thing first, please protect each and every Pakistani life by telling all you know to do something to curtain the expansiveness of the ISI.

    ISI and army are after “blood money” – money that Pakistan receives from the Americans after convincing them that there is a Taliban problem in Pakistan, which can defeat NATO forces in Afghanistan, and which maybe able to take over Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, and to fight this menace, Americans are told over and over again, “we need more support”. But we have never heard that this money has made its way to an ordinary policeman or Hawaldar who has actually fought the Taliban in the streets of Pakistan. Some of this money disappears, just as the beneficiary of most of the drug money from Afghanistan is unnamed.

    Do Nawaz Sharif, PPPP, PTI, and others even understand what the true problem is? The Taliban are surely coming, but they seem somnolent to this. I find it amusing to be saying Altaf Hussain is right, because we all know what MQM stands for. But in this case, Altaf does seem to be correct.

    The last time there was a change in Jamat-e-Islami leadership was during Afghan jihad days when all was holy. Fighting the Soviets and embracing death was the chief shahadat. ISI, through Jamat-e-Islami’s shura, elected a man for the sole purpose of speaking to the Pakhtoons. This man was Qazi Hussain Ahmed, who was himself a Pathan. And we heard it many times over, “Zalimo Qazi Aa raha he”. When his utility was over, he duly left. Now, when ISI desperately wants the Taliban to take over Karachi, they have installed a “Muhajir” – Dr. Munawar Hasan as the head of Jamat-e-Islami. Surely, this must be in the “national Interest”.

    Which journalist has the courage to speak against ISI or has spoken against the ISI after Musharraf left (Not even Ansar Abbasi)? None. It seems that for the journalists, getting Musharraf out was the higher goal. Now, they sleep lik all else in Punjab and the rest of the country.

    The ISI – the so-called first line of defense of Pakistan, is so corrupt, both financially and intellectually that it does not know any better other than their own survival. For that, they send regular envelopes filled with money to journalists. Journalists like Nazir Naji, Abdul Qadir Hasan, Irshad Haqqani, Hamid Mir, Ansar Abbasi, Kashif Abbasi and others are bought easily. Everyone has their price. Some by means of plot allotment, others with that infamous grey envelope filled with some cash, yet others like Hamid Mir and Ansar Abbasi with information about a particular politician..

    What a sorry state of affairs.

  312. @ Samad

    Its ironical that you want the lambs to have a voice, and that too against some very dogmatic wolves. At this point of our history, we can’t afford to think of ourselves as pitiable lambs. I appreciate what you did when you refused the award from the US ambassador, but Harvard is still on. And this practically sums up our dilemma.

    As a nation, we never really existed in complete harmony and the present situation is a culmination of the fruition of seeds that we have been scattering all around. Lambs or no lambs, we have a history of denial and that is going to stay with us. Just read some of the comments on your article and you will reconsider your connections with this mess of a country we have become!

    Our problems today have no connection with world politics; we need to educate our people, we need to ensure safety, we need to ensure some sort of economic stability, we need to ensure justice, and perhaps some room for self expression. And where exactly are we spending our energies? We are the self-proclaiomed enemies of ‘Kafirs’- and if i take Mr. Sufi (Can someone tell me what this perticular Mr. Sufi thinks of other Sufis, the real Sufis like Bullhe Shah, Data Sahib, even Shah Jamal- I can bet he has a ‘kafir’ fatwa for all of them. Onother fucking irony of our existence!) litrally, we are up against 98% population of this planet… and we are not even jews 🙂

    I dont care what USA has planned for us. They are never going to be anybody’s friends. We have to get our own solution to this, and this is where i agree with you. If all comes down to shouting back at this bloody ignorance and saying NO to this tribal, uneducated, desperate, vindicative version of Islam— i am on. But, another effort is needed to o getting our targets right. If we keep justifying Taleban, and Mullahs, and Usamas, and keep hiding behind ‘drones’ and sympathies for Narco- Jehad, we are done( by the way these drones are cleaning the mess we ourselves can’t, I fear the day when there will be drones flying over Lahore in search of these idiots.. we are halpless now, we will be helpless then, again). I hope all who come from or live in Pakistan, can someday come to this understanding that they want this country to exist and prosper because having it they have a much better chance to thrive than by not having it.

  313. @Tolstoy
    “I appreciate what you did when you refused the award from the US ambassador, but Harvard is still on. And this practically sums up our dilemma.”

    Well said!

  314. @nota

    “I appreciate what you did when you refused the award from the US ambassador, but Harvard is still on. And this practically sums up our dilemma.”

    Well said!

    Why you always appreciate/encourage personal attacks??

  315. dildar said:
    @nota

    “I appreciate what you did when you refused the award from the US ambassador, but Harvard is still on. And this practically sums up our dilemma.”

    Well said!

    Why you always appreciate/encourage personal attacks??

    @dildar
    It wasn’t meant to be a personal attack. I am referring to the irony of our existance.

  316. @Tolstoy
    “It wasn’t meant to be a personal attack. I am referring to the irony of our existance.”

    And I took it as such….so didn’t feel @dildars accusation was worth a response.

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